1eyedking Japanese roleplaying games are...

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

JRPG's are thrill rides. They are about seeing what comes next. If that's not exciting or if it flows badly (i.e. lots of random encounters and other filler stuff, which is almost all JRPG's I have seen.), the game is bad. An example of a good JRPG would be Paper Mario : The Thousand Year Door. I was consistently interested what weird stuff I would see next. Solid, witty writing, pretty unique style and good flow - things half of western RPG's don't do as well. It's very easy, though.

Bad JRPG's would be all before Chrono Trigger and most of them after it. They generally give you a headache from the frustration of playing them and never show you anything you haven't seen before a thousand times before.

Hairy balls of the gods I remember the headaches. FF8 with it's various forms of grinding (XP, AP, items, Triple Triad cards, spells...) and those several really horrible mazes and dungeons which were fucking long and would have a random encounter every few seconds. Or that horrible game on the Dreamcast... Well, whatever it's name was. It had characters named after weapons, was only about really horrible dungeon crawling and I can remember getting physically sick when trying to play it, despite really wanting to play something with the damn console. Perhaps I remember N64 so fondly because it didn't have almost any JRPG's.

 

[obediah]

jrpgs have as much claim to the rpg name as their various western counterparts. A lot of neo-fundamentalists that believe fallout was the first rpg would disagree, but fuck them. PnP RPGs are composed of many pillars - C&C, the story, stat progression, lewt hoarding, team-work, and play-acting (sorry if I missed any), and different games/groups give them different focus. Developers can cobble any of these together and have an rpg.

Back in the day, I found jrpgs inferior to western rpgs, but still entertaining. Of course back then, western rpgs were mostly party simulators that moved at a snails pace and made you control ( CONTROL - not lasso and watch) 6 or even 8 characters ( zomg - brain rape!!!!1111! ).

Over time western rpgs shifted their focus from party management to character development, and tb to rt, and the hybrids of today. During that same period of time, jrpgs went from 4 member parties to 3 member parties - and thats about it. Lot's of little experiments, and such, but I can still buy a new jprg today that plays just like the sega master system games of 20 years ago.

In summary, jrpgs aren't much if any better than they were 20 years ago. Western rpgs are a wasteland of 1-2 love/hate hybrids a year, 3-4 hate/hate hybrids a year, and 0-2 meh indies that at best play like a 10 year old game in a 15 year old engine. I have no idea which I prefer at this point.

 

[poocolator]

I fucking hate anime characters. I fucking hate all those goddamned threads on the *chans depicting anime characters getting it on. Waste of space, IMO. How about some REAL damned pussy or something. I don't understand how a bunch of badly-drawn, super-colorful, disproportionate characters can even begin to be considered "HOT." Western artists to it so much better. Hell, they even got the muscle groups down! Gasp! Or do the Japanese have a different physiology than the rest of the world?

JRPG stories are trash. 'nuff said.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Obediah, look at the experiences that Western RPGs are still bringing to us, even in recent years.

Yeah, there's couple of bad stuff, but all in all, there's so much cool stuff that the genre is bringing to the table. Atleast, Western RPGs are innovating, even if many of those innovations don't impress or turn off people, like SoZ did.

You don't think there's more hope for this genre?

 

[Lingwe]

I don't understand how a bunch of badly-drawn, super-colorful, disproportionate characters can even begin to be considered "HOT."

They aren't badly drawn. Anime/manga characters are drawn much better than western animated characters.

 

[Hory]

"Better" meaning what?

 

[LeStryfe79]

I'm willing to bet that a lot of modern wrpg devs played the hell out of early jrpgs.
I'm also willing to bet that many early jrpg devs played the hell out of early wrpgs.
The circle goes round and round...

Many people not into manga have the incorrect belief that all of their artwork looks like Dragonball. There are a much wider variety of styles among popular Japanese artists than western ones. When I was 10 I learned to draw by mimicking various artists at Marvel. Eventually I became disillusioned with the NA comic book industry, and what I found was that most western art gravitates toward photorealism. I don't care about photorealistic art because it can never rise above reality. I can hardly call most western creations "art" because it only mimics reality. This is nothing more than glorified tracing. It may take work to get good at it, but so does making a sandwich at Subway.

 

[mondblut]

Obediah, look at the experiences that Western RPGs are still bringing to us, even in recent years.

2 is Echalon, 6 is PtD and 5 must be MOTB, what are the rest? Either I am clearly out of mainstream games, or they all look the same

 

[Wyrmlord]

Prelude to Darkness and Sacred 2. The latter is an action RPG, not to your taste.

 

[JarlFrank]

I don't understand how a bunch of badly-drawn, super-colorful, disproportionate characters can even begin to be considered "HOT."

They aren't badly drawn. Anime/manga characters are drawn much better than western animated characters.

So this is drawn and animated much better than this or this?

Yeah right.

 

[mondblut]

Prelude to Darkness and Sacred 2. The latter is an action RPG, not to your taste.

What is 4? I guess 3 is some NWN2 product too, since it looks like 5. I recognized PtD, yes.

 

[Wyrmlord]

3, 4, and 5 are all MotB.

 

[Chateaubryan]

I'm willing to bet that a lot of modern wrpg devs played the hell out of early jrpgs.
I'm also willing to bet that many early jrpg devs played the hell out of early wrpgs.
The circle goes round and round...

I agree. Both Jrpg and Wrpg counts (few) good and (many) bad games. To say that Jrpg are all equally as bad, and that the redemption of the genre is up to the Western's is nothing more than chauvinism.

Funny Fact :

The ending credits of Planescape : Torment mentions Final Fantasy VII & VIII as sources of inspiration.

 

[Ebonsword]

I tend to like a good JRPG now and again.

For example, I thought that Persona 3 FES was extremely fun, with a fairly complex combat system and an extremely complex character customization system (well, you're really customizing the demons your character uses, but close enough).

Also, (as I've mentioned elsewhere) I think that strategy RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics, La Pucelle Tactics, and Disgaea are quite fun, with interesting (if utterly unrealistic) tactical combat systems.

That being said, I think that it's pretty hard to compare something like KOTOR to a JRPG like Persona 3. They're just developed very differently. Western RPGs (especially Bioware ones) seem designed for multiple playthroughs using different character classes and different alignments. JRPGS, on the other hand, seem to be designed more for a single playthrough where the player can encounter everything that the game has to offer.

I don't think that the design of JRPGs is necessarily a weakness, since that single playthrough can be very entertaining, and at least they're honest about not giving you a choice in how things progress unlike some of the Western RPGs that just give you the illusion of choice (i.e. multiple dialogue options which lead to the same outcome).

Of course, I really like anime and find Japanese pop culture kind of fascinating. I can see where if you hate that aesthetic it would be hard to enjoy a JRPG.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Shut Up And Jam Gaiden is a masterpiece.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Fuckin' A

 

[Wyrmlord]

"Shanananana, get a job!"

Also, Michael Jordan as the evil inspector who betrayed basketball and went on to arrest his own kin - a Darth Vader, if you will.

It's genius.

 

[mondblut]

I agree. Both Jrpg and Wrpg counts (few) good and (many) bad games.

Thing is, as far as I am concerned, even the worst bad CRPGs are infinitely more appealing than the any best JPG ever. I'd rather play Bard's Tale or Daemonsgate or Dungeon Hack or Descent to Undermountain or whatever than any FF, Chronotrigger, Phantasy star etc etc etc. They might have utterly generic settings, mediocre rulesets and myriads of bugs, but they are still the kind of the games I like. Unlike JPG crap.

To say that Jrpg are all equally as bad

I am certain many are worse than bad, but even the best are laughing stock.

and that the redemption of the genre is up to the Western's

For CRPG genre, of course it is up to the "Western's"! Would you expect any JPG to be a good CRPG by CRPG standarts? It would stop being a JPG in the first place, japs made it or not (but why would japs bother?).

As for redemption of JPG genre, I don't really give a fuck.

is nothing more than chauvinism.

What's wrong with chauvinism?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Yeah, I agree with mondblut here.

The Bard's Tale is a bad game. It has absolutely arbitrary random encounters, that can appear even when you are standing still in one place. It has sheer lack of variety, and not much interesting in it.

And yet, playing it after having played a JRPG, you'd think it's a brilliant game. Far more options in combat. Difficult combat. Larger and more detailed world to explore. Just a lot more complexity in many ways. And so on. It seems like a great game simply on the virtue that it is not a JRPG.

The good thing about Western RPGs is that you are thrown into the fray immediately. In my experience with various JRPGs, they seem to be big on prologues and preliminary situations. Small things, like these, make all the difference for me.

 

[obediah]

Obediah, look at the experiences that Western RPGs are still bringing to us, even in recent years.

Sacred 2 - hate/hate. When the biggest design decision in your genre is clickclickclickclickclick or hhhhhoooollllllddddd, you suck.

Eschalon - nice first effort, but I wasn't engaged. Will check out all future releases.

Prelude to Darkness - love/hate. Brilliant game, but interface and crashes are more frustrating than any jrpg grind, FMV, or 45 minute, 10-stage boss battle. It's over 6 years old, which doesn't count as "recent years".

NWN2 - like/hate - parties are cool, I'm not a fan of 3E feat/class minmax and it's all pointless because combat is a worse travesty than the holocaust. I liked it better when the challenge was combat itself rather than building character for combat.

Yeah, there's couple of bad stuff, but all in all, there's so much cool stuff that the genre is bringing to the table.

I think it's the other way around - the majority of western rpgs today are very bad, with some bright spots. Even the good ones have critical flaws that significantly hamper overall enjoyment. I do absolutely agree with you that the bright spots in western rpgs are orders of magnitude brighter than the bright spots in jrpgs.

Atleast, Western RPGs are innovating, even if many of those innovations don't impress or turn off people, like SoZ did.

I think most of the recent "innovation" in western rpgs is just mainstreaming. Most of the rest is recycling forgotten features from old games - which is fine with me if they are good features. But individual jrpgs do this from time to time. They also innovate in different ways - the dreaded mini-game came from jrpgs.

You don't think there's more hope for this genre?

I'm not sure. There is much more potential, but for every step the industry takes towards realizing it, they take two back. I'll also give you that western rpgs have been much better about poaching ideas from jrpgs than vice-versa (well except for Wizardry).

 

[LeStryfe79]

The JRPG Wizardry (by Atlus) is 2nd only to Wizardry 8 in that series. C&C is the only thing missing from that game, which really isn't Wizardry's strong point anyway. I doubt many people here have played it though. Too bad the sequel didn't come to NA.

I remember the first time I played it. I quit after 15 minutes when you don't initially get to make an entire party. Boy was I glad I gave it a second try! My friends and I still have files of that game saved on our ps2 memory cards just in case we ever wanna delve into the Abyss again. Some games just come together as greater than the sum of their parts, and Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land is one of these.

 

[Lemunde]

There's a disturbing lack of Diablo in this thread...

K...I'll add something constructive later. I'm going to bed...

 

[LeStryfe79]

What's funny is that Diablo2 is one of my 5 favorite games (not just rpgs) of all time. The other 4 just happen to be of Japanese make (Super Mario Bros, Street Fighter2, Metal Gear Solid, and Okami). If this somehow makes my opinions less valid, then so be it!

In terms of "true" RPGs, I liked Ultima 4 best at the time I first played it. Right now I'm hard pressed to make a list of my favorite true rpgs. I would venture to guess, however, that roughly half are Western and half are Japanese.

 

[Applegate's Breasts]

Hey guys check out these Dune covers:

http://www.arrakis.co.uk/books.html

日本語すごくかわいい!!! ^_^

 

[Ebonsword]

The JRPG Wizardry (by Atlus) is 2nd only to Wizardry 8 in that series. C&C is the only thing missing from that game, which really isn't Wizardry's strong point anyway. I doubt many people here have played it though. Too bad the sequel didn't come to NA.

I remember the first time I played it. I quit after 15 minutes when you don't initially get to make an entire party. Boy was I glad I gave it a second try! My friends and I still have files of that game saved on our ps2 memory cards just in case we ever wanna delve into the Abyss again. Some games just come together as greater than the sum of their parts, and Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land is one of these.

I was not aware that this even existed!

It looks cool...but no auto-map? That's a little too old school for my taste.