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Improve Fallout 1/2's combat

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Nov 23, 2017
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I’m a little surprised we’ve yet to see any Fallout spin-off game with a combat system like some version of XCOM or Valkyria Chronicles. It’s almost odd by this point, it’s been almost 15 years since Fallout 3 came out and a few more years than that since they got the Fallout license, but they’ve yet to make any kind of gesture towards the original series combat... and the original series is something they profess to love.
 

Wayward Son

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I’m a little surprised we’ve yet to see any Fallout spin-off game with a combat system like some version of XCOM or Valkyria Chronicles. It’s almost odd by this point, it’s been almost 15 years since Fallout 3 came out and a few more years than that since they got the Fallout license, but they’ve yet to make any kind of gesture towards the original series combat... and the original series is something they profess to love.
Fallout Tactics…
 

mondblut

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Nothing, Fallout is not a combat simulation game. Retard companions spraying friendlies are a feature, not a bug. Have a chuckle and reload.
 

Wayward Son

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Having thought about this before...

Base Systems
1: Crouch and prone positions (instead ranged accuracy, lower enemy ranged accuracy, better sneak and better use of cover at the cost of higher move cost, worse melee and the AP cost of position shifts). Full control of companions in combat. Guns take accuracy penalty based on distance to enemy (handguns work fine even when adjacent, carbines work fine unless the enemy is directly adjacent, long rifles take large penalties without multiple hexes clear, and big guns need hexes all around instead of just between). Basic tactical layer things.
2: All humanoids have a base AP of 5 and gain another 3 AP per point of Agility. This frees the system of the retardation with breakpoints that come with a single digit AP count (a firing cost of 4 means a 8 AP character you can fire twice as fast as a character with 7 could but a character with 9, 10, or 11 fires exactly as fast as one with 8) and allows including minor actions with AP cost. Also allows "damage" to AP without being instant win.
3: Suppression fire is a thing. Misses (so long as it was reasonably close) will damage the AP of most targets (robots and some "feral" mutants which are so rabid to have no concept of morale are immune) on their next turn depending on "noise" of a cartridge. This means burst isn't just a quasi-melee ability, but an effective tool to shut down certain dangerous enemies. Some weapons/cartridges have pen modifiers making them high damage low pen (black powder rifle or 12 gauge slug) or high pen despite lower damage (5.56). Suppression effect is resisted by Charisma so that has a combat use.
4: Melee users get a free attack on anyone leaving their reach unless the mover pays extra AP. (makes it harder to run away from melee)
5: Rather than opening the inventory costing AP, using something from it or swapping weapons has a per item AP cost, and a character has a limited number of "ready" slots limited to smaller items (grenades, pistols, knives, knuckles, healing items, lights) where this cost is reduced. Less shenanigans, more use for smaller items.
6: Light is important to hit anything, but portable electric lights are common and their power isn't tracked short of being able to remove the battery (primarily to fuel energy weapons). Lights can be worn, thrown or placed (and setting something on fire creates light) so you have to plan lighting to make enemies vulnerable without making yourself vulnerable. Later game lets you find night vision, but you get penalties in heavy light and a penalty to aimed shots when using it.
7: Big guns are not a thing, just a pairing of strength and guns.
8: Projectiles are simulated rather than be simple hit chance.

Health:
1: HP is ((Endurance*10)+(endurance*2*(level-1))). This means HP depends more on Endurance, and is large enough to allow for weak attacks to deal damage consistently (instead of quickly overwhelming HP or having to be rounded down to zero) while small enough to be appreciable (at level 20 a max endurance character has only 400 HP compared to his starting value of 100, and a 5 endurance character has a starting value of 50 and 240 at level 20)
2: Single shots from weapons are damaging (a rifle or heavy stab with a spear from an average user might deal damage in the 30s). Later weapons are more dangerous because they can be used faster and are accurate enough to hit more vulnerable areas. HP sponges are never fun.
3: Bleeding is a thing for edged/pointed weapons and guns (not blunt or energy), dealing damage until the character receives healing.
4: Characters under half and under a quarter of their max HP take penalties until healed (by any amount). Combined with the above, it stops "spreading damage is useless because 1 HP enemy is as deadly as full HP enemy" nonsense.
5: Use a DT system for armor and let it nullify damage entirely, but armor only protects limited parts of the body (typically just torso for body armor and head for helmet). This means aimed shots have a point to exist beyond eyes for damage, groin in melee for stun and torso because you have nothing better to do with that one AP and might as well get a slightly better crit chance since the enemy can't reach you so the extra AC doesn't mater. Now the arm and (especially) legs shots are how you damage armored targets you can't penetrate without the huge accuracy sacrifice of a face shot. It also makes power armor scarier and more distinct: It's not just tough, but it protects the whole body.

Weapons
1: Use the rules Sawyer made for NV when designing weapon stats. No "strictly better" upgrades, all weapons should have a reason to use them over the rest of their tier, a reason to use the rest of the tier over them, and not all weapon types ("shotgun", "pistol", "distance rifle") have an entry each tier.
2: Guns are reasonably common, but most ammo, especially exotic ammo, is relatively rare and expensive due to being a limited resource and rarely stored in a condition to last the end of the world. Black powder, 22lr, and shotgun shells are reasonably common (and more than enough for a gun specialist to never be totally out of ammo, so long as he's willing to use an inferior weapon) due to post-war production and sheer pre-war quantity respectively, but that fancy .44 magnum is just a paperweight if you expend the cartridges you found it with and can't get more. Needing ammo is Gun's weakness compared to unarmed, melee so it should actually mater.
3: New Vegas's cartridge reloading system is in. Turning stuff that's useful for other characters (instead of just useless except for crafting) into stuff useful for you and turning limited resources into your choice of consumables remains one of the few crafting systems that's actually fun. Also makes explosives more viable as primary if you can make improvised grenades from powder, lead and scrap metal.
4: Ala Morrowind, fodder enemies use crap weapons with minimum trade value for their weight (post-war muzzleloaders, single/double shotguns, plinking rifles) where their limited ammo supplies are worth more than the guns. They're threats because their numbers make up for their low fire rate/damage and give them more chances to "get lucky". This cuts down on bandits being gold mines and picking up everything to loot (some shit just isn't worth it), but the changes to HP and AP means their numbers will keep them a threat.
5: Manually operated guns cost the same AP as a self loader to fire, but need the pump/rack done after firing (pump action, bolt action) or cocking done before firing (single action revolvers, flintlocks) as separate actions that cost AP. This allows for more system finesse than a weapon just being slower to fire and forces more tactical options (do you wait till you're in cover to work the bolt or do you do it immediately? Ambushes are more effective.). A SA/DA handgun can fire DA instead of cocking at a cost of lower accuracy.
6: Energy weapons are relatively common at all stages, instead of non-existent early, rare mid and common late like F1/F2 (which is just unworkable without meta knowledge and broken with it). They have low suppression but generally low strength requirements and tend to have secondary effects (for example lasers have high armor AP, plasma sets targets on fire, electric damages action points if it hits, concussion pushes enemy back/down, wave has low damage but ignores armor and thinner cover entirely) which make swapping between multiple energy weapons viable. The early ones are "recharger" systems, which automatically recover ammo each round (but less than you could fire), or take standard "domestic" batteries. Some have internal batteries and can take any type of battery but need hours to pull that charge (making them quasi per-day expendables).
7: Smoke grenades are a thing.
The base systems section was just “port to Fallout Tactics”
 

deuxhero

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Tactics did do a lot of those, but far from all. Action Points still use the same formula from 1/2, there's no suppression fire, flashlights only exist in cut items, big guns is still a thing, I don't think it has melee attack on leaving melee or per-item AP cost for inventory manipulation.
 

Bester

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Why the attack of opportunity? So it becomes cheaper on your health to not run away from a guy with a knife? Seems counter-intuitive, since in real life there would be a lot of running away.
 

deuxhero

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Bester
It's only cheaper if he can only get one further stab in. Also you typically run away from a knife user before he's in stab range.

Without it, running away from a melee user is trivial if you're as fast or faster than they are. F1/F2's higher end melee creatures have to have more than 10 AP to stop players from abusing this. Also it enhances the weakness of guns in melee.
 
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I’m a little surprised we’ve yet to see any Fallout spin-off game with a combat system like some version of XCOM or Valkyria Chronicles. It’s almost odd by this point, it’s been almost 15 years since Fallout 3 came out and a few more years than that since they got the Fallout license, but they’ve yet to make any kind of gesture towards the original series combat... and the original series is something they profess to love.
Fallout Tactics…

Not a game produced under Bethesda. Tactics came a few years before Bethesda got the rights.

It just seems some kind of Fallout game with some kind of turn based tactical combat system would’ve been a no brainer for Bethesda to produce (they wouldn’t even need to be the developers on it) in the years after Fallout 3... and yet it’s never happened. Fallout Shelter is a thing, but there’s been no new tactical Fallout game for 22 years; be it a RPG built similar to 1 & 2, or something more X-COM like. Seems like a win win too. Post Fallout 3 with the brand having a far higher level of awareness a tactical Fallout would definitely sell, (likely sell far better than any other game with tactical combat ever has) and it’d also make the old Fallout fans that hate the direction Bethesda took things happy. Would be easier to market too, because every game’s outlet would be doing stories on it pretending they give a shit a new Fallout with tactical combat was coming out.
 

ind33d

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In an alternative timeline, you're the lead game designer on a real, isometric Fallout 3. Your job is to improve Fallout's combat system.

A cover system - would it even benefit F1/2? After all, side-stepping behind a corner already provides a cover.
Controllable companions - is it really necessary? It's a game about loneliness and melancholy, after all.
What else you got?
companions stay but it's like XCOM where they're randomly generated and scale up the combat to be skirmish level
 

laclongquan

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Tactics did do a lot of those, but far from all. Action Points still use the same formula from 1/2, there's no suppression fire, flashlights only exist in cut items, big guns is still a thing, I don't think it has melee attack on leaving melee or per-item AP cost for inventory manipulation.
What do you mean no suppression fire? When I set my teammates on suppression fire duty, and target appear in zone, they get fire spray on their face. Even if far distance weakened that, stay for too long and we can do enough damage to heavy injury or kill.

Melee, it has melee. In Fallout melee is a niche, but Tactics does have it. You generally need high sneak to supplement it, or guns will stitch your corpse, though.
 

Harthwain

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Bester
It's only cheaper if he can only get one further stab in. Also you typically run away from a knife user before he's in stab range.

Without it, running away from a melee user is trivial if you're as fast or faster than they are. F1/F2's higher end melee creatures have to have more than 10 AP to stop players from abusing this. Also it enhances the weakness of guns in melee.
You could make breaking away from melee cost APs. That way you don't even need an attack of opportunity. And with huge accuracy penalty to close range (or not even being allowed to use your weapon) it would require other solutions than simply kiting enemies. Especially with more than a single combatants present.
 

Trithne

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I'm oddly enamoured with the idea of this almost overly detailed gun simulator where cycling the action is a separate action one takes, and distinguishing between SA and DA pistols. It would fit a Post-Apoc game well too. You could argue that "reload" actions are supposed to cover that in most games, but I dunno, I'm just really intrigued by this idea and want to subscribe to its newsletter.
 

Jigby

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May 9, 2009
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338
What I'd like to play would be something like a postapocalyptic Combat Mission. Disregarding that, I just have a couple of points on Interplay Fallout.

- patch out the AI exploits. There's no point in improving FO's combat without this. The AI doesn't have to be good, just fix the exploits. The bad implication of this is unarmed/melee being worthless, since they mostly relied on AI exploits. Not sure what to do about them, in a world of gauss rifles, making a spear work is squaring the circle situation. Maybe HtH could use BoS-tier ballistic shields?

- some nerfing towards inventory usage. Entering the inventory should be a full-round action, requiring all of your AP (including bonus move points, so no breaking LOS), irrespective of how many you got, with minimum being the old 4AP. Meaning on <4AP you can't enter the inventory. This would make quick pockets more useless, then again, it was always useless, its only saving grace being the other lvl 3 perks being equally useless

- one-way barriers. This really comes from JA1's titanium bushes. I think FO could have something like an improvised ballistic shield, holding it in 1 hand while the other holds the weapon. This would encourage flanking, ballistic shield being facing dependent, it would also encourage using grenades (you could throw them on the hex next to the critter, or maybe the bonus AC would ignored). It would also help in differentiating between rifles and handguns. Rifles obviously coudn't be used with the shield. I think the shield should provide the AC bonus even to the critter behind the shield's critter (along the attack vector), so you could have a critter with the shield + a critter with a gauss rifle. AI improvements required obv.

- Ability to control mechanic NPCs. Right now the difference between bio and mechanic is lame. Mechanic can be repaired, bio can be drugged ad infinitum. Bio is clearly better. I think being able to control robots makes sense, you could make some in-universe explanation, the NPC being interfaced with the pipboy or w/e. Controllable mechanic NPCs would also help with flanking.

- More granularity in the perk system. Not combat per se, but it all needs improvement. Right now, there's not much choice in the perk selection, after you take the must have perks, you're left with very few perk slots. On a lvl 15 char you pretty much always have bonus_move+better_criticals+bonus_attacks. You're left with just 2 perks, one being a lvl 3 perk (i.e. worthless). Having a new perk every 2nd lvl would be too much. There could be some maladjusted perks/mutated perks/whatever that would give the player some penalty in exchange of a new perk slot. Kind of like when you give yourself negative perks in moo2 to have more positive perks.

- better/new/revised traits/perks that take into consideration the above points

I think about a half of these could be done in sfall, the other half, the important half, would probably require the reversed version. Particularly the AI part and the perk system.
 
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Wayward Son

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This would make quick pockets more useless, then again, it was always useless, its only saving grace being the other lvl 3 perks being equally useless
I can see a way to rebalance Quick Pockets to make it better under this system: namely leave two AP pips to move (specifically, even if otherwise you don’t have them), that way you can heal then run and hide, which would be worth a perk.
 

Bester

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More granularity in the perk system. Not combat per se, but it all needs improvement. Right now, there's not much choice in the perk selection, after you take the must have perks, you're left with very few perk slots. On a lvl 15 char you pretty much always have bonus_move+better_criticals+bonus_attacks.
Separate perks into combat and non-combat. Make the two systems parallel to each other. Player picks both combat and non-combat traits on levelups.
 

Wayward Son

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More granularity in the perk system. Not combat per se, but it all needs improvement. Right now, there's not much choice in the perk selection, after you take the must have perks, you're left with very few perk slots. On a lvl 15 char you pretty much always have bonus_move+better_criticals+bonus_attacks.
Separate perks into combat and non-combat. Make the two systems parallel to each other. Player picks both combat and non-combat traits on levelups.
The fan made fallout pnp does this at least in its first edition
 

KeighnMcDeath

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RTwP for trash mobs.
TB for bosses.
Simultaneous moves.
How about some old old old school quick combat for trash mobs? Say…. Wizard’s Crown/Eternal dagger?

I can’t find a vid but basically a word display of party health & shit vs mob health & crap. Computer calculates and shows wounds and deaths rather quickly and combat is resolved very fast (far quicker than gold box). It could be instant in today’s world. But quick computer combat makes mistakes. You can choose item or spells use before you hit the resolve combat button. Quick n dead and done!
 
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The CPU calculating combat in a game built like a classic Fallout game seems like a bad idea if there’s a possibility your character or party members could take major damage or die. But I guess it could something like what Earthbound does, where if you’re so beyond your enemy you can just auto do the battle could work with random encounters on the world map.

Although you random encounters happen rarely enough it doesn’t really seem like a problem that needs solving. And it doesn’t really seem like something that would work for normal encounters in the regular areas.

RTwP for trash mobs.
TB for bosses.
Simultaneous moves.
How about some old old old school quick combat for trash mobs? Say…. Wizard’s Crown/Eternal dagger?

I can’t find a vid but basically a word display of party health & shit vs mob health & crap. Computer calculates and shows wounds and deaths rather quickly and combat is resolved very fast (far quicker than gold box). It could be instant in today’s world. But quick computer combat makes mistakes. You can choose item or spells use before you hit the resolve combat button. Quick n dead and done!

This shows it.

 
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There does get to be this funny kind of situation with combat where if you’re going to go the direction of the real-time Continuous Turn-Based system of Fallout Tactics, and especially if you’re thinking about just having the player control their player character like in Fallout and Fallout 2, it might actually just be better to go with a third person perspective while still having your action governed by your skills and AP like they would’ve been in Tactics. Like you could take the real time aspect of Tactics and put it in what is essentially a third person shooter, and that’d give you much greater options when sneaking around an environment than Tactics does with its traditional Fallout perspective.

I say it’s funny because “it should be a type of third person shooter” most likely isn’t what anyone here on the Codex really wants to hear, but if someone’s idea is to do the real-time combat of Tactics while just controlling your character, then that’s probably the better way to go. I guess you could always still keep the turn-based system like Tactics does too.
 

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