Game News GB Feature: Icewind Dale: The Past, Present, and Future

[jagged-jimmy]

Re: GB Feature: Icewind Dale: The Past, Present, and Future

GameBanshee <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/105477-gb-feature-icewind-dale-the-past-present-and-future-editorial.html">has an editorial piece</a> on the Past, Present and possible Future of the Icewind Dale Series. Here are a few snippets:

Today certainly seems like the perfect time to bring back the isometric and tactical gameplay the series is known for, and not at all unrealistic either.

Haha, oh wow. Dream on fag.

 

[KevinV12000]

Icewind Dale I and II never seem to get the respect they are due. Unlike BG, here you had the opportunity to construct an entire party, something I think that appeals to most CRPG fans. The magic items were unique and quirky, with some really well-written back stories. The adventures were of a classic DnD variety. Tastes vary, but I really don't see what's not to love here for a computer gamer.

If Obsidian re-visits this (and I seem to remember good ol' F.U. himself saying Obsidian would love the chance) I think it stands a very good chance to be a great game.

Hell, at this point, any *computer* game done with any respect for the genre is something to hope for, and the now-apparently-expected virtual gay sex is just frosting......

 

[sea]

Interface IMPROVMENTS in NWN ?

It was a clunky and soulless, ugly piece of shit IMO. The Interface in, especially IWDII worked just fine..

I don't understand the comment on Pixelhunting either, you just press altt or shift and it shows everything laying on ground/hidden doors (if a character noticed it) and so on...

Ugly. Yes? Other things however I appreciate. For instance, menus that didn't block out the entire screen, multiple windows open at once, mini-map which was auto-marked with important locations (godsend), dozens more quick-slots with modifier keys (much easier spell management), the mouse gesture menus which could become second nature with a bit of practice, and the 3D camera helps give a better sense of space and orientation in my opinion (unless you play the Infinity Engine games at high resolutions, the tiny window into the game world you got could be extremely disorienting).

And yeah, pixel-hunting was made better with object highlighting, but a lot of the time it felt necessary, and it was easy to miss secrets without hovering the mouse over every single floor grate, barrel, brick in the wall, etc. on the off chance it contains a useful item, or a switch to press, or something (especially as not everything is highlighted). I played through Icewind Dale II once before, and am going through right now (years later), and on both plays I got stuck at the same spot - you have to use a crank on a torture device to open a door, which isn't highlighted at all, and there are about five other similar devices in the same spot which are just for decoration. Of course, Planescape and the original Baldur's Gate don't even have highlighting built in, so it's made even worse there.

 

[thesisko]

Haha, oh wow. Dream on fag.

What's the deal with this retarded pessimism? Haven't you noticed that dozens of absolutely horrible games are made all the time, isometric or otherwise. Why would a well made tactical CRPG do worse than "ArcaniA: Fall of Seratif", "Disciples III"?

And isometric doesn't mean 2D graphics from 1998, "Dungeon Siege III" was isometric.

 

[Surf Solar]

For instance, menus that didn't block out the entire screen

I actually liked that.

multiple windows open at once

Didn't bother me at all - I don't need more than one window open at the same time.

mini-map which was auto-marked with important locations (godsend)

IE always allowed to place your own markers - if people are too lazy to use this... :/

dozens more quick-slots with modifier keys (much easier spell management)

here I agree, even though it only becomes annoying at higher levels /w dozens of spells.

the mouse gesture menus which could become second nature with a bit of practice

Hehe, I rather prefer clicking buttons /w the mouse or a quickbutton on the keyboard, but I see where you're coming from.

and the 3D camera helps give a better sense of space and orientation in my opinion (unless you play the Infinity Engine games at high resolutions, the tiny window into the game world you got could be extremely disorienting).

Again, I actually prefer fixed cameras... It allows for more unique and beautiful looking maps (adding such detailed stuff in a 3d enviroment is nigh to impossible), the "window" to the gameworld with the interface around is just perfect for an interface in my opinion..

And yeah, pixel-hunting was made better with object highlighting, but a lot of the time it felt necessary, and it was easy to miss secrets without hovering the mouse over every single floor grate, barrel, brick in the wall, etc. on the off chance it contains a useful item, or a switch to press, or something (especially as not everything is highlighted). Of course, Planescape and the original Baldur's Gate don't have such a feature so it's made even worse there.

Planescape DID have this highlighting AFAIR - and I never really needed to "guess" in either of the IE games - the only "pixelhunting" that I know of in those games was in BG I with this Ankheg Plate armor hidden on some cornfield, or various gems hidden behind trees etc - but they were supposed to be hidden and it required some luck/ looking around... I don't recall any other occasion where I really raged that a hotspot couldn't be found - everything was placed rather obvious.

So, it's all a matter of opinion, not really "facts".

 

[Volourn]

NWN's interface is the best evar. Fuck off to all those who dispute this fact.

 

[J_C]

NWN's interface is the best evar. Fuck off to all those who dispute this fact.

It looks shitty FFS! Like you are navigating in Windows.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Haha, oh wow. Dream on fag.

What's the deal with this retarded pessimism? Haven't you noticed that dozens of absolutely horrible games are made all the time, isometric or otherwise. Why would a well made tactical CRPG do worse than "ArcaniA: Fall of Seratif", "Disciples III"?

And isometric doesn't mean 2D graphics from 1998, "Dungeon Siege III" was isometric.

You missed the point. The suits do not want to "do well" or "better then the worst game". Its either closer to oblivion or it's not worth the time. You probably day dreaming to often. A turn-based DnD CRPG which is not dumbed down is not gonna happen with any major publisher.

What's the deal with this retarded optimism? Played any tactical turn-based games recently?

 

[Stinger]

And if IWD were to come back it'd probably be some browser/mobile game since both Chapman and Sawyer are convinced a game of its type wouldn't get funded otherwise.

Chapman thinks that no one would play something like IWD3 on the PC because Skyrim is so much more awesome. Instead, he thinks that it should sell on iPad for $15.

No he said that that an Apple store type of game would be an easier sell to publishers because it's a much more flexible market and a 2d tactical turn based game would have a much greater appeal there as it wouldn't have to compete with AAA RPGs (and yes you need to consider that a) some rpg gamers are more casual and will take Skyrim over IWD and b) a publisher doesn't know the difference and will consider rpg gamers to be a single audience more easily swayed by a huge blockbuster over a lower profile indie type title).

As long as it was also available on PC and had the same level of depth as the original crpgs it shouldn't be a problem which other platforms it was available on.

Of course you were being an utter cock in that thread and just ignoring anything anyone actually said so you probably didn't notice this.

 

[Jaesun]

And if IWD were to come back it'd probably be some browser/mobile game since both Chapman and Sawyer are convinced a game of its type wouldn't get funded otherwise.

Chapman thinks that no one would play something like IWD3 on the PC because Skyrim is so much more awesome. Instead, he thinks that it should sell on iPad for $15.

No he said that that an Apple store type of game would be an easier sell to publishers because it's a much more flexible market and a 2d tactical turn based game would have a much greater appeal there as it wouldn't have to compete with AAA RPGs (and yes you need to consider that a) some rpg gamers are more casual and will take Skyrim over IWD and b) a publisher doesn't know the difference and will consider rpg gamers to be a single audience more easily swayed by a huge blockbuster over a lower profile indie type title).

Chapman is quite correct. It all boils down to Publishers and their Marketing Departments have no proof or evidence that a 2D turn based cRPG is at all profitable on the PC format. As an iPhone app, yes. Approaching a Publisher with a PC and iPhone platform is going to be a hard sell. And too expensive. Obsidian already has the Onyx Engine for the PC and Consoles.

BUT with the Onyx Engine basically finished, they can keep costs down a bit as now all they would have to do is re-tool the engine and add new assets. A less expensive 2D cRPG on PC (and possibly consoles) game could possibly be more appealing to a Publisher. But still, it's going to be a very tough sell. Probably the exact same reason the Seven Dwarves project got canned.

Of course you were being an utter cock in that thread and just ignoring anything anyone actually said so you probably didn't notice this.

Obvious shit poster is obvious?

 

[thesisko]

No he said that that an Apple store type of game would be an easier sell to publishers because it's a much more flexible market and a 2d tactical turn based game would have a much greater appeal there as it wouldn't have to compete with AAA RPGs (and yes you need to consider that a) some rpg gamers are more casual and will take Skyrim over IWD and b) a publisher doesn't know the difference and will consider rpg gamers to be a single audience more easily swayed by a huge blockbuster over a lower profile indie type title).

It would have to compete with "Angry Birds" and "Cut the Rope" instead. iPhone owners don't use their device for indepth gaming. The only thing publishers would pay for is a throwaway casual RPG that can be consumed in 5 minutes chunks, preferably with in-game transactions. There's no indication that a niche hardcore game in any genre has ever achieved massive success as an iPhone/iPad exclusive.

And if publishers and the public are so retarded that they can't see the massive difference between Skyrim and IWD then they should change the genre of IWD, since fucking "Dawn of War II" resembles it more than Skyrim does. IWD was an RTS where you ordered your squad around, not a first person hack n' slash.

It all boils down to Publishers and their Marketing Departments have no proof or evidence that a 2D turn based cRPG is at all profitable on the PC format.

Other tactical games are profitable on the PC format. What defines an RPG these days? Oh, right...nothing, every other game calls itself an RPG. Obsidian's problem is that U.S. publishers only pay for multi-platform action titles.

BUT with the Onyx Engine basically finished, they can keep costs down a bit as now all they would have to do is re-tool the engine and add new assets. A less expensive 2D cRPG on PC (and possibly consoles) game could possibly be more appealing to a Publisher. But still, it's going to be a very tough sell. Probably the exact same reason the Seven Dwarves project got canned.

Why all this talk about 2D? 3D with tiling assets is cheaper to produce than "Infinity"-style 2D rendered backdrops.

Anyway, I have nothing against making a game available on many platforms - that's great. My issue with Chapman is that he makes it sound like he wants to create an iPhone game that appeals to Skyrim fans that don't have a PC/console game nearby and have to "settle" for whatever RPG is on the iPhone. Such a game would be nothing like IWD.

 

[Roguey]

Probably the exact same reason the Seven Dwarves project got canned.

That was an Unreal Engine 3 action-RPG. I've been told it was canned because Obsidian had no idea what it was doing, and after seeing Alpha Protocol (which went into development after, since Georgia comes after New Jersey) I believe it.

It would have to compete with "Angry Birds" and "Cut the Rope" instead. iPhone owners don't use their device for indepth gaming. The only thing publishers would pay for is a throwaway casual RPG that can be consumed in 5 minutes chunks, preferably with in-game transactions. There's no indication that a niche hardcore game in any genre has ever achieved massive success as an iPhone/iPad exclusive.

Avadon has been a great success on the iPad and Vogel's said a lot of people have emailed him telling him how they really wanted a slightly-more-in-depth RPG to play on it and were glad to have it.

 

[thesisko]

Avadon has been a great success on the iPad and Vogel's said a lot of people have emailed him telling him how they really wanted a slightly-more-in-depth RPG to play on it and were glad to have it.

I'm sure Steam and the Mac App store were also "great successes" for Vogel. Vogel and Obsidian's definition of "great success" are not exactly on the same scale.

 

[Relay]

Of course, Neverwinter Nights also looked like shit, but again, I was speaking "at the time" when 3D was all the rage.

Most 3d games looked like shit. I'd rather replay an infinity engine game than replay Morrowind, for example. NWN, Morrowind, FPSes like Half Life, I feel that early 3d didn't age well compared to 2d games. It's still fun to replay old SNES and Genesis games but I feel some kind of disgust looking at the environment of a game like HL1.

Hell even NWN2 looks like shit with its more modern engine. Comparison :

Which is easier on the eyes ?

 

[Surf Solar]

So much agreed, Relay.

 

[Volourn]

NWN2. No contest.

 

[Cynic]

I have to agree with Volourn on this one. If you had shown ToEE vs NWN2 the result might have been different, but in this case, yeah NWN2 wins.

 

[Excidium]

At least you don't have to adjust your camera every 5 seconds in BG2.

 

[Cynic]

NWN2's camera is fine once you get used to it, you just need to set it up in the way that feels most comfortable to you. After a while I had no issues at all. It is annoying at first though that's true.

 

[Surf Solar]

I have to agree with Volourn on this one. If you had shown ToEE vs NWN2 the result might have been different, but in this case, yeah NWN2 wins.

Atleast BGII as shown in the screen got the lighting correct, compared to no enviromental lighting at all in NWN where everything looks like randomly thrown together toy pieces.

Tell me, does this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/kuldahar.jpg


look better than this

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD/Walk ... ldahar.gif


You're a as I know from the ToeE thread, but I found the above statement pretty derpy.. Both scenes above are supposed to show the very same, btw. And the first one is even using the DA:O engine, which is newer than the IE one.

 

[Cynic]

Art direction in NWN2 is a bit more kooky fantastical than BG that's for sure, did you see Onyx engine for Dungeon Siege 3? I thought it looked great, some of the environments were a bit uninspired, but it looked nice.

edit: also that Dragon Age shot looked terribly washed out to me, mine looked way better than that on max settings.

 

[Shannow]

I adjusted fine to NWN2's camera once I got used to it, I found a set up that feelt comfortable to me. After a while I had no issues at all. I found it annoying at first though that's true.

fixed. (Because the camera remained a constant irritant for me and all different settings were just different kinds of shitty.)

And on the shown pics BG2 looks far better, IMO. I find it hard to believe anybody would think otherwise.
In my first hand experience, though, I found that NWN2 could keep up if zoomed out far enough. The first 3D game I considered on par with the far older 2D ones graphically (though the engine, utility, camera, etc were shit and it still looked like crap when zoomed in.)

 

[Volrath]

I have to agree with Volourn on this one. If you had shown ToEE vs NWN2 the result might have been different, but in this case, yeah NWN2 wins.

 

[Cynic]

I dunno, maybe I am just fucking shitless with the IE.

 

[Relay]

I have to agree with Volourn on this one. If you had shown ToEE vs NWN2 the result might have been different, but in this case, yeah NWN2 wins.

Atleast BGII as shown in the screen got the lighting correct, compared to no enviromental lighting at all in NWN where everything looks like randomly thrown together toy pieces.

At least environments in BG2 were far more unique and inspired than in NWN2, letting you feel like you're truly embarking onto a long journey. But NWN2 isn't the worst offender, I have to admit that Bioware did a lot worse with DA2 that is basically 100% copy pasta.
And the fact that BG2 never zooms in at all (NWN2 will do it no matter what in cinematic dialogue) lets you skip on looking at the most unrefined textures, uncanny valley of badly done 3d animation and so on and instead rely entirely on your imagination while giving you a little inspiration with its abstract view, writing and portraits. The same goes for most of the games of that era, I have to say, with PST being a truly nice gem in that dept. Games like BG2 and PST relied on your brain to make them come alive, while games like NWN2 want to look like interactive movies, and fail at that (because even the big budgets 3d games still have ton of ugly looking, low res textures here and there. And I'd rather read a good description of an environment, letting my imagination do its job, than look at that kind of piece of shit. I can't believe people who keep on repeating the "Games are getting so realistic" fad that began with Crysis. No, they don't when you play them, it only works on screenshots at the right angle, place, lighting and choice of objets. It still looks fucked up if you pay attention.)

There IS a way to make 3d games look nice though. But it only works if you forfeit realism and embrace a comic-style look. Look at Zelda Wind Waker. Whether you like the style or not, you cannot deny the fact that the game aged much better than any other game of its era. Pump the resolution in the Dolphin emulator and it still looks pretty good, MUCH better than its own successors. You don't have this nasty feeling of looking at botched textures when a game uses that kind of look. It's older than Half Life 2 but doesn't look half as nasty as HL2 did when you paid attention to the details. Twilight Princess was a downgrade on WW, and the same goes for Skyward Sword.