Is there a strategy game with a good AI?

[Excrément]

so we were talking about the poor AI of the CIV games and I just realized I never played a strategy/sim game with a good AI even if the game was excellent.

I used to play a lot Civ 2, Capitalism 2, MAX (1&2), Railroad Tyccoon (1&2) and always the AI was poor and was the reason I stopped playing the game anymore.

The cheat-AI of Civ 2 angers me, the dumb-AI of MAX 1&2 totally ruins this excellent/awesome game (so you have to play a turnbased multiplayer game which is excellent but you need to have time and patient friends), and the use-the-pause-button-AI-to-win-easily of Capitalism 2 wasn't better.

so is there a strategy game with a good AI? (except chess)

 

[sparrowtm]

Well, there's C-EVO which was posted in the Civ thread and I'm currently trying it out. And of course GalCiv and GalCiv2. Both have reasonable AI, at least on higher difficulty levels - and it is said both games don't cheat.

Other than that, I don't know of a single game AI which doesn't cheat in one way or another/isn't plain dumb/can really be considered challenging

 

[Prime Junta]

Define "good"

If your definition includes "creative, surprising, very, very hard to beat," yeah, it's a tough call. But if it's merely something like "tough enough to make for a challenging, varied, and interesting game at least under the right circumstances" there are a few.

I fell big-time for Rome: Total War, with the Total Realism mod. The AI is tough enough both on the campaign level and the tactical level that playing certain factions is a real challenge, and the AI's gameplay is varied enough to make for quite interesting battles. It adapts to what you're doing well enough that there aren't too many "do X for an automatic win" scenarios. Perfect it isn't, and it does have some pretty obvious weaknesses (e.g. it's pretty bad at utilizing terrain effectively, especially in offense) but it's good enough to make for a challenging and varied game no matter what your level. If you find the game easy when playing as the Ptolemies, try the Gauls out for size. And if you're big on logistics and resource management, try keeping the Seleucid Empire together.

 

[sparrowtm]

Have they managed to stop the generals from doing their famed suicide runs at the beginning of a battle yet?

 

[Atrokkus]

It takes a human mind to pose a significant challenge for a non-newbie player -- that's an axiom at the moment, unfortunately, as no equivalents of the brain exists.

Have you considered playing some of the TB games with friends? I mean, not the online retarded gamespot shit, but directly to your friends?
In games like Homm3 you could do that even through email, and I think there is a way to play through TCPIP avoiding the pay-servers... ANd, of course, if your friend is living in your town, you could just make a modem connection and play all you want.

But the most fun is using hot-seat mode... ahhh, I'm savoring the sheer joy of playing homm3 with my buddies at my workplace... It's a perfect way to spend a lunchbreak.

With CPUs... nah.. it's only for the first playthrough, then it's ALL about multiplayer.

So, basically, just try playing those campaign-bsaed, script-heavy kinds of TBS, where the inferiority of CPU is compensated with good level design and scripted challenges/handicaps that don't look like cheating.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Re: Define "good"

I fell big-time for Rome: Total War, with the Total Realism mod. The AI is tough enough both on the campaign level and the tactical level that playing certain factions is a real challenge, and the AI's gameplay is varied enough to make for quite interesting battles.

So the mod actually improves the AI?
Because the AI , both stategic and battle AI, in RTW Vanilla just plain sucks.

 

[LlamaGod]

Gal Civ 2?

And Rome Total Realism does make the game a heap better since Creative Assembly are a bunch of retards, BUT Barbarian Invasion adds some good shit to the game (stuff that they held back on so they could charge $30 more) and Rome Total Realism 6.0 doesnt support it.

You'll have to wait for RTR7.0 and they are currently taking a million billion fucking years to put it out.

 

[Prime Junta]

Have they managed to stop the generals from doing their famed suicide runs at the beginning of a battle yet?

Yup, they're a lot less gung-ho in version 1.2. What's more, you can now use your reinforcements in "manual control" as long as the total number of units on the map doesn't exceed the usual limit.

 

[Prime Junta]

Re: Define "good"

I fell big-time for Rome: Total War, with the Total Realism mod. The AI is tough enough both on the campaign level and the tactical level that playing certain factions is a real challenge, and the AI's gameplay is varied enough to make for quite interesting battles.

So the mod actually improves the AI?
Because the AI , both stategic and battle AI, in RTW Vanilla just plain sucks.

Not exactly. Version 1.2 of RTW improved the AI somewhat (to be precise, it got rid of a few Really Stupid Things it did). However, Total Realism increases complexity and diversity on the map, which increases the unpredictability of the situations you get into -- enemies ganging up on you, running into different kinds of units more frequently, and so on. The net result is that you get surprised and challenged more often and in different ways... it *feels* like the AI got upgraded even though it actually didn't.

 

[Elwro]

I remember in Imperialism 1 I got my ass handed to me a few times, but I'm not sure if computer didn't cheat. Definitely worth a try if you're looking for a complicated and challenging game.

 

[DenialofSelf]

Has anyone ever tried Dominions 2? It's an indie TBS with an overwhelming amount of options. Dozens of playable factions, hundreds of units, spells and craftable items. The AI isn't the most impressive but it can certainly be annoying on higher difficulty.

 

[chaedwards]

Galciv 2 does cheat on higher difficulty levels, but unlike the CIVs, that's not the only way that difficulty levels are determined. It first starts switching on extra algorithms and observations, and then once they're all on, starts cheating. Can't remember when it starts cheating, but it should be on the website.

 

[serch]

Computers make good chess players, I think. Perhaps you should try it.

 

[Falcore19]

One AI that surprised me was Titans of Steel (the recent one), considering the complexity of the battle system. It does it's job and it's not that easy to trick, but I think it's more due to solid game design rather than formidable AI.

It's incredibly hard to program a good AI for a turn based game. You shouldn't look for one, there are very very few. Creating AI is a game by itself. Rts games have generally better AI, but as Metalix said, nothing can beat the human mind so far. If you want challenge in any kind of games, find people to play with. It's a total different level. Don't waste your time against the computer.

 

[Jason]

Galciv 2 does cheat on higher difficulty levels, but unlike the CIVs, that's not the only way that difficulty levels are determined. It first starts switching on extra algorithms and observations, and then once they're all on, starts cheating. Can't remember when it starts cheating, but it should be on the website.

The game starts cheating above the 'Tough' level by giving the enemy free resources.

 

[chaedwards]

Computers make good chess players, I think. Perhaps you should try it.

Interestingly, though, they're terrible at Go - the sheer number of moves available means they can't just use raw computing power to look a large number of moves into the future.

 

[Avé]

No-one said anything about Total Annihilation and it's good by default AI, but custom non-cheating AI's that cant be fucking beat?

 

[kingcomrade]

Total Annihilation's good default AI? Are you kidding me? TA's "stock" AI is utterly terrible. Even on hard it's a pushover.

 

[AZ]

Rome: Total War, with the Total Realism mod - I stopped playing it because the uber stupid ai. For example - the turn based ai does not use ships for transport at all. The combat ai does not keep army formations, suicide generals, route early.

Titans of Steel - looks good, is there any demo or shareware version?

 

[RuySan]

the Barbarian Invasion expansion improves the AI, as i recall

 

[AZ]

Not really, enemy unist forget to trow javelins, more suicide generals, and Total Realism doesn't support it.

 

[Norfleet]

No-one said anything about Total Annihilation and it's good by default AI, but custom non-cheating AI's that cant be fucking beat?

The default AI in TA has been compared to a lobotomized chicken. If you think that's good, you must be really bad.

Not really, enemy unist forget to trow javelins, more suicide generals, and Total Realism doesn't support it.

I'm not sure enemy units not throwing javelins is something that they "forget". Plenty of times it just simply doesn't happen to be convenient to do, due to line-of-fire issues, or if the enemy hits too quickly. I've always found javelin-throwing works better when your opponent A: Is not already firing at you with something, and B: Displays a marked hesitation in closing for battle. If your opponent is already shooting at you, or has no qualms about closing to do battle at a rapid rate, your units don't tend to get time to setup to throw their javelins.

 

[Atrokkus]

Any RTS AI is a cheating retard.

 

[Avé]

No-one said anything about Total Annihilation and it's good by default AI, but custom non-cheating AI's that cant be fucking beat?

The default AI in TA has been compared to a lobotomized chicken. If you think that's good, you must be really bad.

Meh, try it on hardest and say that

Or compare it to starcraft/red alert/etc

I just installed RA2 yesterday, while it's fun it hasnt aged nearly as well as TA, and it shows :/

 

[AlanC9]

Interestingly, though, they're terrible at Go - the sheer number of moves available means they can't just use raw computing power to look a large number of moves into the future.

The problem is, strategy computer games tend to be a lot more like Go than chess. One reason the Imperialism games had relatively good AI is that the Imperialism combat game was relatively simple. Lots simpler than, say, HoI2.

You want lots of features and complexity, you can have them. But the more stuff you add, the harder it is to program the AI.