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Vapourware How to make indies like terraria, starbound, broforce...?
- Thread starter Jools
- Start date
ITT thread topic hijacked by Aspergers.
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 3,101
Let's ignore whether programmers are aspergers.
Thing is, even My First RPG Maker Lite involved programmers. Who wrote the code.
You're not even funny, why try so hard to begin with?
Run a heap profiler, and a CPU profiler. No need to trust me, facts speak for themselves.
Even games written in languages with automatic memory management use native code parts. That's not due to inferior or nonexistent vectorization of the .NET/MSIL jitter, even MSVC++ since recently didn't vectorize right. That's not due to non-standardized C++ name mangling. That's not due to OS APIs being unaccessible, as .NET has easy FFI that they call pinvoke. Even sites hoarding pinvoke trash written by hindus. Even win32 COM accessible through .NET maybe even easier and safer than through C++.
Whether drones writing C++ games (larger job market, makes programmers cheaper and more replaceable) could use C# (or F#, i cry in terror) without being trained and retrained like blonde secretaries is another thing though...
Thing is, even My First RPG Maker Lite involved programmers. Who wrote the code.
You're not even funny, why try so hard to begin with?
Run a heap profiler, and a CPU profiler. No need to trust me, facts speak for themselves.
Even games written in languages with automatic memory management use native code parts. That's not due to inferior or nonexistent vectorization of the .NET/MSIL jitter, even MSVC++ since recently didn't vectorize right. That's not due to non-standardized C++ name mangling. That's not due to OS APIs being unaccessible, as .NET has easy FFI that they call pinvoke. Even sites hoarding pinvoke trash written by hindus. Even win32 COM accessible through .NET maybe even easier and safer than through C++.
Whether drones writing C++ games (larger job market, makes programmers cheaper and more replaceable) could use C# (or F#, i cry in terror) without being trained and retrained like blonde secretaries is another thing though...
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Double-posting due to edit time limit.
If there's 60 Hz, it's great! Even turn on vsync. But then, there's some task that needs to complete before frame submission. It takes different amounts of time each frame, by a large margin.
16.6666666000 ms average per frame to reach 60 Hz. So this task (let it be the goddamn garbage collector) spends 4ms every fourth frame doing shit we don't even care about or may not know the goddamn GC exists. That is, 4 ms on average. Could spend 60 ms on just one frame a second. So 3 frames spacing, unlike other frames.
You'll notice that. And it plays like shit.
GCs are better in certain workloads [1] and worse in others [2]. That's another subsystem compared to C++. GC needs an allocator anyway. It doesn't replace any elements of the C++ runtime in particular, other than making smart pointers obsolete etc.
It's true that GC greatly reduces memory errors and other beginner mistakes. Though C++ programmers need to familiarize themselves with _proper_ workflow of using pointers, etc. And that means shared pointers, weak pointers, knowing that and _why_ circular references break their shit. Code needs to use idiomatic constructs anyway not to make readers and contributors cringe and scratch their head ("what the fuck did the guy think? was he high or just a retard?").
[1] Like consing trash that's soon discarded. Even then though, GC could greatly affect software's performance. one-fifth or even fourth of software that computes stuff, not merely listening for events, is too much. Use APPEND like a rabbit on a mission in a Common Lisp project, hire a bodyguard for your own good. Popular languages have similarly bad non-destructive operators.
[2] Memoization, or actually any instance of keeping stuff too long or forever, after program start, shits on performance with a violent diarrhea. At least in generational GC, which are p. much state-of-the-art. Shit has to go through all the generations until it hits the zeroth one. One can remove stuff after program start from the generational "nursery" (smells like incest) to ease the burden of the poorly-chosen language and its worthless implementation, but won't help the unsuitable workload anyway.
Fucking phone.
If there's 60 Hz, it's great! Even turn on vsync. But then, there's some task that needs to complete before frame submission. It takes different amounts of time each frame, by a large margin.
16.6666666000 ms average per frame to reach 60 Hz. So this task (let it be the goddamn garbage collector) spends 4ms every fourth frame doing shit we don't even care about or may not know the goddamn GC exists. That is, 4 ms on average. Could spend 60 ms on just one frame a second. So 3 frames spacing, unlike other frames.
You'll notice that. And it plays like shit.
GCs are better in certain workloads [1] and worse in others [2]. That's another subsystem compared to C++. GC needs an allocator anyway. It doesn't replace any elements of the C++ runtime in particular, other than making smart pointers obsolete etc.
It's true that GC greatly reduces memory errors and other beginner mistakes. Though C++ programmers need to familiarize themselves with _proper_ workflow of using pointers, etc. And that means shared pointers, weak pointers, knowing that and _why_ circular references break their shit. Code needs to use idiomatic constructs anyway not to make readers and contributors cringe and scratch their head ("what the fuck did the guy think? was he high or just a retard?").
[1] Like consing trash that's soon discarded. Even then though, GC could greatly affect software's performance. one-fifth or even fourth of software that computes stuff, not merely listening for events, is too much. Use APPEND like a rabbit on a mission in a Common Lisp project, hire a bodyguard for your own good. Popular languages have similarly bad non-destructive operators.
[2] Memoization, or actually any instance of keeping stuff too long or forever, after program start, shits on performance with a violent diarrhea. At least in generational GC, which are p. much state-of-the-art. Shit has to go through all the generations until it hits the zeroth one. One can remove stuff after program start from the generational "nursery" (smells like incest) to ease the burden of the poorly-chosen language and its worthless implementation, but won't help the unsuitable workload anyway.
Fucking phone.
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It's not the programmer-speak in your posts that tipped me off. You're the guy who comes to a party, feels lost, and starts reading a prolonged lecture about astronomy to an increasingly uncomfortable passer-by who casually mentioned owning a pair of binoculars.
I'm not your enemy. I understand why you do what you do. It's how you function best. But by becoming aware of what you're doing, you can also very lightly nudge yourself toward increasing flexibility. It will improve your quality of life... somewhat.
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2010
- Messages
- 21,144
He's not projecting, that's textbook Aspergers.
Suppose that's true. What then?
Typical not participating in a thread, coming in and complaining about it. Figures.
desocupado
Magister
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,802
What's wrong with XNA? I know that it's not being updated anymore, but ain't what's left solid?
I worked with SDL a bit, and I wanted to learn another framework, and I was thinking of XNA...
I worked with SDL a bit, and I wanted to learn another framework, and I was thinking of XNA...
Immortal
Arcane
Unity 'scripting' is still programming with general principles.. Not really No-Brainer.. and I think unity is a great place to start.. Or using Mono.. You get cross platform support fairly easily and Mono Games libraries are pretty good for 2D Games..
To OP:
If your 'partner in crime' is a developer of any merit he should have at least a passing concept of these technologies and jumping in should be a minimal effort as opposed to rolling an engine from scratch.
It's not cross platform.. Mono is the 'alternative' (it actually builds on XNA 4) to XNA which is not only cross platform but has much better performance and is still being actively developed today by the open source community.
If C# was your target technology for making a game.. definitely go with Mono. http://www.monogame.net/
desocupado
Magister
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,802
What's developed in mono that's not in XNA4? Other than cross plataforming?
Immortal
Arcane
If you really have an interest in it.. go to the link. If I was going to sum it up in a quick verbage..
Improved API - More simple to use and get working and less dependant on Microsoft abstractions
Improved Performance
Improved Modularity
Added features like -proper- Anti-aliasing and more control over your pipelines for rendering
Uses the GPL more efficiently
I am sure the list goes on, I am not an expert on XNA before it was discontinued or what it's capabilities were.. but Mono is shaping up to be a very powerful library whereas XNA was a niche product for peddling shitty games on Xbox Live..
J1M
Arcane
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 14,641
Having made myself familiar with both XNA and what is available through mono game I need to call bullshit. XNA is a superior API and monogame is still missing fairly important pieces of .NET 4.0.
It's a little silly to suggest that mono is some form of original work, when it is primarily an attempt to make as many XNA APIs as possible cross-platform. The work of a brick layer, not an architect.
It's a little silly to suggest that mono is some form of original work, when it is primarily an attempt to make as many XNA APIs as possible cross-platform. The work of a brick layer, not an architect.
Immortal
Arcane
Mono[sic] is an ongoing effort. Who cares about all the cruft in BCL anyway. There's so much shit in there.
You're confusing the two as much that I'm confused as to whether you're referring to mono or monogame at the time.
That's like conversing with the French academia.
IOW, "1GdGZZ"
It still presupposes a particular way of rasterizing to screen buffer. That is, \in list of stuff I hate:
- vertex attributes
- uniforms
- variants
- fragments
- vertices
GLES 3 (?) sucks less, supposedly.
IOW, "{d}ZZ"
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J1M
Arcane
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 14,641
You are both correct that mono is a work in progress. Perhaps things have improved since I used it last. As for missing pieces, I remember needing the PowerCollections library because some of the .NET collections I wanted to use did not have equivalents.
EDIT: Having researched it some today, it appears that the first step to using MonoGame is still to install XNA because its content pipeline tools aren't finished yet. But who cares about that when you have PS4 vertex attributes?
EDIT: Having researched it some today, it appears that the first step to using MonoGame is still to install XNA because its content pipeline tools aren't finished yet. But who cares about that when you have PS4 vertex attributes?
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