Is there any hope?

[Goliath]

Is there any hope, any future for turn-based CRPGs? Everytime I read a new announcement it goes "Aection-RPG", "ueber-leet grafx!", "no stupid stats you don't understand anyway + 3D first-person view = teh immerhsun!".
I think ToEE was the last game of its kind. The professional gaming companies will never make another turn-based CRPG
I used to have some hope when ToEE came out. The game was much too short and buggy but the turn-based combat was the best I have ever experienced and I'm playing CRPGs since the 1980s. I was really looking forward to ToEE sequels based on the same engine but with bigger worlds, less bugs, etc. But then Troika went out of business..

Consoles are becoming more dominant by the hour to the point where it makes no sense at all to develop a PC-only title (if you care primarly about money i.e. like all big companies). And making a turn-based RPG for the XBOX etc. is even more insane than making one for the PC (from a business point of view).
It's sad but I think an era has come to an end.
To me that means I'll save a lot of money 'cause I don't even own a console nor do I plan to ever buy one and I totally dislike action games.
Some people point to indy developers but their stuff doesn't do it for me. It's hard to point the finger at something concrete but the stuff from Spiderweb etc. doesn't even come close to the professional classics (Realms of Arkania, Fallout, Arcanum, SSI Gold Box games, Krondor etc.).

So what's the point of this moaning? Well, I hope someone can up with convincing arguments that proof that there's still a future for professional turn-based CRPGs..

 

[truekaiser]

you won't find any comercail rpg's to fill the void.
but i take it from your avatar you know about nethack and it's many clones?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Spiderweb. I think they have the games you're looking for.

 

[Goliath]

you won't find any comercail rpg's to fill the void.
but i take it from your avatar you know about nethack and it's many clones?

Actually I'm developing a roguelike myself but roguelikes aren't RPGs you know.

 

[Goliath]

Spiderweb. I think they have the games you're looking for.

It seems that you've missed the following part of my post:

Some people point to indy developers but their stuff doesn't do it for me. It's hard to point the finger at something concrete but the stuff from Spiderweb etc. doesn't even come close to the professional classics (Realms of Arkania, Fallout, Arcanum, SSI Gold Box games, Krondor etc.).

 

[bryce777]

Well, I am hoping that the independent games will increase in quality with time as fewer and fewer commercial games are out there. At least the interweb makes it easier to market and sell them. Also, a game maybe 10k people will ever play at most is much less likely to be hacked. It is not hard at all to hack stuff and takes no real brains or programming knowledge compared to actually making stuff, but hackers are not the kind of people who are interested in obscure stuff because they want to feel elite as if they are somehow speshul.

 

[truekaiser]

you won't find any comercail rpg's to fill the void.
but i take it from your avatar you know about nethack and it's many clones?

Actually I'm developing a roguelike myself but roguelikes aren't RPGs you know.

they are still more fun then some profesional rpgs though.

 

[Kthan75]

I think ToEE was the last game of its kind. The professional gaming companies will never make another turn-based CRPG

Yep, unfortunately, this might be true. Unless Bethesda decides to make a turn-based Fallout 3 (call me idealistic but hope dies last...)

 

[Tintin]

Good riddance!





























..... I just said that cause I knew you would all explode

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Spiderweb. I think they have the games you're looking for.

It seems that you've missed the following part of my post:

Some people point to indy developers but their stuff doesn't do it for me. It's hard to point the finger at something concrete but the stuff from Spiderweb etc. doesn't even come close to the professional classics (Realms of Arkania, Fallout, Arcanum, SSI Gold Box games, Krondor etc.).

Maybe I should read before posting next time.

 

[voodoo1man]

Well, I am hoping that the independent games will increase in quality with time as fewer and fewer commercial games are out there. At least the interweb makes it easier to market and sell them. Also, a game maybe 10k people will ever play at most is much less likely to be hacked. It is not hard at all to hack stuff and takes no real brains or programming knowledge compared to actually making stuff, but hackers are not the kind of people who are interested in obscure stuff because they want to feel elite as if they are somehow speshul.

Well, most of Spiderweb's games have cracks for them out there (how do I know? friends - I am ashamed to admit that so far I have avoided playing any of Spiderweb's games, but if I did I would pay for them). I think there are enough crackers that have too much time on their hands to make sure that anything worth cracking (and a lot of things not) will get cracked, eventually.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Actually I'm developing a roguelike myself but roguelikes aren't RPGs you know.

Yes, they are.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Consoles are becoming more dominant by the hour to the point where it makes no sense at all to develop a PC-only title (if you care primarly about money i.e. like all big companies). And making a turn-based RPG for the XBOX etc. is even more insane than making one for the PC (from a business point of view).

Actually there are a number of tb rpgs on consoles, well at least on the Playstation. In fact the majority of rpgs on the PS2 are turnbased. Japanese rpgs are almost always tb and before someone hurts something I am not talking about Final Fantasy. The Shen Megami Tensai games are quite good, if a bit heavy on the combat. Digital Devil Saga is one of the better rpgs I have played in some time with quite a cool story and certainly a rich mythology. Also Nocturne in the SMT series is damn cool.

edit: cuz me no smart

Agree tho about ToEE. I was really hoping for a sequel to Arcanum using the ToEE engine. Christ if they could have married what was good about those two games into one (everything in Arcanum but combat, nothing from ToEE but combat)...sigh.

I love the Spiderweb games, but combat has never been their strong point. At this point the game I am most anticipating to scratch the crpg itch tb combat and all is AoD.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes, TB combat is so popular amongst Japanese that they have their own Wizardry games on the PS1 and 2 which are made for the local market only. There were even versions of old Wizardrys, complete with Apple graphics, put out for the PS2 over there!

I wonder if an old-school Western RPG would do better as a Japanese console version than anywhere else.

The console gaming market there seems so much more diverse - despite us only seeing the traditional cliched FF type stuff...

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Actually I'm developing a roguelike myself but roguelikes aren't RPGs you know.

Yes, they are.

I strongly second that. Gearhead is a rougelike and it's one of the best RPGs I've personally played.

 

[Elwro]

I think that fashion has to evolve. Sometime in future making turn-based games will suddenly become trendy. There will be new big companies taking credit for "innovative turn based combat" etc and most of the people won't remember that turn based games existed before.

 

[Balor]

Well, I'd second the Tintin's "Good riddance" post about TB. :D
Why?
A properly made RTwP gives you all the control of TB, and all the features of RT (well, aside 'actiony' feeling, but not that we really need it, right?).
Give my SPM from E5 over TB any day.
I know VD will eat me alive, but, as it turned out, likes TB just because it TB, not because (or, not only because) it gives you more control over the combat.
You may see that in Bear's Pit E5 was met with same prejudice (I mean, "WTF? RT Ja2 clone?")... but as soon as people actually begun to play it, they went "Hey! It does work!".
And it is.
A great lot of things is simply imposible to properly implement in TB. Not to mention having to wait for 'enemy turn' and so on. (I know it's a minor annoyance, but it does add insult to injury).
Of course, I understand people that prefer 'chess-like' combat to combat that is realistic in feel.
But it's just a matter of personal taste.
But if you just want to have a tactics that is deep, challenging, and easy to control... SPM does all what TB does and much more.
Well, ok, not good riddance...
It's like: "Farewell, you served us well, but now we have what's better in all respects".
...
However, if you mean games that have to tactics at all, only RT-based twitchy combat, I agree it sucks.
I do like to play some action games sometimes, but more often then not I'd like to play a game that engages my mind, not puts it to sleep.
Yet TB is not the only way to implement tactical combat.

About RPGs vs l33t grafix...
Well, just let until this 'arms race' will end at the obvious stalemate.
I mean when the quality of graphics and sound will become so good that you can very hardly (and definitely not very perceivable) improve it.
While it must have sounded rather far-fetched 10 or so years ago, right now it's visible that this process is already nearing an end.
And, after that, not just indy game developers, but big game companies will HAVE to innovate, put more efforts into gameplay, etc - just make their games stand out so they'll sell.
So, unless we'll all die in a big war for resources or get reduced to gray goo by nanobots on rampage - I have rather optimistic view of the future.
I can wait 5 or so years.
Heck, have good chances of living to the singularity while still being a middle-aged (well, relatively, but anyway) man, and there is no way we can predict what will happen after it. If it will happen at all, but logic tells us that it will indeed happen.

 

[Barbader]

Spiderweb. I think HE have the games you're looking for.

Agreed. One year ago i logged in this forum with the same premise that copx explains...Someone of the people in the Codex suggest me to try Spiderweb games. Then i installed Avernum... Five minutes after load the game i disinstalled it.
Copx, since five days ago i can say that i was mistaken. Only get Avernum 3 and play forty minutes, you don´t regret it. And is the kind of game that gets bigger according you advance... i wonder that happens if would more that one people involved in this proyect.




one more time sorry for my english...

 

[Goliath]

What is SPM? What the hell is E5?

P.S.: Real-time with pause sucks and is certainly no alternative for me.

 

[bryce777]

Realtime combat is complete cheese, and the 'tactics' you use to win are nothing like what you would in real life and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themself or simply an idiot. Muttonheads just can't seem to get around the abstract nature of turn based combat - yeah, it is unrealistic when taken at an absolutely literal level, but when taken as strategy then it makes much, much, much more sense then moving your guys into range for one shot, moving them all out to reload etc. etc. etc.



I agree the spiderweb stuff somehow lacks something,a nd I think the problem is it's too formulaic. There is a thief path, combat path, talking path for pretty much everything in geneforge, and the combat is just very poor and ill thought out, which is not so good since there is tons of it.

I'm sad to hear about the cracking thing.

 

[Balor]

Simple RTwP indeed suck. Just RT is also suck, of course.

SPM (stands for Smart Pause Mode) well, see here:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6169

And here:
Thread on Bear's pit (long!)
There is an other thread on E5 there. Notice the change in disposition.

And perhaps here:
Gamespot preview

 

[roguefrog]

Obsidian could possible make a turn-based RPG per Feargus' mention of "smaller projects" in the future. I wouldn't count on it though. Bioware has never done turn-based combat, and probably never will. Not too familar with the eastern-european dev houses.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A properly made RTwP gives you all the control of TB, and all the features of RT

Jack of all trades is still master of none. Simple logic. You have two opposites: RT and TB, each has its own strengthsand weaknesses (depends on the point of view though). Any hybrid system that attempts to feature the strengths of both without the weaknesses is doomed to fail.

I know VD will eat me alive...

I prefer TB, you like RT. Why would I care?

... but, as it turned out, likes TB just because it TB, not because (or, not only because) it gives you more control over the combat.

If that's what you've learned from that discussion, your reading comprehension is very flawed.

A great lot of things is simply imposible to properly implement in TB.

True. Same applies to RT.

Of course, I understand people that prefer 'chess-like' combat to combat that is realistic in feel.

lol

It's like: "Farewell, you served us well, but now we have what's better in all respects".

More like now we have something that works great for Balor.

 

[Barbader]

"A properly made RTwP gives you all the control of TB, and all the features of RT"
Not true. The turn-based mode is insuperable by any RT SRT Or whoever in possibilities and the range of options in a tactical game.. Simply, if only you and play(the necessary time) and compare all tactical games ever made, you only can reach to ane conclusion. Turn based is smarter and better...

 

[Balor]

*shrugs*
I'm still waiting you to play the demo of E5 and points at the flaws of it, instead of saying 'SPM suck because it's RTwP, and RTwP suck, period".
Since when Codex became something alike to TES forums when it comes to reasoning?
Only with TB instead of Bethesda?

Damn, TB is DUMBED-DOWN RT.
Dumbed down to be more playable, of course, but still dumbed down. In many ways.
And when someone implements a system where you can have same playablility without dumbing down the possibilities of RT - you rise a cry that it sucks. Without even seeing it.
Well, welcome to the ranks of "Dumbing down rulez!" crowd. I hope you feel at home.