Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Review GOG Plays The Age of Decadence

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,584
for the people who played the beta, is it possible to build a thief like char with good speech skills or am I then relatively fucked in the combat?

There are alot of thieving related skills that come in useful (stealing, lockpicking, sneak, traps) so if you're focusing on those AND putting points into speech related skills, that doesn't leave much left over for combat. You can definitely do it to some extent but probably not without doing some meta-gamey stuff to figure out the skill checks.

What I'm most interesting in finding out about AOD is whether it becomes possible to diversify your character a bit as the game progresses. It will really depend on how quickly the skill check requirements accelerate and how much harder the combat encounters become as the game goes on. I'm hoping things loosen up a bit as the game goes on but not too much. Hard to say where that sweet spot is.......
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
for the people who played the beta, is it possible to build a thief like char with good speech skills or am I then relatively fucked in the combat?

There are alot of thieving related skills that come in useful (stealing, lockpicking, sneak, traps) so if you're focusing on those AND putting points into speech related skills, that doesn't leave much left over for combat. You can definitely do it to some extent but probably not without doing some meta-gamey stuff to figure out the skill checks.

What I'm most interesting in finding out about AOD is whether it becomes possible to diversify your character a bit as the game progresses. It will really depend on how quickly the skill check requirements accelerate and how much harder the combat encounters become as the game goes on. I'm hoping things loosen up a bit as the game goes on but not too much. Hard to say where that sweet spot is.......


as long as i dont have to fight (aside from maybe here and there) i will have no problem in beeing a sucker in combat.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Ah well, at least they do make good comments and go beyond the "died in the first fight; game sucks", but the repeat of "RPG game" is kinda disturbing.

Possibly not their first language.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Well, personally I still think single-character TB is boring and giving you control over companions would infintely enhance AoD's combat experience. It's not so much that the system is weak, it's that the system does not play out its greatest strength - tactical combat is even more tactical if you have more than just a single unit at your disposal, which would allow for more varied group tactics. It's not that the combat is bad, it's actually quite solid, but it'd be even more fun with controllable companions.

TLDR: AoD is boring. No buy.
 

Mangoose

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
26,491
Location
I'm a Banana
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
I think there can be ways that single-character TB can be made interesting, but it'd take a lot of thinking outside of the box. I think I would start out by thinking about emulating the resources of multiple characters into one character with multiple resources. Positioning of course you can't do much about. But outside of positioning, you can try to "represent" as much of multiple characters as possible with one character. Probably too late for AOD but it's been on my mind.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
I think there can be ways that single-character TB can be made interesting, but it'd take a lot of thinking outside of the box. I think I would start out by thinking about emulating the resources of multiple characters into one character with multiple resources. Positioning of course you can't do much about. But outside of positioning, you can try to "represent" as much of multiple characters as possible with one character. Probably too late for AOD but it's been on my mind.

Summoning.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,349
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, personally I still think single-character TB is boring and giving you control over companions would infintely enhance AoD's combat experience. It's not so much that the system is weak, it's that the system does not play out its greatest strength - tactical combat is even more tactical if you have more than just a single unit at your disposal, which would allow for more varied group tactics. It's not that the combat is bad, it's actually quite solid, but it'd be even more fun with controllable companions.

TLDR: AoD is boring. No buy.

No, it's actually a good game. The combat just isn't its strong point, but neither was it in Arcanum which is my favourite RPG ever, nor was it in Fallout.
 

Longshanks

Augur
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
897
Location
Australia.
Yeah this is shaping up to be the ultimate Fallout-like RPG, including the one bad decision of Fallout and Arcanum - non-controllable party members (although in Arcanum it was okay when you used real-time mode).
VD has his reasons - I think he said he prefers when you play your character and the henchmen aren't just slaves to your will - but from a gameplay perspective, it's a bad decision.
I disagree that it's a bad decision. As a game with a primary focus on role-playing and heavy C&C going single character was always the best option. It may be a sub-optimal choice for combat but it's the best choice for roleplaying which in this case trumps combat.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
20,872
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Dunno would jizzz my pants for AoD like game with party mechanics from SOZ: :obviously: Patrician-Diplomat, His easter sex slave Rogue, Savant-Steward and 3 body guards. Alll characters specialized and all able to help the party. For added challenge some missions either solo or in two 3 characters parties like in Kotor 2.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
have you tried potion buffs?

5383859261_41df614554.jpg
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,594
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
He's already said the next game will be party-based several times, you don't have to keep repeating it.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
He asked about an AoD party based game. Well, we're planning to make a dungeon crawler set in one of the prison mines mentioned in the game, but it would be a combat game, not a full scale RPG.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
He asked about an AoD party based game. Well, we're planning to make a dungeon crawler set in one of the prison mines mentioned in the game, but it would be a combat game, not a full scale RPG.
And how a full scale party based RPG? AOD3 released in 2025. :troll:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
When are you going to make the SCI-FI game? :(
The combat game won't take long. For example, we put together the combat demo in 3 months. Testing took 7 months, but the combat system is well tested now. It would take me no more than a month to write linear dialogues. Then I can start working on a full scale project.

We were thinking of expanding the combat demo, switching it to the new engine and system, and offering for 4 bucks (free to those who have pre-ordered). I wrote a "15 fights" storyline that takes place between the arena fights - you're asked to protect a tavern from the local thugs who are charging protection money, things get out of hand, more local businesses fall under your roof, so now you're the one charging the protection money, the thieves guild who was running this racket before steps in and so on. Took me 2 weeks, we could have put it together in 2-3 months considering that we have all the assets, systems, and experience. Decided not to - a hard sell for people who are waiting for the game.

The reason AoD took so long it's because it's infinitely easier to do linear fights with some atmospheric dialogues than to do seven drastically different questlines with a shitload of choices that demand consequences. Many times it was like a puzzle - how do I design and write a quest in such a way that it fits all the parallel questlines, provides different options, offer short and long term consequences, and provides consequences for previously made choices.

We made a standard "noobs want to make a game, noobs go for an ambitious game because hey why not?" mistake. It's a miracle that we didn't give up years ago.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I'd buy an extended combat demo, I really enjoyed that - to the point I stopped playing demos so I wouldn't spoil the game. Except now instead of being the only water for a thousand miles in the RPG desert, after all the Kickstarter shit AoD is gonna be the wafer thin mint to Mr. Creosote
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,349
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
A release on Thursday 2012 would really have helped, now AoD has a lot of competition on Thursday 2013.

Then again, it might benefit from the revival of the genre, it probably renewed the interest of some people who would've thought it dead.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,098
Location
Yemen / India
I think there can be ways that single-character TB can be made interesting, but it'd take a lot of thinking outside of the box. I think I would start out by thinking about emulating the resources of multiple characters into one character with multiple resources. Positioning of course you can't do much about. But outside of positioning, you can try to "represent" as much of multiple characters as possible with one character. Probably too late for AOD but it's been on my mind.

I've been thinking about that myself for some time, though my conclusions on the topic probably wouldn't sway popular opinion around here. Generally combat, tb or otherwise, seems to boil down to resource management; making your opponents waste resources while keeping your own economy safe, or at the very least making sure to stay ahead in terms of expended resources per turn. In the most basic scenario you'd just be standing there, taking turns in whacking each other until whichever one joined the battle with the biggest gun, that is stats, skills and equipment, is declared victor and goes on his merry way. Sometimes there are various trade-offs to be considered, like for instance a stun ability that does less damage, which is a fairly generic defensive measure, or an aimed shot, which is a gamble between doing overall more damage p. ap and missing your intended target entirely -- y'know, stuff like that -- but for the most part we just go for whatever does the most damage and try to shut down priority targets as quickly as possible.

Now, we have the option of building on that in a number of different ways to create a more strategic 1-char tb combat experience. Giving the player more resources to manage within one character, aspects of a human(oid) body that drain with different combat actions, such as a bar for each character stat, leaving some abilities unavailable as the bars become depleted in their entirety. Of course, you would also have attacks that focus on draining different stats, which might present the player with a difficult choice of resource conservation v.s pacifying the threat of the opponent. There might be something to such an approach, but I'm fairly skeptical. To me, there seems to be a risk of turning combat encounters into number-crunching segments, where your mission mainly revolves around comparing character's stats, but I guess it just goes to show that character systems alone aren't enough to create a good combat system.

One option, though not one I'd personally be too eager about suggesting, is a more 'puzzle-game' like approach. Or at least, that's what I'd call it, though it's actually a fairly good reflection of the direction taken by many strategy games. Suppose we give the player a ton of abilities that he can use during a turn, abilities that basically act as counters to one-another with varying degrees of efficiency, and then pit the player against enemies with the same kind of abilities or variations on the same theme. Essentially it breaks the combat down to selecting the option that best corresponds to the obstacle presented by your opponent, which really is an ever-present aspect of the overall challenge, but as the main focus of combat strategy amounts to little more than fitting the right shape into the right slot. In a rt-environment the actual challenge would come from accurately interpreting your enemy's action and having to perform your counter-action in a timely manner and under pressure, but in tb the challenge might instead stem from an increased amount of more appropriate shapes to choose from, actions with consequences that carry over for more than one turn or even stack and maintaining the right priorities, in particular when fighting multiple units at once.

The reason I don't like this approach, although aspects of the idea itself seem inescapable when it comes to combat, is that the most meaningful iterations of this system tend to oversimplify the simulation. With roshambo-style hard counters you're narrowing down the list of options to only a few viable alternatives, making it a mundane task for players to select the right counter once they know the obstacle, albeit one absolutely vital to success. However, if you give the player a bigger number of equally viable options to counter an enemy action, in order to address this problem, then the choice of picking just the right counter becomes far less important. In part, I think, the saving grace of a design based on these principles would have to come from long-term consequences for the choice of 1 viable move over, say, 10 equally viable ones -- i.e stressing the player's ability to predict events several turns in advance.

With this in mind, the second option could be removing some of the abstraction in regards to what constitutes an action and redefining what a turn is meant to represent. A combat encounter could potentially be structured in such a way that several turns pass in preparation for an attack or a defensive measure, by giving actions perquisites which must be payed in advance in order for the action to be performed, kind of like channeling. In hand to hand combat you might, for instance, detect or predict that your opponent is charging up to close with your character and stab at his mid-section. If you managed to catch the signs early, your options to respond in an appropriate manner may be greater. A last-second response might involve raising your shield to block or deflecting his strike with your sword, while an early counter could involve anything from a well-prepared dodge and counter-attack to mid-strike shield bash knocking him off balance. So, while we still have numerous counter-actions involved, the weight here rests on timing and forethought, sort of how a spearman unit is a definite horseman counter in Civ, but unless you've built one in advance to being attacked you can kiss your polis goodbye.

I really like the idea of this sort of set-up, save for obvious practical considerations. For one, I'm rather worried that a sufficiently complex implementation of a system that strives for this kind of 1v1 combat would make combat encounters incredibly slow affairs. I mean, naturally one would have to cut down on hp-bloat to make this type of combat feasible, as unlike the average abstracted engagement in RPG's you'd actually be privy to the entire process behind the attack, meaning that both your opponent's and your character's options for actively avoiding damage increases dramatically. There's also a notable disjointedness in the time-frame within such a turn-based system, as the actions end up being segmented rather than in sync. What I'm trying to say is that having accurately deduced your opponent's next move, your move inherently consists of a delayed action, designated for a time-frame outside of your turn. It still works, sort of, as a turn-based system, but I'm getting the feeling that we aren't doing ourselves or tb combat any favors.

So, in conclusion, I'm actually more in favor of a phase-based system for tactical single-character rpg's. If abilities are presented as general actions rather than effects with abstract processes behind them, a single rotation of engagement and disengagement can involve a sufficient number of immediately important tactical decisions and options, while yet maintaining a pace that doesn't slow the game down too dramatically. With reaction times being modified by stats, you can have different lengths of phases for different types of characters as a phase-based simulation of action-points, which to me sounds like a pretty big deal by comparison, as characters going out of phase with one-another in itself creates a tactical challenge and forces disengagements or alternative strats. I really do think there's a lot of untapped potential here.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom