[King of Dragon Pass] This game actively punishes you for being successful.

[Johannes]

I can't think of a lot of KoDP games, aside from Long Live The Queen or something? But none of them are quite as intense lore wise. Granted that is because KoDP is drawing from Runequest, unlike LLTQ or Academagia. Academagia has semi similar story events but is otherwise pretty dissimilar to KoDP really.

Academagia and Long Live the Queen have nothing to do with KoDP really, they're mostly based on Princess Maker

 

[Axioms]

I can't think of a lot of KoDP games, aside from Long Live The Queen or something? But none of them are quite as intense lore wise. Granted that is because KoDP is drawing from Runequest, unlike LLTQ or Academagia. Academagia has semi similar story events but is otherwise pretty dissimilar to KoDP really.

Academagia and Long Live the Queen have nothing to do with KoDP really, they're mostly based on Princess Maker

Richard mentioned it so I addressed it in my post. Academagia isn't based on PM, though? It is an academy sim not a raising sim.

Academagia does have events that are very similar in style to KoDP, even the hero quests in some ways. But that is basically the only similarity.

 

[Johannes]

I can't think of a lot of KoDP games, aside from Long Live The Queen or something? But none of them are quite as intense lore wise. Granted that is because KoDP is drawing from Runequest, unlike LLTQ or Academagia. Academagia has semi similar story events but is otherwise pretty dissimilar to KoDP really.

Academagia and Long Live the Queen have nothing to do with KoDP really, they're mostly based on Princess Maker

Richard mentioned it so I addressed it in my post. Academagia isn't based on PM, though? It is an academy sim not a raising sim.

Academagia does have events that are very similar in style to KoDP, even the hero quests in some ways. But that is basically the only similarity.

It's about raising a gay wizard, the gameplay is in the same vein. IIRC the events in Academagia aren't random, they reliably trigger on certain dates / conditions

 

[Axioms]

I can't think of a lot of KoDP games, aside from Long Live The Queen or something? But none of them are quite as intense lore wise. Granted that is because KoDP is drawing from Runequest, unlike LLTQ or Academagia. Academagia has semi similar story events but is otherwise pretty dissimilar to KoDP really.

Academagia and Long Live the Queen have nothing to do with KoDP really, they're mostly based on Princess Maker

Richard mentioned it so I addressed it in my post. Academagia isn't based on PM, though? It is an academy sim not a raising sim.

Academagia does have events that are very similar in style to KoDP, even the hero quests in some ways. But that is basically the only similarity.

It's about raising a gay wizard, the gameplay is in the same vein. IIRC the events in Academagia aren't random, they reliably trigger on certain dates / conditions

Well my wizard was probably straight personally, who knows since they're 11.

 

[laclongquan]

Academagia is nearly the same as KODP in term of gameplay. Otherwise the story, the writing, the background, the company are completely different.

If you like gameplay, which is about the only thing in KODP worth noting about, then I strongly recommend Academagia.

If you like KODP story, :meh: then I have nothing to suggest. Because it's not that unique or interesting, really. it's written well and serve KODP gameplay very well, is all.

 

[laclongquan]

Well honestly I am not sure why more indie devs don't try this idea, it looks quite cheap to make and can be very fun and rewarding...

This kind of game require really good writers to make a halfway functional game though. Really good, not the halfassed type you get around indie game scene.
Because it's basically visual novel type of games, with way less images, way more text, way more hidden game engine calculations.
Any less-than-real-good level of writers will get a game killed in development stages.
And that kind of writers in indie scenes are very rare, because they can make more money elsewhere than here.

 

[Silva]

Academagia is nearly the same as KODP in term of gameplay. Otherwise the story, the writing, the background, the company are completely different.

If you like gameplay, which is about the only thing in KODP worth noting about, then I strongly recommend Academagia.

If you like KODP story, :meh: then I have nothing to suggest. Because it's not that unique or interesting, really. it's written well and serve KODP gameplay very well, is all.

Worldbuilding in KoDP is also amazing.

 

[laclongquan]

Academagia is nearly the same as KODP in term of gameplay. Otherwise the story, the writing, the background, the company are completely different.

If you like gameplay, which is about the only thing in KODP worth noting about, then I strongly recommend Academagia.

If you like KODP story, :meh: then I have nothing to suggest. Because it's not that unique or interesting, really. it's written well and serve KODP gameplay very well, is all.

Worldbuilding in KoDP is also amazing.

For a game in the early 90s, yes. But context is everything.

In the early 90s, games are just in early stages of development. Novels also in the early stage of transition into game writings. Thus KoDP made a great impression. and the worldbuilding in KODP can wow the yokels (including me I would point out).

Now such things are all matured quite a bit. So we can look back and judge things with a clear eyes:

Thus, orlanthi world is... what the hell is that? medieval barbarian mix with beast tribes, some old gods. Nicely written, sure, but nowhere near the level of thought provocative like Fallout's retrofuturism (post apocalypse of a future world imagined by the 50s people, as designed by 90s people think how the 50s would imagine).

Nicely written yes. That's not a low judgement as you would think, in context of today's game writing. But not imaginative to wow people. Again, not a low judgement as you would think, because we dont judge creativity as high as (mediocre) game writers would judge.

 

[Silva]

Academagia is nearly the same as KODP in term of gameplay. Otherwise the story, the writing, the background, the company are completely different.

If you like gameplay, which is about the only thing in KODP worth noting about, then I strongly recommend Academagia.

If you like KODP story, :meh: then I have nothing to suggest. Because it's not that unique or interesting, really. it's written well and serve KODP gameplay very well, is all.

Worldbuilding in KoDP is also amazing.

For a game in the early 90s, yes. But context is everything.

In the early 90s, games are just in early stages of development. Novels also in the early stage of transition into game writings. Thus KoDP made a great impression. and the worldbuilding in KODP can wow the yokels (including me I would point out).

Now such things are all matured quite a bit. So we can look back and judge things with a clear eyes:

Thus, orlanthi world is... what the hell is that? medieval barbarian mix with beast tribes, some old gods. Nicely written, sure, but nowhere near the level of thought provocative like Fallout's retrofuturism (post apocalypse of a future world imagined by the 50s people, as designed by 90s people think how the 50s would imagine).

Nicely written yes. That's not a low judgement as you would think, in context of today's game writing. But not imaginative to wow people. Again, not a low judgement as you would think, because we dont judge creativity as high as (mediocre) game writers would judge.

It's not really about writing, though. Glorantha take on superstition and animism resonates real world cultures in a way that's rare for videogames to capture even nowadays and (IMO) makes your average RPG fictional world look like teenager's work.

Fallout is cool too, but it's a different kettle of fish.

 

[laclongquan]

My above posts are all about writings. Specifically the part about worldbuilding~

Let me reiterate:

KODP writings are nicely written and serve gameplay very well. no feeling of overstretch, or artificial, or pretentious. IT's a great level among games nowaday. Not at the level of top 3, but top 20 group. NO small achievement, that.

The creativity part of the writings, which is Glorantha backgrounds, religious stuffs and worldbuilding... all that the KODP writers were, and are, so proud of? THey are nothing special. Just functional~ honestly, if they replace that with Viking/Saxon mysticisms, it will still be the same~

 

[Silva]

I don't care much for that, honestly. The appeal of KoDP for me is forcing the player to enter the mindset of it's fictional culture, acting as a superstitious leader in that context would, to succeed. And I still don't know another game that does that as well as KoDP. Judging if the name of that allfather should be Orlanth or Odin or John Smith is missng the point of the game, IMO.

Edit: I also question your assertion that worldbuulding improved with the times. Ultimas, Planescape and KoDP wipe the floor with most newish games IMO, and they're decades old by now.

 

[laclongquan]

RPG General World Building? Witcher 1 done pretty well on that score.

Hell, just even more recently, Academagia done pretty well. Not just widely written, but complex interwined, with different viewpoints toward a single event/quest (since they can be students from different schools join in a quest with different background so they look at it differently). I dont say which is better simply because the approaches are different (ancient magic vs modern school magic) so comparison is like apple versus pear.

On visual novel scene, Fate Stay Night and Fate Moon series are damn impressive undertaking in point of world building done by Japanese.

And that are all lesser-known Codex tittles. The well known Codex games are such as Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of Betrayer, Alpha Centaury etc... all can boast a comparable level of game writing and worldbuilding~

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

"Academagia has better world-building than King of Dragon Pass" is one helluva stupid assertion, and that's coming from someone who likes Academagia quite a bit.

You're either trolling or suffering from cerebral hypoxia.

 

[laclongquan]

Do you complete at least half of school routes in Academagia? Not just one routes but at least 6 routes?

Academagia present background writings in each school route is bias toward that school philosophy, not just different writings. Thus to have complete (or 3/4 complete) understanding of each event or quest, one route is nowhere near enough.

This is like KODP where you play each strategical way differently. A hero-focus game is different than an artisan-number game is different than territory-focus game is different heroquest-focus game. You dont need to play all 4 to have full writings, but the feel of the game, that can be only be achieved by play all 4.

 

[Axioms]

Do you complete at least half of school routes in Academagia? Not just one routes but at least 6 routes?

Academagia present background writings in each school route is bias toward that school philosophy, not just different writings. Thus to have complete (or 3/4 complete) understanding of each event or quest, one route is nowhere near enough.

This is like KODP where you play each strategical way differently. A hero-focus game is different than an artisan-number game is different than territory-focus game is different heroquest-focus game. You dont need to play all 4 to have full writings, but the feel of the game, that can be only be achieved by play all 4.

New rule, no talk about Academagia till they finish year 2. Fucking 10 years. So GRRM/Rothfuss type shit.

 

[Morality Games]

King of Dragon Pass is not really a CYOA. I'm not sure what it is, but the text vignettes are only part of a large game, and even the vignettes have aspects that to me make them unusual as CYOAs (for instance, the randomness of the outcomes).

I do share the misgiving that there is a disconnect between the player's reasonable goals, the player's reasonable choices, and the resulting outcomes. It is true that some of the game's genius resides in the fact that you cannot just powergame your way through it. But I've still found aspects somewhat frustrating every time I've played.

[EDIT: To clarify, though, I think it's both a really good game (for many reasons) and a unique game that, even if it were not very good, ought to be played for that reason alone. And it was one of several inspirations for Fallen Gods, so I'm beholden to it for that reason, too!]

Honestly, it's a puzzle game more than anything. In order to win you have the figure out how separate signal from noise and put all the of the correct pieces in the right places and order.

 

[Kev Inkline]

My above posts are all about writings. Specifically the part about worldbuilding~

Let me reiterate:

KODP writings are nicely written and serve gameplay very well. no feeling of overstretch, or artificial, or pretentious. IT's a great level among games nowaday. Not at the level of top 3, but top 20 group. NO small achievement, that.

The creativity part of the writings, which is Glorantha backgrounds, religious stuffs and worldbuilding... all that the KODP writers were, and are, so proud of? THey are nothing special. Just functional~ honestly, if they replace that with Viking/Saxon mysticisms, it will still be the same~

To me it seems you have a very superficial knowledge of Glorantha and Stafford's works. Not that I care too much for KoDP, but it's just a minor part of Glorantha, which is quite superior to FR, for example, in my opinion.

Especially the deity, I mean they have Goddess of Rape, that alone should endear the world to the Codex audience.

 

[laclongquan]

The extent of caring about Glorantha is all related to the game's writings. Any shits about tabletop and novels, what is that? Remember it: Glorantha is only of worth thanks to the game.

 

[Kev Inkline]

The extent of caring about Glorantha is all related to the game's writings. Any shits about tabletop and novels, what is that? Remember it: Glorantha is only of worth thanks to the game.

I don't quite understand what you intend to say? It goes the other way around: Glorantha's world was created in the 60s and 70s.
For TT, RuneQuest combat mechanisms are way superior to DnD (except for the magic which is kinda lukewarm).

 

[laclongquan]

Put it another way: I dont give a shit how great Glorantha in tabletop or novels. Didnt play, dont play, wont play. Glorantha is only of relevance here at Codex due to the KODP game, which is the context of this thread~

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

We get it, you prefer Harry Potter fanfic to contextualized, ambiguous world-building. That's cool man.

 

[laclongquan]

Normalfags would not understand it but you are strawmanning. Worse, do it badly~

 

[Replicante]

so I'm playing the game for the first time. I understand that the Steam version is a bit "streamlined" and probably more straightforward. Generally I'm ok with this but there seems to be missing the option to occupy the lands of those clans you SMASH during wars. Here I am with no more wildlands to expand on, clans moving away from me due to the pwnage and still can't seem to get new land. Do you guys have any tips?
Also, should I 100% move away from the Steam version? I read one of the devs saying some bugs were fixed and scenes added, so idk.
Thanks for the feedback

 

[Raghar]

Do you complete at least half of school routes in Academagia? Not just one routes but at least 6 routes?

Academagia present background writings in each school route is bias toward that school philosophy, not just different writings. Thus to have complete (or 3/4 complete) understanding of each event or quest, one route is nowhere near enough.

This is like KODP where you play each strategical way differently. A hero-focus game is different than an artisan-number game is different than territory-focus game is different heroquest-focus game. You dont need to play all 4 to have full writings, but the feel of the game, that can be only be achieved by play all 4.

New rule, no talk about Academagia till they finish year 2. Fucking 10 years. So GRRM/Rothfuss type shit.

What they are not doing one year per half year? They should release it as noncommercial freeware and do it in theirs spare time. They would be faster.

 

[Silva]

so I'm playing the game for the first time. I understand that the Steam version is a bit "streamlined" and probably more straightforward. Generally I'm ok with this but there seems to be missing the option to occupy the lands of those clans you SMASH during wars. Here I am with no more wildlands to expand on, clans moving away from me due to the pwnage and still can't seem to get new land. Do you guys have any tips?
Also, should I 100% move away from the Steam version? I read one of the devs saying some bugs were fixed and scenes added, so idk.
Thanks for the feedback

Steam version is the best one. While it misses the clan screen, it cuts out some needless complexity in farming, while cleaning up some bugs and problems (the original had some noob traps in the form of starving death spirals, and was too strict with Heroquests).

And the game is not an empire builder so you're not supposed to conquer all your neighbours like in a RTS. It's more of iron age tribe simulator. Even as a warlike clan (take Humakt as a god if you go this route) you should avoid annexing lands and just keep raiding neighbours for cattle (and respect) instead. Keep your reputation growing and eventually a quest will come through to form a tribe. In the short game you need to stay 10 years as leader of said tribe to finish, while the long game has an aditional quest to form a kingdom (which is cool at first but boring in subsequent playthroughs, so I recommend doing it once and then play only the short game after that).

GameFaqs has a superb FAQ about it: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/915594-king-of-dragon-pass/faqs/36997