Interview KOTOR 2 wrap report, Part 2

[Volourn]

You are the one who is making it a black and white issue not me.

But, hey, you've been proven wrong and now you are only accepting a certain degree of poverty as real" poverty.

No one is disupting that certain parts of the world have "worse" poverty than other parts. Don't be stupid and suggest otheewise. Of course, it's obvious you've never been Kanada and seem to miss those (albeit very small number) of actual "bums" who really are poor - as in so poor they eat out of dumpsters. But, ehy, if you want moan about how "your aprt of the world" is worse off; be my guess. You aren't gonna shame me into crying more tears for you when it's alreayd sad enough.

Bottom line slavery in SW exists. Bottom line, poverty exists in sw.

Slaves in SW are mistreated like all slaves re likely to be - hit, killed, imprisoned in small rooms, poorly fed just enough to keep alive and discarded when to weak, and heck even eaten as evdienced by Jabba the Hutt.

Those whoa re poor in SW react in the same way that I'd imagine those in poverty ract in the real world - doing anything they can to sruvive, etaing others' garbage, stealing out of depsertaion, living day to day minute by minute.

Continue to whine, cry, and lie. Entertainment indeed.

 

[Mendoza]

"undercity in Taris in KotOR"

Game over. Mendoza wins YET again.

Mendoza, why do you play these trolls' games and spell it out for them? Now, Avin will make lmae comment about how Taris Undercity is a fake poverty crap or some such.

What a maroon.

Because one day they might learn?

Avin, the examples of poverty in SW might not be as graphic or explicit or severe as the worst real world examples, but to say poverty doesn't exist in SW is ridiculous. In the original trilogy the galaxy is run by a tyrannical xenophobic despotic government that has no problem with annihilating planets wholesale. Slavery is rampant and crime syndicates have huge amounts of power. If you can't infer the existence of extreme poverty from what you see in the films and games, you need to work on your reasoning skills. Pretty much everything Star Wars is targetted at kids as well as adults, so there's a limit to how explicit they can make it.

 

[Avin]

mendonza, point taken, but what i was referring is: what canadians may call poverty we brazilians don't.

i'm telling you, honestly, with no trolling intention, that i played taris in kotor and really didin't think that it was poverty at all. really. maybe i'm used to think about poverty as people who live in 3x3 meters with roof made of plastic but, seriously, that's not poverty to me.

about slavery making the game darker, well, some people here in brazil are still slaves and i'm not kidding. this year in goias state (iirc) 3 government agents were killed by big farmers 'cause they were looking for people that works only for food and just can't leave. this just don't shock me anymore. it does not make the game darker to me.

you are right when you said the game is made for both adult and kids, that's why i can't see darkness there and that's why most of it resides in our imagination.

that said, my points remain the same and you, as a reasonable guy, obviously understand what i'm talking about.

now volo, which spent his time licking his ego on forums, should really think that i'm not lying. i can have a different vision of poverty and darker games but this vision changes from place to place in world. but, if you believe that george lucas parameters for poverty are the only who matter, i can't do nothing.

but, volo, my opinions sometimes are crap, other times are lost in translation, other times i'm just kidding (like when i said you lived in a basement) but i'm not a liar and i haven't make nothing for you call me that.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Volourn's just being his usual 'duh' self. If you take everything he says with an everlasting supply of salt you'll be just fine.

 

[ichpokhudezh]

SW is a stupid universe. where GOOD fights EEEEEVIL and this is all about.

Love, frendliness, courage, treachery etc. - your standard 'epic' set, as expected (by me). What's your point?

have you seen poverty in SW ichpokhudezh? where?

I don't remember EU concentrating on this aspect of the society in particular. Lucas seems to be more concerned with the topics I've listed above. Why do you ask?

i understand that most SW fans tend to see that universe far more darker and deeper than what is shown at movies, books and games.

That's right. Movies/books are, mostly, at the PG rating, so there should be lots of things implied, and a careful reader/spectator will recognize much deeper shades than casual audience. Those who wanted/expected a different from SW fare (which is rather light, as I've mentioned earlier) could be disappointed, but that's totally their own fault.

So, what's your point again?

in fact, SW universe is fairly fascist, there are no real choice in this crap black & white universe unless, of course, you are a fanboy and are looking it with emotional eyes. and, please, do not bring the empire strikes back as a *dark and mature* example of the universe...

Care to explain that 'fascist' reference?

Oh, as the ps - look up and read definitions of 'graphic' and 'naturalistic' in a dictionary, please. These are the words that you can use to express your expectations from a PG-rated space flick from now on.

(edit: I believe the ratings system was not in place for original trilogy).

 

[AlanC9]

mendonza, point taken, but what i was referring is: what canadians may call poverty we brazilians don't.

i'm telling you, honestly, with no trolling intention, that i played taris in kotor and really didin't think that it was poverty at all. really. maybe i'm used to think about poverty as people who live in 3x3 meters with roof made of plastic but, seriously, that's not poverty to me.

But since living standards in the SW universe approximate those in the U.S., shouldn't poverty also be relative to those standards? And if you only meant to say that SW poverty isn't all that bad compared to some real-world poverty, perhaps you should have, you know, said that.

What would have made the poverty more convincing for you, anyway? Can't do the shelter thing since they're underground. A whole bunch of "starvation" phenotypes? Massive art investment for limited gain. Overcrowding? Even if the engine could handle it, we'd have major pathfinding annoyances. Just wondering what you expected Bio to do?

 

[Mendoza]

But since living standards in the SW universe approximate those in the U.S., shouldn't poverty also be relative to those standards? And if you only meant to say that SW poverty isn't all that bad compared to some real-world poverty, perhaps you should have, you know, said that.

Obviously people's definitions of poverty are all relative. People considered wealthy in some countries would be seen as poor in others. But even considering the most terrible conditions on our planet, it's pretty hard to believe the same conditions don't exist in SW, even if they're not shown as explicitly as stuff we can see on the news or, depending on where we live, on the street.

What would have made the poverty more convincing for you, anyway? Can't do the shelter thing since they're underground. A whole bunch of "starvation" phenotypes? Massive art investment for limited gain. Overcrowding? Even if the engine could handle it, we'd have major pathfinding annoyances. Just wondering what you expected Bio to do?

The fact that they're forced to live underground with no chance of seeing daylight says a lot about the conditions they live in anyway.

 

[Reklar]

I think the real problem you're having Avin is that you're missing the entire reason why the Star Wars Universe exists. It's escapist entertainment specifically designed to direct your attention away from real world problems. Anyone can turn on the news or walk along the streets and get their fill of crime, death, poverty, you name it, but where on the news or on the street are you going to find a fictional setting for your mind to escape to and forget all these things? That's why books, movies, music, and television are so popular, because people need to escape once in awhile.

So instead of arguing over who has it worse in the real world, why not keep the arguments relevant to the topic? Then you can argue finer points of logic and detail to your heart's content without the discussion spiraling out of control.

 

[suibhne]

This thread is too funny to leave alone.

What I really can't figure out is why anyone singles out the SW setting for this criticism. I can't think of a single game setting that dealt convincingly (if at all) with the broad social and economic disparities we see in daily life, and KotOR (and Ep. I) dealt with inequity at least marginally better than the original movies - and at least as well as most other computer games I've ever played.

 

[Stark]

What I really can't figure out is why anyone singles out the SW setting for this criticism.

interesting point. we have movies and novels that deal with real world poverty in graphic and realistic manner, yet there seem to be not the case for games (at least none that I know of).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Can you be so certain? Planescape: Torment definitely dealt with poverty in a realistic manner, especially in the first area.

 

[Volourn]

"Can you be so certain? Planescape: Torment definitely dealt with poverty in a realistic manner, especially in the first area."

No more than any other game.

 

[errorcode]

umm...other games had poor folks selling dead bodies to a church like group?

I think Torment portrayed alot more poverty than most other games. From the crime ridden streets and underground begger town to the art direction for the broken down parts of the city and how it was all presented.

 

[suibhne]

I think Torment portrayed alot more poverty than most other games. From the crime ridden streets and underground begger town to the art direction for the broken down parts of the city and how it was all presented.

I'll concede that point - don't know why I didn't remember that.

My problem with this discussion is that we seem to be defining the portrayal of poverty as the simple presentation of social stratification - i.e., inequality. By that definition, there are quite a few games that fit the bill by displaying a strong contrast between the well-heeled and the less fortunate. Even PS:T pretty much avoids showing the degradation and daily struggle of real-life poverty, though, and I'm not sure any game can be faulted for that; it's generally not something that translates well. The inveterate Marxist critic in me applauds games which seem to exhibit a consciousness of inequality, but I still think it's ridiculous to single out Star Wars as particularly lacking in this regard. Some games might do slightly better, but most are worse and none is "real world."