How important is player knowledge of game mechanics?

[zenbitz]

There is no poll, because I am only interested in responses of people willing to write a semi-coherent sentence!

But - for you (dear reader), does it matter if you "know the rules" behind the RPG - how much damage (in detail) each weapon does, the exact effect of armor, how the stats effect the skills, etc.

Would "hints" be sufficent? I.,e "strength helps you carry stuff" (trivial example) - but not the exact rule "You can carry 10xStrength in kg without becoming over-encumbered").

Do you even read the rules of the cRPG before you play? Would you prefer NOT to know?

 

[Rorschach]

I like numbers. That way when I buy that two-handed sword I know exactly how much I'm benefitting by removing my sheild.

and shit like that.

 

[RK47]

Ofcourse it helps to know really why I would take a sword over an axe etc. It makes choices meaningful from the get go. Do I put on leather armor to have less protection but move more quickly or put the plate armor on to absorb damage better? Rather than a mouseover OH HIGHER AC HIGHER AC THROW THE OLD ONE OFF!

 

[racofer]

It's essential. Try playing a D&D game without having a slightest idea about what the fuck those dice rolls, saving throws, armor class, attack rolls, etc, really mean and see how screwed you end up. I've seem countless dickheads rage quit D&D games and call them all sorts of colorful names because they didn't bother to read the manual (let alone understand it). But most of the times, the games also don't have some sort of tutorial for newcomers, this, in my opinion, scares away many people and gives besthapo and the like a bigger herd.

 

[zenbitz]

It's essential. Try playing a D&D game without having a slightest idea about what the fuck those dice rolls, saving throws, armor class, attack rolls, etc, really mean and see how screwed you end up.

On of my all time favorite games was a pbm (snail mail!) of fantasy gladiator combat called Duelmasters. I played this game for years, and me and my friends spent $1000s on it. One of the "features" was that the game mechanics were about 85% hidden. So, you had to figure out what weapons were good against what armors (etc.) by actually playing the game.

This seems rather horrible on the face of it - but it was actually quite an interesting "sub game".

What I don't like about exposed game mechanics is that it makes it very pat and easy to find optimal combinations.

Maybe I should rephrase the question: Do you like to min/max a cRPG?

 

[zenbitz]

Ofcourse it helps to know really why I would take a sword over an axe etc. It makes choices meaningful from the get go. Do I put on leather armor to have less protection but move more quickly or put the plate armor on to absorb damage better?

I didn't ask if it helped... I'm asking how much you like to get your hand held. You could (for example) write a text description of leather and plate armor which stated the above (more or less obvious) information: Plate armor weighs more and protects better, but is hotter are harder to move in. That's not a mechanic.
A mechanic is:
Plate armor: -6 to hit, -6 damage, weight 75lbs, -2 to DEX & SPEED
Leather armor: -2 to hit, -2 damage, weight 20lbs, no effect on DEX/SPEED.

Rather than a mouseover OH HIGHER AC HIGHER AC THROW THE OLD ONE OFF!

Sorry, I don't get this. If the mechanics were hidden, you would not know the AC of what the armors were - only their "relative protection" values (X is better than Y is better than Z) - or more to the point, you would not know the exact effect of AC on the game.

 

[Zyrxil]

Sorry, I don't get this. If the mechanics were hidden, you would not know the AC of what the armors were - only their "relative protection" values (X is better than Y is better than Z) - or more to the point, you would not know the exact effect of AC on the game.

How the hell would that work? You compare two plates against each other and the game tells you which is better? Then people would just compile a huge list of how the game ranked the armors, and the first armor (least protective) might as well be 1AC, and the hundredth armor 100AC.

 

[zenbitz]

Sorry, I don't get this. If the mechanics were hidden, you would not know the AC of what the armors were - only their "relative protection" values (X is better than Y is better than Z) - or more to the point, you would not know the exact effect of AC on the game.

How the hell would that work? You compare two plates against each other and the game tells you which is better? Then people would just compile a huge list of how the game ranked the armors, and the first armor (least protective) might as well be 1AC, and the hundredth armor 100AC.

No, that's not it. You would "know" X armor is better than Y armor is better than Z armor for all armors. But you wouldn't know by how much, or what the _exact_ effect was (ie., how much harder it is to be hit, how many hits of damage it absorbs)

 

[mondblut]

It's all important.

 

[RK47]

Sorry, I don't get this. If the mechanics were hidden, you would not know the AC of what the armors were - only their "relative protection" values (X is better than Y is better than Z) - or more to the point, you would not know the exact effect of AC on the game.

How the hell would that work? You compare two plates against each other and the game tells you which is better? Then people would just compile a huge list of how the game ranked the armors, and the first armor (least protective) might as well be 1AC, and the hundredth armor 100AC.

No, that's not it. You would "know" X armor is better than Y armor is better than Z armor for all armors. But you wouldn't know by how much, or what the _exact_ effect was (ie., how much harder it is to be hit, how many hits of damage it absorbs)

I think I just look at it from Diablo 2 perspective. I never really understood how 'armor' works in that game and despite playing higher difficulty, the only stuff I cared about from the armor is how much skill+++ it had instead of what it really is supposed to do: DEFENSE!

Sorry for the confusion. Let's just look at Ultima 7 here. I never understood why some armor are better the other. Or how the hit and miss system works. I automatically put it like this Leather-Chain-Plate -But the more protection you get, the heavier it is, Magic armor has less weight.

I stumbled upon a book in-game that showed me 'numerical' values of individual armor pieces (I'm not kidding) as well as weapons. Is this really acceptable way to explain to players how it works? Heck even magical items like Magesbane and Magic Bows don't really explain to me what it does, it took me some trial and error to figure it out.

 

[Hory]

I think that player knowledge of game mechanics is not needed whenever the mechanics simulate reality accurately, with which the player is supposedly familiar. As such, this rule doesn't apply very well to fantasy settings.

 

[DraQ]

There is no poll, because I am only interested in responses of people willing to write a semi-coherent sentence!

But - for you (dear reader), does it matter if you "know the rules" behind the RPG - how much damage (in detail) each weapon does, the exact effect of armor, how the stats effect the skills, etc.

Would "hints" be sufficent? I.,e "strength helps you carry stuff" (trivial example) - but not the exact rule "You can carry 10xStrength in kg without becoming over-encumbered").

Do you even read the rules of the cRPG before you play? Would you prefer NOT to know?

Ideally? Fuzzy intuitive grasp should be completely sufficient for two reasons:

1) Good mechanics shouldn't yield to minmaxing. While making all possible outcomes of player decisions positive is a retarded tactics, there should be numerous more or less equal options throughout the whole length (and breadth) of the game. This applies to chargen in particular, as any other situation would indicate serious balance issues (not in terms of power, but viability). The only exception would be if system penalized min-maxers (by penalizing extremely low attribute scores) and favoured characters that would be at least somewhat rounded (of course such effect should weak to negligible for all, but extreme cases - we don't want our game to be dominated by dull jacks-of-all-trades either, only to throw enough varied situations at a PC, to make complete neglect of certain attributes matter).

2) Requirement of comprehensibility severely hinders the developers' ability to introduce complex mechanics that would allow for both, de-abstraction, and enchanced responsiveness of a cRPG, which, unlike PnP game, doesn't have scheming human brain for a backend.

 

[Thrasher]

Number one rule of game-playing - don't hide the rules from the player.

I think it is total dumbfuckery to expect people to play an RPG without knowing the rules. Stupidity at its worst.

If I want to play a puzzle game where I have to deduce the rules then I'll play a puzzle game NOT an RPG.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

My group and i play something like that on P&P from time to time, and it works like a charm if your crew and you are on the middle of the narrativistic camp and loving it. You would not even build your character: You wrote the biography, the descriptions, etc and the GM made the Sheet for you. And you did not know what was on it. So you had to think all the time as the character, never being able to take even the slightest, quickest "gamist" choice.

After one or two sessions getting to adapt two things happen: You get VERY in character, and the feedback pulls you further in. The level of roleplaying gets very high, and it has a kind of charm and tension and drama that knowing your stats can't reproduce.

But it's something for once in a while, even for the narrative supremacists.

 

[DraQ]

My group and i play something like that on P&P from time to time, and it works like a charm if your crew and you are on the middle of the narrativistic camp and loving it. You would not even build your character: You wrote the biography, the descriptions, etc and the GM made the Sheet for you. And you did not know what was on it. So you had to think all the time as the character, never being able to take even the slightest, quickest "gamist" choice.

After one or two sessions getting to adapt two things happen: You get VERY in character, and the feedback pulls you further in. The level of roleplaying gets very high, and it has a kind of charm and tension and drama that knowing your stats can't reproduce.

But it's something for once in a while, even for the narrative supremacists.

This.

Number one rule of game-playing - don't hide the rules from the player.

I think it is total dumbfuckery to expect people to play an RPG without knowing the rules. Stupidity at its worst.

If I want to play a puzzle game where I have to deduce the rules then I'll play a puzzle game NOT an RPG.

As much as I enjoyed building my mini furry army of doom in Wizardry 8, you sir are a gigantic faggot.

 

[Thrasher]

You're not done fucking yourself. Get on it.

 

[DraQ]

You're not done fucking yourself. Get on it.

I won't repeat myself. Read my reply regarding your lady-boyness and my lack of it.

 

[mondblut]

Lady-boyness is a notorious attribute of larpers scared by maths.

 

[DraQ]

Lady-boyness is a notorious attribute of larpers scared by maths.

Phew. Good thing I'm neither a larper, nor scared my math.

I simply think that for inherently simulationistic game the perfection lies de-abstraction-ward.

User comprehensible math belongs in abstract games (or simulationist games happening in relatively simple and predictable environments - like orbit, orbital movement equations <3<3).

 

[Thrasher]

Nice try, but you're not fooling anyone, DragQ.

BTW, math has NOTHING to do with my point.

 

[DraQ]

BTW, math has NOTHING to do with my point.

Neither does it have with your excessive lady-boyness.

 

[Thrasher]

^pathetic obsessive homophobic closet case

simulation does not make an RPG - gameplay does

 

[zenbitz]

simulation does not make an RPG - gameplay does

Number one rule of game-playing - don't hide the rules from the player.

So, for both of these to be true - good gameplay (in the Thresher universe) = transparent rules.

 

[crufty]

Do you even read the rules of the cRPG before you play? Would you prefer NOT to know?

I think back to most crpgs and most of them were a bit of the mystery. There were basic stats, but you never really knew exactly what the formulas were eg Bards Tale and the luck attribute ("Luck plays a small part in all calculations").

I think some numeric way of ordering is important though. It's too hard to keep track of the difference between a bronze helmet and tarnished bronze helmet, for example. There should be some way for the inventory screen to list out the best item for a given task.

 

[Thrasher]

simulation does not make an RPG - gameplay does

Number one rule of game-playing - don't hide the rules from the player.

So, for both of these to be true - good gameplay (in the Thresher universe) = transparent rules.

good rpg = transparent rules + good gameplay + other stuff

tic tac toe has transparent rules, but the gaemplay is boring