Gothic 3 has scaled loot and monsters!

[Nicolai]

The difference will be that it won't be easily modded in Gothic 3...

Mod tools are a crutch for bad designers.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Leveling as has been pointed out is not per se a bad idea. It depends on implementation. Still it's a surprise, the past Gothics had no need for it because they very successfully controlled your advancement on the map through monster difficulty and main quest progression. I think it can only mean that the map in G3 will be much more open than in the predecessors, and we will see how well they handle that.

And gothic has mod tools, just not very simple to use nor very powerful ones.

"Mod Tools are a crutch for bad designers"
Angry Codexer bullshit. That would only be true if designers deliberately take the easey way out because they release the tools. I don't think thats likely to have been the case with Oblivion that presumably aims to make most of its revenue from Console sales. As it is I find that a game with good modding tools (HL, , MW, NWN, O) tends to be a much better value than one without due to the additional content and the ability to customize the experience to your liking.

 

[suibhne]

Gothic I and II were both levelled. We've already discussed how they were levelled in these very forums, including why it worked much better than Oblivion. (And yes, everything was levelled - monsters, some NPCs, and some NPC gear.)

This whole thread is predicated on an ESF fanboy's fundamental ignorance of the Gothic system. Yay.

Gothic levelled spawn lists, not creatures themselves: Field Raiders are always lvl 8 and Shadowbeasts are always lvl 30 (just picking approximate numbers here). The difference is that there are more Shadowbeasts in Chapter 4 than in Chapter 1. NPCs also level, and in some cases their gear gets dramatically better - but only when there's a narrative reason for it (e.g., the Dragon Hunters). Futhermore, "levelling" in Gothic isn't procedural; everything is still hand-placed.

Bottom line: the levelling in Gothic is mixed with non-levelling, and it's all created by a game designer rather than a computer algorithm. I doubt PB will depart from that approach for Gothic III.

 

[Seven]

Yes, NPCs are getting stronger. They are even leveling - but in most cases not visible for the player. It's a "feature" of the game which we never mentioned in particular, although one can clearly see the effects.

You guys are fucking retards, how the fuck do you get scaled loot and enemies from this one line? He's saying that NPCs' get to level; this doesn't mean that monsters or even NPC's will scale to your level, nor does it mean that loot will scale to your level. The game will not be completable at level 1 like another game we know. I think that a half dozen people have earned illiterate status. But then again most of the idiots posting angst and bullshit are known Beth fanboys so we pretty much know they’re fucked in the head to start with.

 

[Elwro]

"Gothic levelled spawn lists, not creatures themselves: Field Raiders are always lvl 8 and Shadowbeasts are always lvl 30"
But remember that if you advance to the next chapter, exactly the same monsters appear regardless of your level. So I guess you could say that a Field Raider is lvl 8 but whether it is spawned somewhere or not has completely nothing to do with the PC's level.

 

[suibhne]

"Gothic levelled spawn lists, not creatures themselves: Field Raiders are always lvl 8 and Shadowbeasts are always lvl 30"
But remember that if you advance to the next chapter, exactly the same monsters appear regardless of your level. So I guess you could say that a Field Raider is lvl 8 but whether it is spawned somewhere or not has completely nothing to do with the PC's level.

The spawns are still "levelled", in a sense. But yes, they level based on the Chapter rather than the PC's level.

Anyway, "levelling" tends to mean procedural levelling, and in Gothic there's nothing procedural about it.

 

[Elwro]

Another small fact worth remembering is that in Gothics monsters of a given type always have exactly the same stats, so the notion of monster level would be at least dubious, useful for comparison only.
I'm beating a dead horse here because if you just say "Gothic levelled spawn lists" people can think it'd be something similar to Morrowind, which also had such lists. The huge difference is that in Gothic PC's level is irrelevant for the type of creature spawned. The critters are spawned at fixed points in the world and in the story, only a few times in the whole game.
OK, enough on the subject from me.

 

[Lumpy]

So do they in Oblivion. A rat is always a rat (besides when a rat is a cat is a bat is a rat - wabbajack wabbajack wabbajack) - but more powerful creatures replace older ones. Morrowind also had leveled lists, but not nearly as extreme as Oblivion's sound.

 

[Elwro]

Morrowind has a "Leveled Creature" object type - it calculates which specific creature is spawned according to the player's level. The higher PC's level, the stronger the creature.
In Gothic nothing like that ever happens. The world does not "adapt" to PC's level. If you encounter a Snapper in Gothic 2 while being level 5 and flee, you can level up a few times and return being sure the creature didn't morph into something else.

If you already understand what I'm saying here, sorry for the useless post.

But honestly, "scaled loot" of all things? Did you even read PB's post before creating this thread?

 

[suibhne]

So do they in Oblivion. A rat is always a rat (besides when a rat is a cat is a bat is a rat - wabbajack wabbajack wabbajack) - but more powerful creatures replace older ones. Morrowind also had leveled lists, but not nearly as extreme as Oblivion's sound.

Oblivion uses a combo of both approaches, but it's mostly not what you describe. Rats, Mudcrabs, Wolves, etc. don't level (at least not noticeably - I haven't checked them in the CS); they're just replaced by bigger and badder meanies (or not replaced, as the case may be - I still find Rats in dungeons and Mudcrabs on shores). Otoh, about half of the critter list levels: for example, Trolls, Goblins, Minotaurs, and Ogres all level with you basically up to infinity. (Goblins and Vampires even start with you around lvl 1 and scale pretty much to the 85th story; Ogres and Trolls start higher and don't appear till you're closer to lvl 10 or so, but level with you from that point.) More than half of the "NPC" list is also levelled, which includes Bandits/Marauders, Necromancers, Vampires, and Dremora.

It's made more complicated by the fact that some of these have sub-types which spawn at different frequencies depending on level. Valkynaz are the highest Dremora, Churl the lowest. Goblins have a similar hierarchy, and some Minotaurs instead become Minotaur Lords at high levels. This doesn't change the fact that, in most of these cases (possibly all), the sub-types level with you just as plainly as Ogres and Trolls.

Those that level do so in strength and skill. They also level in gear, so they'll end up with Dwarven/Mithril and finally Ebony/Glass/Daedric (at relatively low levels - I think full sets of Daedric start showing up around lvl 22 or 25). Dremora have their own levelling loot - basically starting with Dremora gear and moving up to Daedric.

 

[Lumpy]

(or not replaced, as the case may be - I still find Rats in dungeons and Mudcrabs on shores)

That's because which monster appears is random, your level affects the likeliness of each type.

 

[HardCode]

Lumpy, next time you think you are posting a, "AHAHAHA CODEX! IN ur FACE!" type thread you need to do two things:

1. Take Bethesda's cock out of your mouth.
2. Read and comprehend that which what you are going to post.

Or do you just like making yourself look stupid? Anyone with 3rd grade reading comprehension skill can clearly see this is not the same as Oblivion's broken system. Sure, NPCs can level up like the PC, but this does not mean the world levels up ... and at the same exact time and pace.

 

[suibhne]

That's because which monster appears is random, your level affects the likeliness of each type.

And that's like Gothic...how, again?

Oh, right. Not at all.

 

[Lumpy]

It wasn't an "In your face" thread. I hate scaling when it is done excessively, and I thought you might be interested in knowing that Gothic has something similar. Still, Morrowind also had scaled loot and monsters, without it being annoying, and hardly noticable.

 

[suibhne]

It wasn't an "In your face" thread. I hate scaling when it is done excessively, and I thought you might be interested in knowing that Gothic has something similar. Still, Morrowind also had scaled loot and monsters, without it being annoying, and hardly noticable.

Makes sense. But the Gothic bit is nothing new - Gothic has always used this system, and it's comical to see ESF peeps act like it's a revelation.

I agree re. Morrowind. The levelled spawn lists were painfully obvious (Golden Saints showing up precisely at lvl 17 or whatever...), but I never really noticed levelled loot or even individual critters. Quite the contrary, in fact: the cool loot (Glass, Daedric, enchanted arrows, etc.) was really only available through risky and sometimes pretty extraordinary dungeon crawls, and that was one of the most rewarding aspects of the game for me.

 

[Elwro]

I hate scaling when it is done excessively, and I thought you might be interested in knowing that Gothic has something similar.

I still don't see how it is similar since the only precise info is that NPCs will level. If the rest is also like in the previous games, it'll be so that when it comes to monsters and loot everything is constant, defined by the designers and doesn't react in any way to any of the PC's stats. So much for "scaled monsters & loot".

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

I dunno, it would be kind of lame if all of those people working, hunting, and practicing martial arts NEVER IMPROVED.

Amen! Playing japanese adventure-rpgs where scaling does not occur, it becomes more apparent how easy it is to "exploit" power leveling... removing the challenge from the game as your character becomes so uber nothing can stop them.

Nothing is wrong with that, but it is more satisfying to become uber and still know if you don't play your hand right, you will go down.

 

[bryce777]

I dunno, it would be kind of lame if all of those people working, hunting, and practicing martial arts NEVER IMPROVED.

Amen! Playing japanese adventure-rpgs where scaling does not occur, it becomes more apparent how easy it is to "exploit" power leveling... removing the challenge from the game as your character becomes so uber nothing can stop them.

Nothing is wrong with that, but it is more satisfying to become uber and still know if you don't play your hand right, you will go down.

Some would improve, but the average would stay the same over time. It is not an exploit, it's called, er, improvement.

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

I dunno, it would be kind of lame if all of those people working, hunting, and practicing martial arts NEVER IMPROVED.

Amen! Playing japanese adventure-rpgs where scaling does not occur, it becomes more apparent how easy it is to "exploit" power leveling... removing the challenge from the game as your character becomes so uber nothing can stop them.

Nothing is wrong with that, but it is more satisfying to become uber and still know if you don't play your hand right, you will go down.

Some would improve, but the average would stay the same over time. It is not an exploit, it's called, er, improvement.

I see where you are coming from phrasing it like that, but part of the reason I've been moving away from Japanese-adventure games (rpg-lites?) was because I'm one of those players that would farm early earies before a boss fight and own them, rinse repeat...

Becomes pretty anti-climatic to reach the final uber boss and beat him in a meere 7 or 8 rounds because my team is on roids.

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

I dunno, it would be kind of lame if all of those people working, hunting, and practicing martial arts NEVER IMPROVED.

Amen! Playing japanese adventure-rpgs where scaling does not occur, it becomes more apparent how easy it is to "exploit" power leveling... removing the challenge from the game as your character becomes so uber nothing can stop them.

Nothing is wrong with that, but it is more satisfying to become uber and still know if you don't play your hand right, you will go down.

Some would improve, but the average would stay the same over time. It is not an exploit, it's called, er, improvement.

I see where you are coming from phrasing it like that, but part of the reason I've been moving away from Japanese-adventure games (rpg-lites?) was because I'm one of those players that would farm early earies before a boss fight and own them, rinse repeat...

Becomes pretty anti-climatic to reach the final uber boss and beat him in a meere 7 or 8 rounds because my team is on roids.

 

[LlamaGod]

Thats a side effect of bad design.

 

[bryce777]

Thats a side effect of bad design.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[aweigh]

There are a few JRPG's that only scale Boss monsters to your party's average level, to avoid that. I'm not saying it's brilliant game design, on the contrary, it's just a band-aid on bad design, but just felt it was worth mentioning. That I remember off the top of my head JRPG's that did this are: Lunar remake for PSX.

Of course since all this does is inflate HP/MP's on those bosses (since JRPG monsters don't have skill trees per se, or "gear" to speak of) it can create funny balance issues.

But Oblivion's shtick is just ridiculous. You'll run into NPC thugs wearing daedric armor and trying to rob you for 100 gold. Zombies, which are one of the very first enemies you encounter (second if I'm not mistaken), get tougher instead of easier as you go up in levels. It's crazy.

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

The difference will be that it won't be easily modded in Gothic 3...

Mod tools are a crutch for bad designers.

Gothic doesn't need no stinkin mod tools.

Mod tools actually extend the life expectancy of a title and offers the benefits of new functionality and new worlds using a pre-existing engine.

Look at the Lazarus Project for Dungeon Siege, the fact that people still play Half-Life (one of the best FPS games ever created, and quite possibly of all time) thanks to the numerous total conversions, new game types, etc. that were possible because Valve was willing to share. The same can be said for Quake, the Unreal series - hell even Max Payne.

Look what is going on with Half-Life 2 - thanks to MOD TOOLS there are tons of new games coming out using the steam engine... e.g. (http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/) ...

If you browse through the list, there isn't a single addon that enhances Half-Life 2 (because it is damn near perfect) but they are using mod tools to create new games and new worlds with the engine. There are RTS games, a few RPGs, a third person tactical shooter and a naval simulation all created based off of Half-Life 2 because the developers were nice enough to include mod tools...

Oh and many of the more ambitious mod developers (I guess thanks to the lazy developers at valve based on that comment) are actually getting paid if their mod makes it to Steam's list.

So mod tools are not a crutch for bad designers. A better statement would be "Some bad designers just use mod tools as a crutch." Latter is more accurate.

 

[Nicolai]

Indeed, I doubt that I would have bothered keeping Half-Life installed for some 7 years straight if it hadn't been for all the great mods.