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Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    If I want to take over Canada as the US and preemptively invest in a strong enough navy as to keep the UK from landing if they do join the war against me, do I have to invade Britain nonetheless and force the UK to capitulate or can I just annex Canada without being stuck in an endless war across the pond?
     
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  2. Stavrophore Prophet

    Stavrophore
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    You need to defeat UK. And then someone else, if they are strong enough and joined allies xd
     
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  3. shywn Learned

    shywn
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    There's a glaring problem with naval XP as well: You get loads of if you're in an evenly matched fight. But you get only a pittance if one side is overpowered. Submarines vs convoys? One side is overpowered. Escort fleet vs submarines? One side is overpowered. Strike force vs escort fleet? One side is overpowered. Only strike force vs strike force nets you decent XP, but even then still barely enough to XP-boost one tech.

    I toned down my naval XP requirements via defines.lua, just to be able to design a goddamn ship during the war.

    But decisive battles aren't really that bad. Ships, at least the bigger ones, usually don't die. They'll have to spend months at a drydock for repairs perhaps, they might lose their experience, but they usually survive.
     
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  4. sser Arcane Cuck Developer

    sser
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    Ironically, I've been quite enjoying the naval combat. There's a lot of weirdo UI to work around, but once I figured it out a lot of the headache went away. A huge one is to make sure your fleets have their danger thresholds set right. So have the scouting teams to basically never engage, and even my strike forces I basically left at 'medium' so they didn't get in over their heads anywhere. In the research tree, I would prioritize the fire control techs that greatly reduce your chances of receiving critical blows. Pretty sure those are what knock out the heavies when they could have disengaged.

    The aircraft carriers I think you can only max at 3, but I broke it on occasion. You get penalized 20% of your flight, but if you bring in a carrier with 100 planes I don't think it matters much. Battleships are still strong as hell and probably one of the reasons why the US Navy bulldozes. Without the historical attack on Pearl Harbor, you're left with an enormous fleet of battleships, some of them fairly 'modern' for the era. My battleships were still trucking enemy fleets long into the war and I never broke them off - kept them as one big wrecking ball.

    Make sure your foreign ports are well protected. I had a fleet docking in like Guam or Wake Island and it got port striked and I lost a carrier. Pretty rough. Not that it matters as the U.S. -- you just shit out ships on the daily and grind the Japanese into dust.

    Actually design the ships. For example, I had destroyers made to scout and hunt subs. Heavy emphasis on speed, airplane recon, and depth charges. The destroyers I used as strike force screens mostly carried anti-air and eventually those guns that hit a little bit of everything.

    Finally conquered Europe as USA. Wasn't too difficult. America's industrial might is absolutely insane. Not sure if the AI cheats or what it's like to have thousands of bombers blowing up factories, ports, and refineries 24/7.

    Unfortunately, some sort of hate between Bulgaria and Luxembourg sparked this little doozy about 3days after the conclusion of fighting:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. Raghar Arcane

    Raghar
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    I looked at AI, and AI decided to keep US at 80 percent exports even when it needed that steel for making convoys, didn't bother to prioritize convoys to have convoys, and lacked steel for ships because of keeping 80 percent of steel in reserves for trade, even when only half was traded.

    It would probably obliterate the rest of the world, but without allocating steel to make transports, it didn't have more than 20 transports for all theirs troops.
     
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  6. sser Arcane Cuck Developer

    sser
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    I've noticed the AI sometimes flatlines. I had a game as USA I restarted cause Germany didn't bother to do much of anything.

    I can say as Germany myself I did have a game where the USA was aggressively involved, landing giant armies in North Africa, Albania, Italy, and France almost simultaneously.
     
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  7. Raghar Arcane

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    [​IMG]
    The result of xmass HoI4 as ComChi. As you can see EU got it's multicultural dream. Luckily for theirs population most of these countries are commie. UK for some reason decided to declare war against Russia before war with Germany was over.
     
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  8. shywn Learned

    shywn
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    And to answer my own question: Three is not enough, but four to six might be.

    A story of four fleets. Two minor ones, two major ones. Locale: Sea area North of New Guinea.

    Course of events:

    1. Have a fleet of three heavy cruisers (shown above) and 20-ish destroyers as screen act as the strike force. Let the Caustic guy command. (He was the best I had. Plus he had Cruiser Captain.)

    2. Set up 400 heavy fighters to patrol the skies to nullify any air superiority the enemy might get from the carriers.

    3. Have a single destroyer patrolling the seas doing reconnaissance work. (For some reason, my strike force would not budge unless I had full knowledge of the opposing fleet. Even though they were fully visible in combat!)

    4. Set up a new fleet of my oldest submarines, with a greenhorn level 1 admiral, to convoy raid the area. I had to lure the Japanese out somehow, right? The reason behind the admiral choice was to have my strike fleet's admiral take command when he arrived, due to his higher level.

    5. Their escort fleet arrives to protect the convoys. My submarines wisely start running away.

    6. My strike force starts out of New Guinea, heading to destroy the escort fleet. Luckily just slowly enough to not quite finish with the combat before the next step.

    7. Their carrier strike force arrives. It was 40-50 ships in size. To my surprise, most of its destroyer screen had been replaced with light cruisers, which stacked the odds heavily against me. Light cruisers are incredibly resilient as screens. To make matters worse, one of my three heavy cruisers (my pride of the fleet) had somehow been heavily damaged in the fight with the escort fleet and was already running away, with no way to override it.

    I had previously tested (when I had their strike force in sight) that I had to set my strike fleet to "always engage" for them to not run away screaming, and as soon as I could see their forces entering combat, that's what I did.

    My ships could not hold their own for too long, and had to run away but it was a victory nevertheless. Half of my screens are now at the bottom of the ocean, and most ended up there when they were trying to run away.

    I sunk two of their heavy cruisers, many light cruisers and many destroyers. Not enough to lower their screening efficiency below 95 % at any point, however. I sunk numerically more than they sunk mine, and also much more expensive ships than mine. It was a good trade.

    My heavy cruisers all survived, but need to spend a few months at a dockyard, and I'll be building two more, as well as replacing my sunk screens.


    As far as I can tell, the United States has not had a single clash with the Japanese fleets thus far. So this has all been a solo effort from the Netherlands.

    Also worthy of note, for some reason, the Japanese stopped trying to invade my territory navally a long time ago. I wouldn't have needed the elaborate set-up had they still been running invasion support missions with their navy. The AI works in mysterious ways.
     
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  9. Raghar Arcane

    Raghar
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    [​IMG]
    Yea, but well you need only few ships to deal with Japan. When a pilot name is Dong, he needs to sink ALL JAPANESE BATTLESHIPS just to not be shit upon.
     
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  10. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    Speaking of navies...
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Raghar Arcane

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    I read more funny posts on Paradox HoI4 forum and reddit.

    It was basically:
    "wow we finally would be able to design ships and control gun size and ranges."
    "WTF, they created DLC to improve naval combat, and as part of DLC they completely removed gun accuracy and ranges? Now carriers are easily attacked by anything, and naval combat feels like WWI."


    ...
    And they paid money for that.
     
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  12. Mark.L.Joy Erudite

    Mark.L.Joy
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    So Finlandia doesn't have national focus yet? wtf
     
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  13. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    It's another one of those things that ends up being a huge dumb problem, since if they go with simulationism then every Battleship technology and Battleship built is pure waste. Everything is down just to carriers and destroyers, and who can make the most of them. And as usual, just made worse by the time scales of production.

    I have absolutely no idea how they could fix the naval system. Even with gun accuracy and ranges it was only marginally less fucked.
     
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  14. sser Arcane Cuck Developer

    sser
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    I don't mind the naval combat. You win by properly organizing all your shit correctly at an operational level -- you don't have any of the "click division to this hex" type stuff like with ground combat. Iterating on that further is not going to be easy, but I'm sure there's good ideas bouncing out there somewhere. The problem for me is that wins/losses tend to be more catastrophic than they should be. Navies seem very earnest to fight out battles of annihilation which, when pitted against the enormous economic investments, makes these fights pretty gruesome. It does make playing the U.S. fun in the sense that you basically just throw material at the Axis powers until they fade away, exchanging expensive submarines for cheap convoys, until the enemy is simply out of convoys -- because your replacement stream for subs is the same as theirs for convoys. Brutal.
     
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  15. Sergiu64 Arcane

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    Historically ships had 50% survival ratio for battles involving them from what I remember. So catastrophic does sound right.
     
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  16. XenomorphII Prophet

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    Honestly the only time you really have to even use a navy is if you are trying to invade US without a friendly nearby. All other times it is faster and easier to just build bombers and hammer their ports and immediate sea zones.
     
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  17. Raghar Arcane

    Raghar
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    I looked at old naval combat, and created few algorithms for easy calculation real world naval combat. But frankly it's not difficult to simulate, the only problem is rules changed during WWII. From ships vulnerable to air they changed to ships full of AA weapons efficient to 10 km altitude, and then it no longer was about attacking ship vulnerable to air attack, nearly unprotected against torpedo hits.

    Torpedo bombers basically evaporated during WWII, because 40 mm is effective to 4000 m, and Japanese airdropped torpedo had range 1000 m. And both Japan and US knew they must develop guided anti-ship missiles otherwise theirs aircrafts would face even more improved AA, and they would be dead meat. Improvements on Japanese torpedoes were about increasing damage.

    Only country that wanted gun battle was UK and if they didn't tried actual gunnery test to see how they would preform in real condition, they would find German fleet, show UK ships can't hit shit, and German fleet would report, we somehow won, proceeding to bombard London. At least it would solve UK fuel and maintenance costs.

    Frankly Japanese didn't want to build Yamato, but they mostly made it before they changed tactics and started to concentrate on carriers only. But they didn't wanted to cancel production, and decided to finish it. From what I heard it had pretty power efficient powerplant, thus when they would use it instead of older battleships, they would probably get more per fuel spend. But they kept it mostly in reserves.

    The main problem is Paradox has no clue how moder naval operation actually works, and naval interface is weird/idiotic. HoI2 style of having home port and moving into area of search worked decently, at least it forced player to base it somewhere with support facilities. Nowadays a random fishing village in Malaysia is enough.
     
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  18. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    Well as long as they never actually go into the fishing village in Malaysia for repairs or to wait, if they just theoretically supply there no problemo.
     
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  19. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
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    It's pretty hard to make reasonably realistic naval system when the player has advanced knowledge of which naval technology is worth pursuing.
     
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  20. Sinilevä Educated

    Sinilevä
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    In the WW2 game one of the main participants of the war in the east still doesn't have a focus tree... Anyway it's a shitty game. Why play it if there is Darkest Hour?
     
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  21. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    No, the problem is that nothing is explained in the game - including catastrophic losses.

    Your patrol fleets never spot anything despite extremely high coverage? Why? No idea! The game sure won't tell you - looking for advice online ends up with a thousand different advises.
    Your patrol fleets never gain coverage even if you put a hundred ships in an area? Why? Who knows! The game sure won't tell you...
    Your patrol fleets actually work, but no engagement ever happens because your strike force just idles around until the enemy disappears? Why? *shrug* The game sure won't tell you...
    Which of the endless amount of upgrades and layouts is actually good for what? Beats me. The game just throws a bunch of unexplained numbers at your face - and online advice is as I wrote above, too many disagreeing pieces of advice to make any sense of.
    Why did a naval battle actually end up the way it did? Is there a sensible combat log maybe? Hahaha, no, git gud!
    How about just offering a bunch of decent default layouts for those who don't want to invest that much time into the naval stuff? No? Oh, well, too bad, I guess.

    In the end, you just put endless amounts of mines everywhere as that somehow seems to work while not requiring any micro-management at all - until some patch changes that again, I guess.

    Just makes me want to play as Tibet again. Or Austria, or...
     
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  22. sser Arcane Cuck Developer

    sser
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    You're right that not much of it is explained, but I slowly came to understand some key points and I'll join the random internet advice mob:

    Fleet detection isn't guaranteed, but it's very likely if that enemy fleet is big and slow. Make sure your detection fleets are told to not engage anything so they'll spot but run from it.

    Strike fleets should be 4-screens to a capital ship. Do not put more than 3 CVs in a fleet for best efficiency -- or just jam a ton in there if you got a bunch (hi America).

    Never put a submarine in a strike fleet. Every fleet moves at the tempo of it's slowest ship, and subs move the slowest. My subs only go into fleets entirely made up of subs.

    As America, you pretty much have to build a bunch of ports in the Pacific for your ships to go repair.

    Mines are pretty badly simulated in the game. I don't know use them as a sort of house rule myself.

    Battle log is sorta there but its more results-based. I wish alerts were based upon sizes of engaging fleets. Whenever I play America/Japan your fleets are engaging shit 24/7 so it's hard to click through every single alert to be sure it's not some ultra battle going on.
     
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  23. Raghar Arcane

    Raghar
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    What's that?
    These are actually quite simple, put gun, sonar, torpedoes, depth charges on a destroyer, and you have a decent destroyer.
    Carriers are even more simple.
    Click on combat when it's happening and observe what's happening, you can see even what caused each damage. Torpedo, heavy guns, nav or light guns. But of course they removed ranges and now the stuff is happening weirdly.

    Last time I checked there was an autogenerated layout.
     
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  24. thesheeep Arcane Patron

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    https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Naval_missions#Strike_force
    Patrol searches for ships, strike force then moves out to attack them - except when it doesn't because "reasons".

    True, but if that is on the level of the default layouts of ground armies, which I expect it to be, that's not decent at all.
    Most importantly, I don't think it is role specific (mining, patrolling, raiding, protecting, protecting naval invasion, strike force).

    Says you.
    Not saying you are wrong, but the sheer amount of different advises on this (all from veteran players) makes it clear that it is not actually simple - or made so opaque in the game that it is simply not that clear to decide.
    Or - which is somewhat my theory - the systems are so interconnected and "fluid" that you can do literally anything and will come out on top as long as you got the higher number of units and tech regardless of layout.

    I don't generally have the time in the middle of a war to inspect a bunch of battles while they are happening - there's usually more important things going on that require your attention.
    What would be needed would be a proper log laying out the turns (I assume the combat happens turn-based?).
     
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  25. Raghar Arcane

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    Well, I tend to use patrol for killing ships, or convoy raiding. Carrier battlegroup is moving around and killing stuff.

    I occasionally use strike force when I have not many engagements per month with carrier force, to catch US fleet running by. Patrols sometimes don't care even when other patrols locate US MASSIVE CARRIER GROUP YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANNA ENGAGE.

    HoI4 implementation of strike force that is sitting in the port and you can't start naval invasion is kinda bad however. If they improve AI to abuse this mechanic. Japan fleet would sit on some island in the middle of nowhere... Actually I wonder, can US fleet behind Panama canal and create naval supremacy on the other side?

    Autogenerated is created for people who don't wanna bother with naval aspect. US can create hordes of ships, throw them into fry and possibly win.

    In fact reinforcement system feels like they seen RTS and they added an important feature. In some cases like losing few destroyers in middle of nowhere in high risk mission, you don't want new ships to likely lose in raiding in less important area, you wanna get out remaining ships.
    Reinforcement system would make more sense when HoI4 would have specific fleet screen where a fleet would be described with tasks and command structure. Current version is put few ships to task force, then click click regions... And when you have a fleet that has carriers in regions A, B, and patrols in regions A, B, C, and minesweeping in region D. You need to make 3 fleets. One for patrols in ABC, one for carriers in AB, and one for minesweeping in D. (Separate minesweeping fleet is fine, but separate fleets for patrols and main force are absurd for WWII fleets.)

    That's problem. Because one large battle where Japan kills 6 US carriers and lose 1 decides Pacific theater for at least half year. If US had 8 carriers and Japan still has 3-5, Japan has superiority. And player is typically extremely invested into one smart battle where he's massacring US fleet. But, naval invasion of US is quite hard because Hawaii is still LONG WAY to the US coast.

    But of course real world Japan had STRONG PROBLEMS with enemy submarines, mines, and land based naval bombers.
    When I look at it, Japan which was island state with STRONG navy, had problem with basically everything a normal navy should be able to deal with...
     
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