I was wrong

[Twinfalls]

Note that I said:

"And yes, in the case of LOTR you've mentioned a lot of critical acclaim (jeez, you really do have a boner for the films Laughing ). I've read plenty of reviews that are strongly critical of the films. Yet looking at the list you've presented, I can only suspect that in the face of the power of the Blockbuster, 'Emperors New Clothes' has become an even more pervasive phenomenon amongst institutional film circles than anywhere else.... "

Yes, he only mentioned that 'millions of viewers' thing right at the end. But his defence of LOTR is essentially one of 'well tons of people like it so you can't argue with that', rather than any articulation of its merits.

Not to mention that he's defended Fable (on the TES boards) on the grounds that it sold a bucket.

And what the heck is 'critical acclaim' worth anyway? Baywatch's most qualified critics are the people who simply watch it to whack off, I'd argue. So, critically, it's a great success. But I can still objectively articulate reasons why its crap. So too, with LOTR.

 

[merry andrew]

Noted.

Yes, he only mentioned that 'millions of viewers' thing right at the end. But his defence of LOTR is essentially one of 'well tons of people like it so you can't argue with that', rather than any articulation of its merits.

Not to mention that he's defended Fable (on the TES boards) on the grounds that it sold a bucket.

Lots of people liking something is merit.

I read the TES boards very very very infrequently. Fable sold a bucket. It was not a pre-existing franchise (ala The Matrix). People were interested in it enough to pay for it, and play it. Someone mentioned it in high regard today in class while discussing character development. I'm personally, as a gamer, not that interested in the game. As a developer, however, it's pretty interesting. Why do people like it so much? Some of us don't settle for 'cuz they're stoopid lol'.

That's all, really.

 

[Twinfalls]

Lots of people liking something is merit.

No. No it's not. Lots of people in Germany liked Nazism at one time.

'cuz they're stoopid lol'.

And who is saying that?

The people who liked LOTR are not stupid. I suspect the vast majority of the 'mums and dads' who saw it thought it was a bit of fun at the movies, but *nothing great*. A lot of them probably think it's a bit silly.

Sure, a lot of people like Baywatch.

But that's no reason to say it's above criticism. Same as Fable. Same as LOTR.

That's all, really.

 

[voodoo1man]

Saint_Proverbius has it right. Even a clumsy idiot can swing a 6' claymore roughly in the direction of an opponent 3' away and hit them. They're not going to do any damage, but the sword will hit. That's the way it is in Oblivion.

If you're willing to be the opponent, I'll provide the clumsy idiot and the claymore to test your hypothesis.

 

[Sol Invictus]

MSFD uses a logical fallacy: Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) to back up his weak defense for the Lord of the Rings movie. "It can't suck, because so and so said it was awesome!" and of course, argumentum ad populum. His argument basically appeals to popular attitudes instead of presenting relevant material to defend the subject matter.

For the record, I did enjoy the Lord of the Rings movies, not because they had any depth (they didn't) or that their characters were ostensibly interesting (they weren't). I enjoyed it because it was a fun, if trite trilogy of movies that allowed me to shut off my brain for a few hours. It didn't have all the boring backstory elements that the books happen to boast as their prime ingredient.

 

[merry andrew]

Lots of people liking something is merit.

No. No it's not. Lots of people in Germany liked Nazism at one time.

Yeah, Nazism has/had merit. Sorry? Why would people like something if they thought it had no merit?

'cuz they're stoopid lol'.

And who is saying that?

The people who liked LOTR are not stupid. I suspect the vast majority of the 'mums and dads' who saw it thought it was a bit of fun at the movies, but *nothing great*. A lot of them probably think it's a bit silly.

Sure, a lot of people like Baywatch.

But that's no reason to say it's above criticism. Same as Fable. Same as LOTR.

That's all, really.

Seeing as the Codex theme seems to be calling people "retards" everytime there's a disagreement, I thought the 'cuz they're stoopid lol' comment was justified. Obviously I was wrong.

*nothing great*? It just seems like you're totally ignoring how people have reacted to the movie. Now you're actually using numbers (just as MSFD did) to instead assert that the majority of these seemingly unknown viewers didn't even like it that much.

When did I say it was above criticism? Criticising something doesn't make its popularity disappear.

 

[merry andrew]

As has been stated, things can be interesting or have merit for different reasons, and different people have various opinions. That's all pretty obvious, anyway, but that's all I was getting it.

But if you want to try to be objective about opinion, majority rules. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yeah, Nazism has/had merit. Sorry? Why would people like something if they thought it had no merit?

I am not saying 'they thought it had no merit'. I am saying that one ought to be able to argue it had little or no merit even though lots of people say otherwise. It is easy to critique the purported merits of Nazism, hence the example.

Sol Invictus' summary above of the latin definitions puts it nicely.

It just seems like you're totally ignoring how people have reacted to the movie. Now you're actually using numbers (just as MSFD did) to instead assert that the majority of these seemingly unknown viewers didn't even like it that much.

As I said, that's a personal suspicion, that most of the mums and dads liked it - a lot even, but didn't think it was *something great*.

When did I say it was above criticism? Criticising something doesn't make its popularity disappear.

Re-read our discussion. I said from the beginning that MSFD is clearly implying that it is above criticism simply because a lot of people, in authority and generally, like it. You simply argued that I was wrong with my arguments.

As for 'you can't be objective about opinion', you are using a straw man. No-one is doing that. I am trying to level objective criticisms about LOTR. I am saying that majority opinion does NOT mean these criticisms are somehow automatically invalid. I am saying further, that majority opinion is irrelevant to an argument on the merits.

Is this so hard to understand?

 

[merry andrew]

Re-read our discussion. I said from the beginning that MSFD is clearly implying that it is above criticism simply because a lot of people, in authority and generally, like it. You simply argued that I was wrong with my arguments.

As for 'you can't be objective about opinion', you are using a straw man. No-one is doing that. I am trying to level objective criticisms about LOTR. I am saying that majority opinion does NOT mean these criticisms are somehow automatically invalid. Is this so hard to understand?

I guess I don't see him implying that it was above criticism. I don't recall anyone stating that. I thought his response was mostly in response to the 'LOTR sucked' comment, in an effort to "level objective criticisms about LOTR". That's where my confusion comes from.

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[merry andrew]

All I'm saying is that there is a middle ground. Trying to replace one extreme with another may not be the best way to approach a situation, but I dunno.

How many people were really interested in character development before Fable? If you want the majority to develop 'higher standards', so that maybe developers could just do whatever they want and still be in business, you're probably gonna have to work with them.

 

[Twinfalls]

I guess I don't see him implying that it was above criticism. I don't recall anyone stating that. I thought his response was mostly in response to the 'LOTR sucked' comment, in an effort to "level objective criticisms about LOTR". That's where my confusion comes from.

Yeah, fair enough. I just get sick of reading the response 'well 10 bajillion people bought it and they can't be wrong' that I tend to see it being implied.

 

[Twinfalls]

stuff about LOTR, society, culture, 'dumbing down' and Daggerfall, Oblivion...

Beautifully put, angler. Completely agree.

It's all a bit depressing. To think that we will probably NEVER have another '2001 A Space Oddyssey' or another 'Dark Side of the Moon' being the massive, mainstream smash hits that they were in their time..... which was only just a few decades ago.

In 200 years if movies are nothing but robots shooting at each other on black backgrounds the populace would cope because that's all they know. The movies would receive critical acclaims and our culture would continually reach an all-time supidity and become, essentially, a people without a culture.

 

[merry andrew]

In 200 years if movies are nothing but robots shooting at each other on black backgrounds the populace would cope because that's all they know. The movies would receive critical acclaims and our culture would continually reach an all-time supidity and become, essentially, a people without a culture.

Blah, see there's the 'omg everyone is stupid lol so sad' thingy I was talking about. Not that I'm directly quoting anyone there, those are loose quotes.

Oh well, I still have hope.

 

[Twinfalls]

Blah, see there's the 'omg everyone is stupid lol so sad' thingy I was talking about. Not that I'm directly quoting anyone there, those are loose quotes.

Oh well, I still have hope.

No there is *not* that 'omg everyone is so stupid thingy'. You, and only you, are saying that. Have you read '1984'? Do you think Orwell was saying 'in the future everyone will be stoopid omg'????

 

[merry andrew]

Nope I haven't read that.

 

[Twinfalls]

Well read it then. When there are powerful, systematic forces at play, societal change can occur for the worse without people being 'stoopid'.

 

[Twinfalls]

Check out this quote from the big Xbox 360 launch with Allard et al:

Now, we've traveled a long way since we stood on stage four years ago at E3 to tell you about our plans for a new console called Xbox. Since then, we've gone from zero customers to more than 20 million, from never having created a console game to unleashing Halo 2, which enjoyed the single largest day in entertainment history. (Cheers, applause.) Not just gaming history, entertainment history: $125 million in one single day. (Applause.)

Halo fucking 2. A fucking sequel. That's what they're fucking proud of. A fucking clone of a fucking clone that takes gaming nowhere. And they've got this evangelistic style applause for it.

Fuck me, but we are in a bad bad way.

 

[merry andrew]

Well, read it then. When there are powerful, systematic forces at play, societal change can occur for the worse without people being 'stoopid'.

Yeah, you have to find a way to influence the "powerful, systematic forces at play", which may include dumbing concepts down so that they can be received well. Once they're received well, the people may be open to more complex concepts. Like I said, trying to force one extreme instead of another probably isn't going to work.

I'm thinking we have different ideas of 'stoopid'.

 

[Twinfalls]

I wish the emphasis was not on 'dumbing concepts down so they can be received well'. I wish it was having faith in people, being prepared to take risks, to back stuff that's sophisticated with advertising, etc.

Morrowind 's success on the consoles is actually a good example of how something with relative sophistication can do well in a field notionally reserved by the powers-that-be for simple shit.

More importantly: Society needs real choice. It needs the dominance of EA, MS, Sony Pictures, etc to be dismantled. These institutions are not risk-takers. They want an uninterrupted profit stream. They are too powerful for the common good. Worse still, the marketing and PR industries are at an all-time high of power. The sophisitication and ubiquity of advertising is now a truly dangerous force.

 

[merry andrew]

You have to have faith in people, you have to be prepared to take risks, to back stuff that's sophisticated with advertising, etc.

The powers that be do have faith in people. They have faith that the people will continue to eat up the same stuff over and over.

Morrowind 's success on the consoles is actually a good example of how something with relative sophistication can do well in a field notionally reserved by the powers-that-be for simple shit.

Isn't Morrowind just a 'dumbed down' verison of Daggerfall?

More importantly: Society needs real choice. It needs the dominance of EA, MS, Sony Pictures to be dismantled. These institutions are not risk-takers. They want an uninterrupted profit stream. They are too powerful for the common good.

They do have real choice. Do you buy into the dominance of EA, MS, and Sony? They don't have to be risk-takers. They want an uninterrupted profit stream because that's what they're interested in.

Anyway, I think I see what you're getting at. Since "dismantled" seems like a last resort to me, I generally shy away from that approach.

Can we not work with the powers that be to alter the way in which they do business? Find a middle ground?

 

[Twinfalls]

Can we not work with the powers that be to alter the way in which they do business? Find a middle ground?

I guess it's the only real choice if people don't demand more regulation, breaking up of corporations (like was done with AT&T back in the day), restrictions on 'advertising on every fucking bus shelter' etc...

But fundamentally, the problem is *concentration of power*. While that remains, you simply can't 'change the way they do business'.

It seems that Doug Church (former LG designer, one of the true greats) is trying to work within the system. He's now head of his own EA studio, so we've got an interesting test of the approach you suggest....

 

[merry andrew]

It seems that Doug Church (former LG designer, one of the true greats) is trying to work within the system. He's now head of his own EA studio, so we've got an interesting test of the approach you suggest....

I didn't know about that, I'll have to look into it.

I sorta like what Valve is up to as well. Sure, Steam is iffy. But they can somewhat do whatever they want. Plug plug plug... they've offered some people from school the opportunity to build their game (http://www.nuclearmonkeysoftware.com/narbaculardrop.html) with the Source engine, and have it released on Steam.

 

[Twinfalls]

True, good example.

 

[franc kaos]

Of course it's dumbed down compared to the books, otherwise it wouldn't appeal to the masses who happen to like dumbass movies. Just like Oblivion is dumbed down to appeal to the masses who happen to like dumbass Xbox games. Yes, yes, both LOTR and Oblivion are only "translated" to fit the most popular dumbass media format of the moment for maximum exposure. Easy money, even if they maybe didn't belong on that format in the first place.

Guaranteed hit every swing while doing almost no damage to compensate for low skill. Dumbed fucking down.

...

The films made me go out and buy the books, maybe Oblivion will make one kid get into RP. Personally I'm still hoping for a great ... (want to say roleplaying experience but will have to say game). True, it's on the critical list-
can't use staffs as melee weapons (I'd love to know whos dumb fucking idea that was. If you want wands in the game, put 'em in), so no monk class.
streamlined skills sounds kind'a like too many skills confusing for our new players, you don't really need to personalise your character that much and since staffs can't be used as melee, you'll only need sword or hammer skills (is dagger still a seperate skill or are assassins out too?).
Forced reload: Well, we looked at best selling Xbox game Fable (it sold a million units) and took note of all the handholding (not Fable bashing). Or; Bill Gates told us to - for a million bucks.
No werewolves, no Mark/Recall, compass to simplify dialogue options, story driven vs freeform sim...

I've played Arena, Daggerfall and MW and bought each on the day of release (in the case of Daggerfall I actually bought an American import 'cos they were waiting for bugfixes to sell it in the UK), but for the first time for a Beth product I'm actually gonna wait, or grab the demo if they release one.
I tend to play one role (home made - a Rogue Mage, unarmoured, principle weapon of choice a staff <metal interferes with mana flow> with a sword as backup), I've never wanted to play an uber killing machine, at least not in RPGs, even in Fallout, if there was a way to get thru' the mission without killing I'd generally do it.

I believe that Bethsoft are forgetting something in their attempt to go 'mainstream', all those new fans they got with MW actually liked it because it was something different. If they start offering what is essentially 'more of the same' as everyone else they lose their only selling point.

Franc Kaos