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If Sega released a new console today?

FreshCorpse

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
EA told them to only distribute their sports game on the DC and leave them without competition or they would boycott the console

I hadn't been aware of this but I did know that there was no FIFA on the console. Even back in the late-90s this was pretty much a death sentence in Europe. A huge fraction of people, even then, bought consoles in order to play FIFA.

That and the controller being clearly, obviously much too big for many many people's hands...especially those in Sega's home market...

That said I had a DC and I thought I thought it was boss. The Dreamcast had surprisingly good exclusives for a console whose installed base was so small: Soul Calibur, Jet Set Radio, Metropolis Street Racer, Rez plus many many arcade ports. I had a great time with it and was crushed when they discontinued it.
 

gerey

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If Sega, out of the blue, suddenly teamed up with some hardware company like Samsung, and released a 'Sega Jupiter' tomorrow, focusing on what they were always best at, such as porting arcade games, etc, what features would you like?
The market is not what it used to be back when the PS1 and PS2 were launched. You can see how both Microsoft and Sony are struggling to differentiate themselves from one another, and entice people not to buy a PC - and failing hard. Nintendo marches to the beat of their own drum, which they've always done, but even they are losing a lot of ground.

I mean, just compare the number of console exclusives the PS2 had to the PS3 and PS4. And it's not just exclusive titles that they lack, but the fact that all the "plug and play" advantages the consoles had over PCs are mostly gone. Even games that get a physical release often require installation and extensive patching, the OS also demands constants updates as well.

By now modern consoles are basically underperforming, overpriced PCs - the fact both the PS4 and XBox had versions with hardware upgrades released, and MS and Sony announced their follow-ups would also, points to this fact.

What could SEGA possibly bring to the table that would make people want to buy their console? They lack the resources of MS and Sony, they certainly don't have the creative talent of Nintendo anymore, their fanbase has long since eroded away, and whatever IPs they still posses have already found a place on consoles and PCs.

The dreamcast's failure is a multifaceted thing. There's some fuck ups from sega, including the loss of trust after what happened with 32x/saturn, mismanagement of marketing, there's the "it became really too fucking easy to pirate games on it"
I've read a few books on the console wars of the 80s and 90s, and while I believe a lot of the information contained within is biased, if only because the authors had a much easier time getting first-hand accounts from English-speaking (former) SEGA employees, the truth is that SEGA had lost a long time before the release of the Dreamcast, mostly due to the many, many fuckups of the Japanese side of the company.

There's a reason why the US branch was consistently going toe-to-toe with Nintendo during their heyday, while the Japanese branch was persistently struggling to keep a toehold in the home market.

But to be truthful, there was little SEGA could have done against a juggernaut like Sony entering the market. Even Nintendo, the undisputed victor of the 16-bit era was crushed under Sony's heel when the PS1 launched, and when the PS2 came around it was basically game over for anyone else.

I remember reading that any other company besides Microsoft, and their near-infinite coffers, could not have kept the XBox afloat during that era since the division was bleeding money throughout the whole timespan the console was being actively supported.

It was a cool console, and IMHO superior to the ps2 despite the older hardware if only because games weren't massively jagged messes - the ps2 really didn't do antialiasing well. But it ultimately wasn't meant to be.
That's the thing though, superior hardware is meaningless if you don't have a library of games to back it up with.
 

Lutte

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But to be truthful, there was little SEGA could have done against a juggernaut like Sony entering the market. Even Nintendo, the undisputed victor of the 16-bit era was crushed under Sony's heel when the PS1 launched

Nintendo did it to themselves, not Sony. Sticking to cartridges ruined the N64 in the interests of third parties. FF7 might have released on a Nintendo console instead of Sony if the N64 had CD-ROMs.

That's the thing though, superior hardware is meaningless if you don't have a library of games to back it up with.

The DC arguably had a greater variety in its library than the N64 yet one survived and the other died. As I said, the death of Sega is a multifaceted thing. They weren't even lacking in creativity and good IPs during the time of the DC, but their previous fuck ups had seriously taken the company down a notch.
 

Falksi

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So I've just finished all the games up to the end of "C" in my Megadrive collection, and even without the mainstream hits (Streets of Rage, Golden Axe, Afterburner etc.) here are some fucking belting games which SEGA could tap into for sequels......

  • Dinos For Hire
  • Battle Mania (Trouble Shooter)
  • Arrow Flash
  • Elemental Master
  • Alien Storm
  • Crackdown
  • Alisa Dragoon
  • Cutie Suzuki No Ringside Angel
  • Atomic Runner
 
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Falksi

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What could SEGA possibly bring to the table that would make people want to buy their console? They lack the resources of MS and Sony, they certainly don't have the creative talent of Nintendo anymore, their fanbase has long since eroded away, and whatever IPs they still posses have already found a place on consoles and PCs.

That's a bit like hearing some music execs saying "What can Grunge possibly bring to music? It's technically far less superior to Hair Metal, and it's fanbase is a piss poor bunch of teens in Seattle"

Retro has boomed over lockdown, and now SEGA is very much in the minds of kids fed up of unfinished, broken, long-winded, play-online modern games. One of the Facebook groups I frequents is solely focused on the Megadrive, but still has 40k members (there are other more general retro groups with far more members too) and half the posts are from younger spods wanting recommendations and tips for classic Megadrive games.

SEGA's 90's influence created it's own little anti-establishment, edgy arcade vibe & culture and that's having a mini-rebirth in the gaming underground IMO. Consoles like the Switch obviously offer that retro experience, but what that is actually doing now is conditioning the younger gen to want more too.

As you say yourself, modern consoles are essentially shit PC's. Online/download focused, and not really geared for pick up and play gaming. I bought the Megadrive Classics for the X-Box 360 and PS4 at ÂŁ50 each - both have to load up and aren't optimized ideally either. If SEGA were to release an new instant-load, instant play machine backed by a lot of sequeal to the franchizes mentioned in this thread (around 20 already built in) then why wouldn't I buy that instead now? IMO it would make them a nice little packet.

The way I'd prob do it (thinking on the fly on a Sun morning) would be to release the console with around 20 new built in games, along with all the classics which they were birthed from, then release several 6-8 game carts per year with further sequels on them. It wouldn't be a massive game changer financially for SEGA, but it'd be a nice little side earner which shouldn't take much investment to get up and running either.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
You guys know they do release retro consoles, right?
I know because I have one for my niece and nephew when they're at my house. Kids tend to find older console games easier to learn/play in my experience.
 

gerey

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Nintendo did it to themselves, not Sony. Sticking to cartridges ruined the N64 in the interests of third parties. FF7 might have released on a Nintendo console instead of Sony if the N64 had CD-ROMs.
Even worse, Nintendo stabbing Sony in the back during the expo and backing out of the deal to release a joint console galvanized Sony into fully committing to the Playstation, if only to give Nintendo grief. If Nintendo hadn't been high on their own farts they could have been the company in control of the Playstation.

And yes, Nintendo's consistently dubious choice of media formats from the N64 onwards really put a spanner in their marketing. Sony could wow audiences with CGI cutescenes and music/speech, as well as offer a console that was easier and cheaper to develop for, and that was using a much cheaper medium to manufacture.

The DC arguably had a greater variety in its library than the N64 yet one survived and the other died.
Yeah, but look when the DC was released. It was basically SEGA's last hurrah after more than a decade of disastrous decisions. It's more apt to say that the Saturn killed the company, the Dreamcast merely got caught in the blast.

Also, Nintendo didn't make nearly as many mistakes as SEGA did. The N64 and Gamecube might not have been bestsellers, but they still sold a fair amount thanks to the loyal following the company had cultivated over the years, and Nintendo was basically swimming in money thanks to the Gameboy (Color), Gameboy Advanced and Nintendo DS which had a near monopoly on the portable gaming market until the advent of smartphones.

Just think of how many copies of Pokemon sold globally, and how many Gameboys the company had in circulation.
 

TemplarGR

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There were many problems with SEGA. I grew up as a kid in the NES vs Master System generation. I began playing at 8bit, and enjoyed the console wars back then. I was always a Nintendo fanboy during the 8bit and 16bit generations. I lived through SEGAs mistakes, and i am not sure i agree with everything in the OP video. For example backwards compatibility was a nothingburger. Back then console technology grew by leaps and bounds with each generation, and honestly, no one would buy the Saturn to play Mega Drive (not Genesis, Mega Drive, american plebs, that's how the world called it besides you snobs) games. If someone wanted to play Mega Drive games, he could just keep his older Mega Drive. But the jump in quality was huge in the 32 bit era. No one cared about running 16bit games when you had 32 bit 3d graphics consoles and cdroms...

No, the main issue SEGA faced, was that they were an Arcade gaming company through and through. That means they treated their home consoles as platforms to bring their arcade games inside the home. They didn't particularly care about the differences between home gaming and arcade gaming. They did make some home-specific games, like Sonic the Hedgeog or Phantasy Star, but the vast majority of their catalogue were simply arcade ports and sports games. Nintendo on the other hand, while they did have some arcade games of their own (Donkey Kong for example), they quickly realised that the future was with home entertainment and even as early as the NES era they focused on creating home-focused games. NES and SNES did have their fair share of arcade ports, but most of their games were home-tailored. They were also more suited to little kids and families, and most people in the home bought consoles for those demographics, younger and older adults who wanted some arcade action could just go to the nearest arcade and play while also socializing instead (and to be honest, having experienced the glory days of arcades, i do miss them, there was a REAL social kind of gaming in those places, it was fun and i am sad that the newer generations never got to experience it, online multiplayer just isn't the same).

Now, one additional problem this arcade-focused approach had, was that arcades progressed in technology much faster than home consoles. Each arcade video game had each own machine, thus every year with new games, better machine platforms were used, while in home consoles, families didn't want to upgrade them yearly. Thus home consoles stagnated in terms of power until the next generation was released. So, with both Master System and Mega Drive, SEGA soon faced the issue that their arcade ports couldn't do the originals justice due to how lower specced their home consoles were. This lead them to the stupid hardware decisions the video mentioned, with MEGA CD and 32X upgrades. Both were attempts to improve their ports, but adoption was so low that they were barely utilized in the end. On the other hand, Nintendo went much smarter with the SNES: They tailored the SNES hardware to have less cpu processing power, but more graphical power and better sound co-processor chips, with additional capability of introducing game-specific co-processors inside game cartridges(so when an advanced SNES game needed additional power, the chip was added inside and didn't need a console upgrade). Mega Drive had a much stronger cpu, which made arcade porting easier, but had much lower visual and audio quality. This meant that games written for the SNES and making great use of the co-processors, could be much better in graphics and sound. Which is what actually happened historically. The SNES made the Mega Drive appear weak in multiplatform games, and the SNES exclusives were often a half-generation ahead of whatever the Mega Drive had. Plus the SNES nailed it with more story driven games and platformers, solidifying it as THE console to get for home entertainment (which is why, even though it launched 2 years later, by the end of the 16 bit era the SNES had sold more units).

With the Saturn, SEGA showcased to the world how completely out of touch they were with what the home audience wanted. They commited 2(+1) major fuckups with the Saturn. The first fuckup, was that they displayed to the gaming community that buying their hardware was a gamble, seeing how poorly supported the Mega CD and 32X were and how soon they discontinued them in favor of a new console. The second fuckup, was that seeing what Nintendo had done with the SNES, regarding its slower cpu + coprocessors design, they decided to do the same thing with the Saturn, and filled it to the brim with slow cpus and co-processing units that were a major pain in the ass to program for. Only their software strategy didn't change, they still wanted to just make it an arcade port machine.... Their own software houses never utilized the hardware properly to make quality home-focused exclusive games, and the multilpatforms couldn't be bothered since they wanted to have release date parity with the much simpler PS1. Thus they just released shittier versions on the Saturn that didn't utilize 100% of the hardware and called it a day. Bonus fuckup that they didn't expect polygonal graphics to be a big thing in the 32bit era and while technically the Saturn was much more powerful hardware-wise than a PS1, it was still slower to render 3D polygonal graphics, though with major programming sorcery (that only 1st party devs had an incentive to use) they could come close in a few games.

I disagree with the common myth that "the Dreamcast was a good console, that SEGA had finally learned from their mistakes but sadly the Dreamcast failed". No, the Dreamcast was in fact just as shitty as their previous consoles if not shittier due to being completely out of touch with the market at that point (the rise of PC gaming and PS2 era and the downfall of arcades). They repeated the major fuckup of discontinuing a console after just 2-3 years, and they repeated the major fuckup of making their console just an arcade port machine, filling it with fighting games, racing games, and arcade ports, and few exclusives and story driven games. Yes the dreamcast was powerful for its time, yes it was simple to develop for, but the thing was that with PC gaming and PS1/2 people realised they cared more about deeper more time consuming experiences for their home entertainment. They didn't want to pay 60-70 euros per game just so they can play a few fights in Virtua Fighter and be bored, or play some Crazy Taxi and see everything the game has to provide after a couple of hours. They wanted to play Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Zelda Ocarina of Time, Baldur's Gate, etc etc, games that couldn't/wouldn't be made for arcades but were perfect for home users who could immerse themselves in the story and get their money's worth. Dreamcast didn't provide that, again, despite a few overrated efforts like Skies of Arcadia.

In the end, the problem with SEGA was their fixation with Arcade gaming. They never managed to figure it out, clearly shown by the fact that they kept repeating the same mistake with multiple console releases. I was a Nintendo fanboy as a kid, but after i became a PC gamer-only, i did play a lot of SEGA games on emulators. I clearly saw the appeal, SEGA games did have their own charm, don't get me wrong. But the thing is, looking back, i wouldn't want to pay full cartridge price in order to play those roms. If i went back in the early 90s, i would still want to play Zelda, Mario, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger and Metroid, instead of Sonic and arcade ports. I can also clearly see that SNES games looked and sounded better. In the end, if i had to buy a home console, it would only be a NES/SNES. But since the SEGA games are mostly arcade-like, i still find them better to play in short bursts in emulators these days, since i don't have to be immersed in them, just some casual fun, exactly like they were in the arcades. Emulators are free anyway and piracy is not wrong.

PS: The main difference between Arcade and Home gaming is that Arcade games tend to be designed for short playtimes and ideally hard to play in order to force you to enter more coins, or leave the machine to the next guy. Home games don't have this issue, so they could drop the excess "hardcore" difficulty and focus more on immersing the player and providing more playtime for the dollar. And an additional downside to arcade gaming, is that it typically produces less emotional attachment to the players. Story driven games can have a more lasting impact, and thus create more brand loyalty.
 
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Wyatt_Derp

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Another console on the video game market. Yeah, that's something we definitely need in these days.

With the lack of available XBOX-S/X and PS5s in stores, SEGA could win by default just by having theirs in stores.

As they say in China, 'he who has the cookie, has the fortune.'
 

Daithos

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Sega sold out partial rights to Sonic to Nintendo, right? Something like that? How would they mascot whatever they put out aside from doing a retro Dreamcast release?
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

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The main difference between the Genesis and SNES is that the Genesis was for kids with friends and an otherwise bustling social life.

You think some SNES loser was getting his pals excited by saying, "let's go to my place after school so we can READ some more with the latest JRPG I bought!" Yeah, right. That shit probably set back their English skills by five years based on some of those fuckin' SHIT translation jobs. Meanwhile the Genesis mind was kept quick and adaptable, making them ideal hunter-killers for the Quake 3 Arena battlefields.
 

TemplarGR

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The main difference between the Genesis and SNES is that the Genesis was for kids with friends and an otherwise bustling social life.

You think some SNES loser was getting his pals excited by saying, "let's go to my place after school so we can READ some more with the latest JRPG I bought!" Yeah, right. That shit probably set back their English skills by five years based on some of those fuckin' SHIT translation jobs. Meanwhile the Genesis mind was kept quick and adaptable, making them ideal hunter-killers for the Quake 3 Arena battlefields.

Some of my fontest memories as a kid were gathering with 5-6 friends to play SNES games.... I didn't play JRPGs as a kid, we mostly played platformers (Mario and Donkey Kong shat on Sonic everytime), sports games (fifa was better on the snes), fighting games (MK2 and Super Street Fighter ii, much better on the SNES), and beatemups like TMNT Turtles in Time. So you are wrong, there were plenty of cool games to play with friends.
 

Falksi

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There were many problems with SEGA. I grew up as a kid in the NES vs Master System generation. I began playing at 8bit, and enjoyed the console wars back then. I was always a Nintendo fanboy during the 8bit and 16bit generations. I lived through SEGAs mistakes, and i am not sure i agree with everything in the OP video. For example backwards compatibility was a nothingburger. Back then console technology grew by leaps and bounds with each generation, and honestly, no one would buy the Saturn to play Mega Drive (not Genesis, Mega Drive, american plebs, that's how the world called it besides you snobs) games. If someone wanted to play Mega Drive games, he could just keep his older Mega Drive. But the jump in quality was huge in the 32 bit era. No one cared about running 16bit games when you had 32 bit 3d graphics consoles and cdroms...

No, the main issue SEGA faced, was that they were an Arcade gaming company through and through. That means they treated their home consoles as platforms to bring their arcade games inside the home. They didn't particularly care about the differences between home gaming and arcade gaming. They did make some home-specific games, like Sonic the Hedgeog or Phantasy Star, but the vast majority of their catalogue were simply arcade ports and sports games. Nintendo on the other hand, while they did have some arcade games of their own (Donkey Kong for example), they quickly realised that the future was with home entertainment and even as early as the NES era they focused on creating home-focused games. NES and SNES did have their fair share of arcade ports, but most of their games were home-tailored. They were also more suited to little kids and families, and most people in the home bought consoles for those demographics, younger and older adults who wanted some arcade action could just go to the nearest arcade and play while also socializing instead (and to be honest, having experienced the glory days of arcades, i do miss them, there was a REAL social kind of gaming in those places, it was fun and i am sad that the newer generations never got to experience it, online multiplayer just isn't the same).

Now, one additional problem this arcade-focused approach had, was that arcades progressed in technology much faster than home consoles. Each arcade video game had each own machine, thus every year with new games, better machine platforms were used, while in home consoles, families didn't want to upgrade them yearly. Thus home consoles stagnated in terms of power until the next generation was released. So, with both Master System and Mega Drive, SEGA soon faced the issue that their arcade ports couldn't do the originals justice due to how lower specced their home consoles were. This lead them to the stupid hardware decisions the video mentioned, with MEGA CD and 32X upgrades. Both were attempts to improve their ports, but adoption was so low that they were barely utilized in the end. On the other hand, Nintendo went much smarter with the SNES: They tailored the SNES hardware to have less cpu processing power, but more graphical power and better sound co-processor chips, with additional capability of introducing game-specific co-processors inside game cartridges(so when an advanced SNES game needed additional power, the chip was added inside and didn't need a console upgrade). Mega Drive had a much stronger cpu, which made arcade porting easier, but had much lower visual and audio quality. This meant that games written for the SNES and making great use of the co-processors, could be much better in graphics and sound. Which is what actually happened historically. The SNES made the Mega Drive appear weak in multiplatform games, and the SNES exclusives were often a half-generation ahead of whatever the Mega Drive had. Plus the SNES nailed it with more story driven games and platformers, solidifying it as THE console to get for home entertainment (which is why, even though it launched 2 years later, by the end of the 16 bit era the SNES had sold more units).

With the Saturn, SEGA showcased to the world how completely out of touch they were with what the home audience wanted. They commited 2(+1) major fuckups with the Saturn. The first fuckup, was that they displayed to the gaming community that buying their hardware was a gamble, seeing how poorly supported the Mega CD and 32X were and how soon they discontinued them in favor of a new console. The second fuckup, was that seeing what Nintendo had done with the SNES, regarding its slower cpu + coprocessors design, they decided to do the same thing with the Saturn, and filled it to the brim with slow cpus and co-processing units that were a major pain in the ass to program for. Only their software strategy didn't change, they still wanted to just make it an arcade port machine.... Their own software houses never utilized the hardware properly to make quality home-focused exclusive games, and the multilpatforms couldn't be bothered since they wanted to have release date parity with the much simpler PS1. Thus they just released shittier versions on the Saturn that didn't utilize 100% of the hardware and called it a day. Bonus fuckup that they didn't expect polygonal graphics to be a big thing in the 32bit era and while technically the Saturn was much more powerful hardware-wise than a PS1, it was still slower to render 3D polygonal graphics, though with major programming sorcery (that only 1st party devs had an incentive to use) they could come close in a few games.

I disagree with the common myth that "the Dreamcast was a good console, that SEGA had finally learned from their mistakes but sadly the Dreamcast failed". No, the Dreamcast was in fact just as shitty as their previous consoles if not shittier due to being completely out of touch with the market at that point (the rise of PC gaming and PS2 era and the downfall of arcades). They repeated the major fuckup of discontinuing a console after just 2-3 years, and they repeated the major fuckup of making their console just an arcade port machine, filling it with fighting games, racing games, and arcade ports, and few exclusives and story driven games. Yes the dreamcast was powerful for its time, yes it was simple to develop for, but the thing was that with PC gaming and PS1/2 people realised they cared more about deeper more time consuming experiences for their home entertainment. They didn't want to pay 60-70 euros per game just so they can play a few fights in Virtua Fighter and be bored, or play some Crazy Taxi and see everything the game has to provide after a couple of hours. They wanted to play Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Zelda Ocarina of Time, Baldur's Gate, etc etc, games that couldn't/wouldn't be made for arcades but were perfect for home users who could immerse themselves in the story and get their money's worth. Dreamcast didn't provide that, again, despite a few overrated efforts like Skies of Arcadia.

In the end, the problem with SEGA was their fixation with Arcade gaming. They never managed to figure it out, clearly shown by the fact that they kept repeating the same mistake with multiple console releases. I was a Nintendo fanboy as a kid, but after i became a PC gamer-only, i did play a lot of SEGA games on emulators. I clearly saw the appeal, SEGA games did have their own charm, don't get me wrong. But the thing is, looking back, i wouldn't want to pay full cartridge price in order to play those roms. If i went back in the early 90s, i would still want to play Zelda, Mario, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger and Metroid, instead of Sonic and arcade ports. I can also clearly see that SNES games looked and sounded better. In the end, if i had to buy a home console, it would only be a NES/SNES. But since the SEGA games are mostly arcade-like, i still find them better to play in short bursts in emulators these days, since i don't have to be immersed in them, just some casual fun, exactly like they were in the arcades. Emulators are free anyway and piracy is not wrong.

PS: The main difference between Arcade and Home gaming is that Arcade games tend to be designed for short playtimes and ideally hard to play in order to force you to enter more coins, or leave the machine to the next guy. Home games don't have this issue, so they could drop the excess "hardcore" difficulty and focus more on immersing the player and providing more playtime for the dollar. And an additional downside to arcade gaming, is that it typically produces less emotional attachment to the players. Story driven games can have a more lasting impact, and thus create more brand loyalty.

Sorry dude but that's not quite true.

I was recently chatting with C&VG + Mean Machines' legend Julian Rignall about SEGA's approach to home console gaming, and after replaying around 200 odd Megadrive games now I commented on how surprised I was how many tweaks there were from the arcade versions to the home versions. He stated that SEGA was very conscious about the difference between the two, and that's why they made significant tweaks to the home versions in the first place (Extra levels in Golden Axe, significantly different setup to the console Shinobi games, the ability to use different Beasts in different levels in Altered Beast via cheats etc.) Of course it was a more arcade based experience in general still, but they were aware of that and adjusted accordingly.

Now I agree that, at the time, Nintendo's depth with games like LTTP & Super Metroid helped them snag more home gamers. But that's also why a new SEGA system would be ideal for now - because no-one's really focusing on the arcade experience any more.

I mean, Streets of Rage 4 is a great blast on the PC & Switch, but package that with an exclusive sequel & it's predecessors, along with several other franchizes & their modern sequels, all built into a ÂŁ50-100 home TV multiplayer console, and folk would lap it up. No faff, no mess, no downloading, no gimmicky controls etc. Just plug in play for the family both dad's generation & modern sequels of gaming. If anything the SEGA games are now more relevant because both kids and adults want an easy-to-get -into 20-60 min arcade experience, and not many front-room consoles focus on that.

Hell half the reason a lot of folk I know don't play games on any system any more is because of all the bullshit you have to go through to actually play a game on some of these modern systems all trying to be PCs. Offer them an affordable plug & play updated of their 90's experience and I'm sure it'd do well enough.

The Amiga 500 console gets released next year. I'll be snapping one up as I'm sure most my mates will. I know we can play these on PC already, but that's not that same as sticking it on in the front room for family & friends entertainment.
 
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TemplarGR

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I was recently chatting with C&VG + Mean Machines' legend Julian Rignall about SEGA's approach to home console gaming, and after replaying around 200 odd Megadrive games now I commented on how surprised I was how many tweaks there were from the arcade versions to the home versions. He stated that SEGA was very conscious about the difference between the two, and that's why they made significant tweaks to the home versions in the first place (Extra levels in Golden Axe, significantly different setup to the console Shinobi games, the ability to use different Beasts in different levels in Altered Beast via cheats etc.) Of course it was a more arcade based experience in general still, but they were aware of that and adjusted accordingly.

Making some minor tweaks on arcade games does not change their nature. A few extra levels, extra characters, some cheats, etc etc, do not make them fundamentally different. Obviously some tweaks were needed for the home versions, for example they had to remove the instert coin functionality and replace it with "lives" and "continues", plus they typically lowered the difficulty a little compared to most arcade stores. In the end, they were still just not immersive many hours long experiences like most single players games are.

The thing is, the Mega Drive games you reference are typically late 80s/early 90s games. Back in the 80s gaming era, single player gaming wasn't advanced enough. RPGs were barebones, even on PCs. Adventures too. The 80s were very early in the video gaming history, and mostly focused on arcade style games and platformers. So it was natural that the difference between arcade gaming and home gaming wasn't that pronounced, which is why for the first few years of the Mega Drive, SEGA actually was winning the market and selling units. Mega Drive was their best console, after all, for that very reason. It released during the peak of the arcade golden age and as a result their arcade-focus didn't hurt the console much, not until the mid 90s and SNES's onslaught of JRPGs and advanced platformers/superior graphically arcade ports.

The shift towards more home-focused, single player, long campaign gaming, began after the SNES and PC showcased such games to the masses. The PS1, which was essentially a beefed up SNES-CD and even got most of the previously nintendo-only game developers onboard, continued the trend. So by the time Saturn and Dreamcast released, their arcade ports didn't impress many people, most were interested in immersive experiences like Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Resident Evil, Dino Crisis, Final Fantasy, and so many other RPGs, Adventures, and Action Adventures. SEGA just didn't offer enough such experiences, and their multiplats mostly sucked.
 

Falksi

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I was recently chatting with C&VG + Mean Machines' legend Julian Rignall about SEGA's approach to home console gaming, and after replaying around 200 odd Megadrive games now I commented on how surprised I was how many tweaks there were from the arcade versions to the home versions. He stated that SEGA was very conscious about the difference between the two, and that's why they made significant tweaks to the home versions in the first place (Extra levels in Golden Axe, significantly different setup to the console Shinobi games, the ability to use different Beasts in different levels in Altered Beast via cheats etc.) Of course it was a more arcade based experience in general still, but they were aware of that and adjusted accordingly.

Making some minor tweaks on arcade games does not change their nature. A few extra levels, extra characters, some cheats, etc etc, do not make them fundamentally different. Obviously some tweaks were needed for the home versions, for example they had to remove the instert coin functionality and replace it with "lives" and "continues", plus they typically lowered the difficulty a little compared to most arcade stores. In the end, they were still just not immersive many hours long experiences like most single players games are.

The thing is, the Mega Drive games you reference are typically late 80s/early 90s games. Back in the 80s gaming era, single player gaming wasn't advanced enough. RPGs were barebones, even on PCs. Adventures too. The 80s were very early in the video gaming history, and mostly focused on arcade style games and platformers. So it was natural that the difference between arcade gaming and home gaming wasn't that pronounced, which is why for the first few years of the Mega Drive, SEGA actually was winning the market and selling units. Mega Drive was their best console, after all, for that very reason. It released during the peak of the arcade golden age and as a result their arcade-focus didn't hurt the console much, not until the mid 90s and SNES's onslaught of JRPGs and advanced platformers/superior graphically arcade ports.

The shift towards more home-focused, single player, long campaign gaming, began after the SNES and PC showcased such games to the masses. The PS1, which was essentially a beefed up SNES-CD and even got most of the previously nintendo-only game developers onboard, continued the trend. So by the time Saturn and Dreamcast released, their arcade ports didn't impress many people, most were interested in immersive experiences like Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Resident Evil, Dino Crisis, Final Fantasy, and so many other RPGs, Adventures, and Action Adventures. SEGA just didn't offer enough such experiences, and their multiplats mostly sucked.

Course not, I agree they are still very much Arcade experiences. I was just disputing the fact that, as you claimed "They didn't particularly care about the differences between home gaming and arcade gaming." SEGA clearly did, because they paid people to change games with that in mind.

But regards "not immersive many hours long experiences" there are plenty of those too, they're just not as recognized on the Megadrive. A few examples off the top of my head of the better ones:
  • Shadowrun
  • Shining series
  • Phantasy Star series
  • Crusader of Centy/Soliel
  • Buck Rogers CTD
  • The Immortal
  • Ecco series
  • Flashback
  • The Strike Series
  • Landstalker
  • Light Crusader
  • Magical Hat
  • Star Trek (can't remember which one)
  • King Colossus
  • Pirates! Gold
  • Star Flight
  • Warsong
  • Blackthorne
  • Star Control
Etc.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but that's what I think has changed now, largely due to Covid. The slowdown in games released, the collective family time which has increased on the retro consoles, and everyone wanting to go out and do things more now they appreciate said stuff more after having it restricted so heavily during Covid, has changed a lot of people's mindsets towards what they want out of gaming now. And the arcade experience is back in vogue to a certain degree.
 

Higher Animal

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While it's entirely possible for an arcade game to be superficial, short, and simple. It's just as likely the case that they can require great precision, skill, and have loads of strategic depth. The success of the Genesis, and in japan, the saturn, prove that these games are not wholly rejected by most people. Even Crazy Taxi has loads of gameplay depth.

The entire premise of multiplayer games, MOBA games, esports, essentially vindicates arcade style gameplay. More importantly, whatever the limitations were to arcade cabinets, the focus on creating skill based games with depth is still what most games wish to offer. It's also worth noting that Sonic (a legitimate innovation in platforming games from the Mario period) was designed conscientiously around the Genesis hardware's specific strengths, which is technically what arcade gaming is about (designing, aesthetically and functionally, a gaming experience with a specific hardware).

In any case, these conversations are moot because most if not all of Sega's talent has left or is hanging on by a thread, and the company is just as involved in things like Pachinko than it is in gaming. And they don't have the market share to get involved in a console war, not to mention the natural limitations on resources for technology and the centralizing tendency of most of corporate capitalism to push new entrees away. There seems to be nobody in the company with a huge vision anymore, and their lack of vision can even be found in current console makers who don't have much of a vision for the future either.
 

Higher Animal

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Also, fwiw, Ecco the Dolphin and Shenmue are in any top list of immersive single player adventures. There was no limitations that Sega had as a company in this regard.
 

InSight

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I disagree with the common myth that "the Dreamcast was a good console, that SEGA had finally learned from their mistakes but sadly the Dreamcast failed". No, the Dreamcast was in fact just as shitty as their previous consoles if not shittier due to being completely out of touch with the market at that point (the rise of PC gaming and PS2 era and the downfall of arcades). They repeated the major fuckup of discontinuing a console after just 2-3 years, and they repeated the major fuckup of making their console just an arcade port machine, filling it with fighting games, racing games, and arcade ports, and few exclusives and story driven games. Yes the dreamcast was powerful for its time, yes it was simple to develop for, but the thing was that with PC gaming and PS1/2 people realised they cared more about deeper more time consuming experiences for their home entertainment. They didn't want to pay 60-70 euros per game just so they can play a few fights in Virtua Fighter and be bored, or play some Crazy Taxi and see everything the game has to provide after a couple of hours.

I have read that the Dreamcast had online capabilities making it an advance console and had a game Phantasy Star Online that made use of it. "As such, the Dreamcast was the first console to include a built-in modem for Internet support and online play. Sega would end up leaning heavily into the online capabilities to sell the Dreamcast as hype grew for Sony 's then-upcoming competitor, the PlayStation 2, which also promised online gaming in addition to its DVD capabilities." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamcast_online_functionality

How or why one would refer to that which provided a cutting edge feature, which was not done before thus an advancement (at least in its field) be compared to exertion? One should value the pioneering and foresight included in its design/creation/construction.

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The topic also reminds of an article stating that with Sega ended hardcore gaming or the value that came with it. The expertise or dedication that allowed one to collect/find games ordinary/common player would not come across and these games be good as if one has shown a gem found in a desert, since not all games were imported despite being good. In our time, good/advance/hardcore games would often find them-self in the "main-stream", not missed.
 

TemplarGR

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But regards "not immersive many hours long experiences" there are plenty of those too, they're just not as recognized on the Megadrive. A few examples off the top of my head of the better ones:

Many of those were multiplats. Also some were not on the base Mega Drive and required addons IIRC, for example i don't think Blackthorne released a non 32X version.

The entire premise of multiplayer games, MOBA games, esports, essentially vindicates arcade style gameplay

Multiplayer games are not the same as arcade games in significant design ways. For one, arcade games more often than not were still played by 1 player, they just weren't story/campaign focused and were more "pick up and play" style of games. Also, the multiplayer arcade games typically didn't have much complexity because it would be difficult for casual arcade visitors to involve themselves with them. Also remember that the target of arcade stores were to service as many people as possible, sell them drinks, etc, not have a few nerds play for hours upon hours upon hours. So they were typically tough in terms of difficulty, but not very complex or deep.

On the other hand, most modern multiplayer games tend to require a significant time investment in order to learn and become skillful in them. Very rarely esports and other multiplayer games can be pick up and play.
 

Higher Animal

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Multiplayer games are not the same as arcade games in significant design ways. For one, arcade games more often than not were still played by 1 player, they just weren't story/campaign focused and were more "pick up and play" style of games. Also, the multiplayer arcade games typically didn't have much complexity because it would be difficult for casual arcade visitors to involve themselves with them. Also remember that the target of arcade stores were to service as many people as possible, sell them drinks, etc, not have a few nerds play for hours upon hours upon hours. So they were typically tough in terms of difficulty, but not very complex or deep.

On the other hand, most modern multiplayer games tend to require a significant time investment in order to learn and become skillful in them. Very rarely esports and other multiplayer games can be pick up and play.

3D fighting is arguably the most complex genre in videogames and it was birthed in arcades.
 

TemplarGR

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I have read that the Dreamcast had online capabilities making it an advance console and had a game Phantasy Star Online that made use of it. "As such, the Dreamcast was the first console to include a built-in modem for Internet support and online play. Sega would end up leaning heavily into the online capabilities to sell the Dreamcast as hype grew for Sony 's then-upcoming competitor, the PlayStation 2, which also promised online gaming in addition to its DVD capabilities." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamcast_online_functionality

How or why one would refer to that which provided a cutting edge feature, which was not done before thus an advancement (at least in its field) be compared to exertion? One should value the pioneering and foresight included in its design/creation/construction.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

The topic also reminds of an article stating that with Sega ended hardcore gaming or the value that came with it. The expertise or dedication that allowed one to collect/find games ordinary/common player would not come across and these games be good as if one has shown a gem found in a desert, since not all games were imported despite being good. In our time, good/advance/hardcore games would often find them-self in the "main-stream", not missed.

Well, for one, IIRC Nintendo was first with online multiplayer with the SNES Satellite addon. IIRC it wasn't released outside Japan, i am bored to google for it. In any case, while the built-in modem was a great feature, it was useless because unless you wanted to play Phantasy Star Online it served almost no real purpose. The main issue with the Dreamcast, just like the rest of SEGA consoles, was never the hardware, it was the software. Master System, Mega Drive, Saturn, Dreamcast, all had viable hardware capable of producing great games for their respective eras. They just were never utilized properly (aka they didn't deliver enough games designed for the home market), while on the other hand Nintendo and Sony got more from their own hardware. Also, Panasonic 3DO, Atari Jaguar, SNK Neo Geo, AMIGA CD32 etc, all had great hardware, but still the games failed to sell consoles. Consoles without games to play are dead weight, you might as well buy a PC.

As i said in previous posts, SEGA was great if you were interested in playing mostly arcade games in your home. There were exclusive home-focused choices but they never were the main attraction. It was the exact opposite with Nintendo and Sony, both got plenty of arcade ports but they mostly brought exclusives and designed-for-home games. Dreamcast didn't change that, thus it failed.
 

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