Ishar trilogy

[Relien]

This is probably one of the prettiest first-person 2D RPGs and definitely one of those games that gave me reasons to hate the early 3D titles.

So I decided to replay those, or rather play them properly and actually finish them this time. I got them from The Underdogs, even with manuals. However, there's one thing that makes me wonder - the manual spends several pages describing the completely intuitive and self-explanatory interface, while it only says the following regarding the character system:

...Characteristics and skills influence the player's actions (e.g. a strong person will cause the enemy more damage, a robust person will withstand blows better).

These parameters develop in the course of the game in relation to fights, successes and set-backs. There are seven skills: lock-picking, perception, first aid, shooting, weaponry skills (one-handed, two-handed, throwing).

Ridiculous. Just compare it to an exhaustive description like e.g. the one in Wizardry 7 manual.

So, some questions/guesses:

• Lock-picking: Is this a useful skill? I don't recall seeing many locks in the game.
• Perception: Again, is it useful or does it just provide flavor text once in a while, like "This swamp sure does stink!" ?
• First aid: Well, the amount of Vitality healed.
• Shooting & weapons: Only attack rate, right?
  
• Strength: Melee damage bonus?
• Constitution: Vitality per level, maybe some resistances?
• Agility: Ranged damage bonus? Armor class perhaps?
• Intelligence: Wizard spell effectivity/availability?
• Wisdom: Priest spell effectivity/availability?

Please confirm/add anything you know.

Also, so far I didn't notice any improvement in any of the stats over time except Vitality (Hit Points), is the manual lying? And while I'm at it, how do you gain any new spells?

Then there's this problem in Ishar 3 in shops - when you mouse over an item you'd like to buy, instead of any information there's just an empty parchment displaying over your character portraits. I don't remember this issue when I was playing it ages ago, but perhaps I had a different version of the game back then.

Ok, that'll be enough data mining for now. Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[Binary]

I have a strange fascination with the Ishar series - even though I once called Ishar 2 the worst RPG ever. I'm afraid I never played enough of the entire trilogy to help you on your questions, but here are some things I seem to recall from Ishar 2:

spell availability doesn't seem to depend on int/wis, some chars just seem to have certain spells.

lockpicking is useful in cities but marginally useful. don't remember any "killer" use throughout the game (but then the game is plagued with death-traps)

On a sidenote, if you can, I recommend playing this game on an Amiga 1200 or an Atari Falcon.

 

[Relien]

Good, every bit of info helps here, thanks.

I'm a little drunk at the moment and not really in the mood to test it, but I think INT/WIS could affect the psychic energy consumption for the spells. I'll check it tomorrow (or the day after that).

How bad are the death traps? Should I expect the need to reload a week old save or will it be apparent as soon as I do something wrong?

And about the Amiga/Atari version - how different it is compared to the PC version? If it's better overall (I guess so since you recommend it), could you recommend a good/reliable emulator?

 

[Caveman]

I would love to play Ishar series but Ive heard these games are very buggy. Is it true?

 

[Relien]

Well, during my limited experience with those games I already encountered two non-trivial bugs - the one in Ishar 3 I wrote about above (missing item info in shops) and one in Ishar 2 where one of the recruitable characters (Kyriela is her name I think) has all skills equal to zero.

 

[made]

Some of the most atmospheric RPGs ever. Must be that certain french charm.

It's been ages since I played them and that was with walkthroughs. I've always meant to replay them proper but never got around to it.

Spells are gained automatically on level up iirc. Different classes get different selections of spells, but seemingly there are some spells unique to certain NPCs. For example, one witch in Ishar 1 has a specific spell that you need to face a certain foe.

It's worth to note that you don't have to min/max your stats to be able to stand a chance. The games' difficulty doesn't really stem from combat. It's much more important to build a party that gets along well, without backstabbing eachother or leaving in the middle of nowhere. I usually went with a party of all "evil" NPCs like dark knights and lizardmen because they look cool. The lizardmen are also some of the best fighters iirc.

You'll probably want to google some info, I'm sure someone out there has a fansite explaining the mechanics. And make sure to save often as it's possible to fuck up on various occasions and get stuck without realizing it.

PS:
http://www.winuae.net/
http://www.whdload.de/
http://www.lemonamiga.com/
http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/search.php?s=ishar

 

[FrancoTAU]

I never knew these games even existed until I found them on Underdogs a couple years back. I still haven't gotten around to them.

Are they worth playing to a guy who grew up DOS games?

 

[Sir_Brennus]

I never knew these games even existed until I found them on Underdogs a couple years back. I still haven't gotten around to them.

Are they worth playing to a guy who grew up DOS games?

Considering how hard the competition in the Dungeon-Master-clones sector is, I'd say: No, it isn't.

All three games have some naggy problems, that are different in each iteration but spoil the fun whatsoever.

I think pt.2 is the worst of the bunch, but even the rest isn't good compared to minor efforts like Abandoned Places, which refreshingly doesn't take itself so serious like the Ishars. The games surely suck compared to the AAA of the genre.

I think the whole series went into the wrong direction after Ishar Zero (aka Crystals of Arborea), which featured a tactical combat system, instead of the Dungeon Master clickfest. Think the GBA version of Eye of the Beholder.

The art direction of pt1. and the grafics of pt.3 were not half bad, but does not carry you through so many hours of playing.

 

[Zakhal]

I never knew these games even existed until I found them on Underdogs a couple years back. I still haven't gotten around to them.

Are they worth playing to a guy who grew up DOS games?

Ishar games were bad-mediocre rpsg when they were originally released. They are not classics and I dont think they hold much of historical game value either. The graphics are kind of unique but everything else stinks. Just read som reviews from the early 90s and you see how mediocre-bad the series was then allready. Its like a macd burger left to rot on the sun for a decade.

I would not suggest wasting time on them - so many better games / real classics out there.

 

[Elwro]

Is this the series in which you have to pay every time you save?

 

[Binary]

How bad are the death traps? Should I expect the need to reload a week old save or will it be apparent as soon as I do something wrong?

Bad. Real bad. They're of the "if you didn't pick item X in zone Y when you were there for the first time you're screwed" variety. I'd consider either following a script or getting some sort of save editor that you can use to put certain quest items in your inventory if you miss them (not sure if such an editor exists for the Ishar series.

Ishar 3 also has a time limit I believe

And about the Amiga/Atari version - how different it is compared to the PC version? If it's better overall (I guess so since you recommend it), could you recommend a good/reliable emulator?

I wouldn't recommend an emulator. In that case you're better off playing on the PC. It's just that Ishar 1, was, if memory serves me right, a "poster game" for both AGA graphics on the Amiga, and the fantastic Atari sound on the Falcon.

I would love to play Ishar series but Ive heard these games are very buggy. Is it true?

Nope, they're not buggy at all.

It's much more important to build a party that gets along well, without backstabbing eachother or leaving in the middle of nowhere.

This is important but also nearly impossible. I played Ishar 2 to the last dungeon and managed to keep one guy (a Ranger) all the way to his level 21 or something. All the rest kept leaving, backstabbing others, etc. Some guys will leave no matter how well you treat them. Dark Knights are cool yes but their allegiance is 0 so, IIRC, not the most reliable

I think pt.2 is the worst of the bunch, but even the rest isn't good compared to minor efforts like Abandoned Places, which refreshingly doesn't take itself so serious like the Ishars. The games surely suck compared to the AAA of the genre.

There is some charm in these games, in particular in all the outdoor areas - Ishar 1 and 2 are better in this than the general "wtfness" of Ishar 3

They're worth giving a go - in the very least, for the unusual party system

Is this the series in which you have to pay every time you save?

No?

 

[Elwro]

OK, I did some digging concerning Ishar 1:

You actually have to pay 1,000 gold coins if you want to save your game, which isn't cheap at all, so bear that in mind while you're playing the game.

From http://home.flash.net/~rayearle/Ifiles/IsharI.html .

 

[Binary]

OK, I did some digging concerning Ishar 1:

You actually have to pay 1,000 gold coins if you want to save your game, which isn't cheap at all, so bear that in mind while you're playing the game.

From http://home.flash.net/~rayearle/Ifiles/IsharI.html .

Whoa that's a detail I definitely don't remember, but I played Ishar 1 AGA version, so not sure that was different

Will boot it in DOSBox in a second and check

 

[mondblut]

Wonderful graphics and cool outdoors/cities (as opposed to dungeons/dungeons with forest-like walls prevalent in subgenre). Never understood its gamemechanics either. And crappy combat, of course.

Enemies are very likely scaled. I do remember being able to endure a set amount of bandit fights w/o resting no matter the level.

But it is indeed a game with graphics to behold. Art department did amazing job considering it's just a grid-based game with flat walls.

 

[Binary]

Gah the mouse in Ishar 1 doesn't seem to work properly in DOSBox 0.72... it "confines" itself to a rectangle on top of the screen

 

[uhu]

A 'living' Ishar forum! I'm happy!

Ishar is my "first love" from RPGs. Played on Atari ST, played on PC wit WinUAE, and now playing again on Amiga 1200. Is is recommended to play the Ishar series on Amiga 1200, or on PC, with WinUAE emulator. It has much more visual, than the pixelfull VGA look.

I will write a complete Ishar 1 walktrough soon: the ones, which are on the net are very primitive: they give false hints, and speeks not about many things, which are essential to the succesful endind.

Now, to your questions:
Yes, I was also afraid, that the manual tells nothing, about the skills, and attributes.
Lockpicking is useful to open doors, but not for every door - it is not useful, because only thiefs have this skill on high level, but no other attributes, or skills of them are used from the game, and you can find all the keys, so it is more useful to hire other type of charakters. I recommend 1 paladin (knight-errant), 1 fighter or ranger, 1 wizard, 1 priest, 1 cleric (scolar). Otherway, there are situations in all 3 episodes, where you must kick out one, or two of your charakters, because, you must hire specific persons, so if you want transfer your charakters from Ishar 1 to 2, or from 2 to 3, "favorite" only 3 charakters.
The other skills: shooting can be useful, when you use a bow.

The attributes:
"Strength: Melee damage bonus?" - Right.
"Constitution: Vitality per level, maybe some resistances?" Right. But I think, resistance is more for Agility.
"Intelligence: Wizard spell effectivity/availability?" - Haven't seen any difference between a lower, and a higher intelligence valued wizard...
"Wisdom: Priest spell effectivity/availability?" - Haven't seen any difference between a lower, and a higher intelligence valued priest...

"Also, so far I didn't notice any improvement in any of the stats over time except Vitality (Hit Points), is the manual lying? And while I'm at it, how do you gain any new spells"

In the first Ishar you can go to schools, where - if you have money, and luck - you can improve your attributes. I think, it's a little "cheater like", so I didn't use them anymore. Also, in the first episode, you must learn the spells in magic scools - from the second Ishar, you have them with level improving.

There are only minor bugs in the Ishar series.

 

[uhu]

general

Yes, the fighting system of Ishar is not very complex. True. But this game has such a wonderful graphics, and atmosphere, that even, after 16 years of the release it's still very enjoyable!! And that is not only my opinion.
It's a type of RPG. If I want to play more complex RPGs, with deeper fighting-, and charakter-improving system, than I choose Amberstar, Ambermoon, or Fate (the last one will be played only in the future ).

 

[Erebus]

I strongly dislike the Ishar games (haven't played the third one). The stories are so limited they make Diablo looks like Planescape : Torment ! The conclusion of the first game is, shall we say, ridiculous (we get to see a guy holding a sword, surrounded by columns... that's it !). The second game was so buggy I gave up fairly quickly.

The psychology system is extremely bad. Among many absurdities, teammates who don't get along sometimes decide to fight each other even all of the team is being attacked by enemies at the same time !!!.

 

[uhu]

I strongly dislike the Ishar games (haven't played the third one). The stories are so limited they make Diablo looks like Planescape : Torment ! The conclusion of the first game is, shall we say, ridiculous (we get to see a guy holding a sword, surrounded by columns... that's it !). The second game was so buggy I gave up fairly quickly.[/i].

What has the ending with the story? In that time, games many times ended only with a picture, for that, Ishar 1 end's is fairly developed.
Maybe the PC version of Ishar 2 is buggy - the Amiga version isn't.

The psychology system is extremely bad. Among many absurdities, teammates who don't get along sometimes decide to fight each other even all of the team is being attacked by enemies at the same time !!!.

That is, because your charakters are cursed... You must drink a special potion, to remove it, or heal with an anti-confusion spell (depends from situation).

 

[Relien]

Wow, an Ishar expert! Thanks for the answers, uhu.

 

[uhu]

Wow, an Ishar expert! Thanks for the answers, uhu.

You are welcome.
I'm also happy, that there are still people, who play this wonderful game - not only I .

 

[Erebus]

What has the ending with the story?

I enjoy at least getting an idea of what my efforts have achieved. The ending of "Cristals of Arborea" (the game before Ishar) was just as short but at least you got to see the sunken continent emerge from the sea !

And when I say the story is awful, it's because saying "There's a bad guy, go kill him." is not summarizing the plot, it is all of the plot ! You know nothing about the villain (except that he is the son of CoA's villain), nothing about his plots or ambitions, you barely even know what he's doing that deserves killing !

 

[made]

Err, a paper thin plot was standart for hack&slash RPGs of that time. I don't remember EOB or DM having a deeper storyline than what you find here.

You have to enjoy the games for what they are. Outstanding graphics/atmosphere, mediocre gameplay.

 

[mondblut]

That is, because your charakters are cursed... You must drink a special potion, to remove it, or heal with an anti-confusion spell (depends from situation).

It ruined many of my games as well. An jin/jang symbol in character data, right?

 

[Seboss]

I'd rather check out the other Silmarils games like Transarctica and Storm Master instead of Ishar.
Well, they are not RPGs but are the best games that studio came up with.