Game News KOTOR II for Christmas?

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Oh fanboys will blame Bethesda, you'll see. It's like blaming LucasArts for KotOR2 because they signed a contract for 12 months with Obsidian, yet fanboys still blame LA.

:rose tinted monocle:

 

[MetalCraze]

Imagine that? A logical middle ground between Obsidian haters and fanboys!

Except LucasArts gave them those months after the release of KotOR2 for consoles to fix PC version (which went over contract time). Obsidian spent those months wanking or something, because PC gamers still got a version where game even refused to install at times.
LucasArts gave them a year to create the game (and it was LA who fully paid during the whole development process), Obsidian gladly agreed and failed to deliver a properly working game. Yet they've sold ~2 mln copies nonetheless.
LucasArts of course suck, however it is mostly Obsidian to blame as they perfectly knew what they were signing, it isn't like LA forced them to.

 

[Silellak]

Imagine that? A logical middle ground between Obsidian haters and fanboys!

Except LucasArts gave them those months after the release of KotOR2 for consoles to fix PC version (which went over contract time). Obsidian spent those months wanking or something, because PC gamers still got a version where game even refused to install at times.
LucasArts gave them a year to create the game (and it was LA who fully paid during the whole development process), Obsidian gladly agreed and failed to deliver a properly working game. Yet they've sold ~2 mln copies nonetheless.
LucasArts of course suck, however it is mostly Obsidian to blame as they perfectly knew what they were signing, it isn't like LA forced them to.

Correct. Obsidian never should've accepted that contract. I can understand the temptation and difficulty refusing, especially for a starting company, but it was too much. If they felt they had to accept the contract because they needed the work, then they should've kept the scope of the game in check.

That being said, I'd love to know who at LA felt that a year was long enough to create a full-fledged RPG.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Obsidian spent those months wanking or something, because PC gamers still got a version where game even refused to install at times.

Unlike Bio's KOTOR which crashed like crazy, didn't want to play nice with ATI cards, and had a sound issue requiring you to disable the sound completely. After how long in development?

LucasArts gave them a year to create the game, Obsidian gladly agreed and failed to deliver a properly working game.

Gladly agreed? When you're a small developer, you take what's given and kiss the hand. As for the "not properly working" bit, that's bullshit. The game had issues and a butchered ending, but it was fully playable.

...and it was LA who fully paid during the whole development process...

Really? I didn't know that. How nice of them.

LucasArts of course suck, however it is mostly Obsidian to blame as they perfectly knew what they were signing, it isn't like LA forced them to.

No, of course not. They should have just gone with another publisher. You know, like Troika and Sir-Tech.

 

[racofer]

Yes yes, and thanks to the choices in the past, look how awesome Obsidian is right now.

R00fles!

 

[Chefe]

That being said, I'd love to know who at LA felt that a year was long enough to create a full-fledged RPG.

Probably those who thought, "We have a full fledged engine here, along with a ton of models, textures, and sounds. We'll hand it over to these guys and have them slap a few new pieces in, whip up an expanded story, and we're good to go."

Obsidian bit off more than they could chew, and somehow managed to "innovate" the existing engine. This is something I'm worried they'll do with Fallout 3, but the HQ Bethstapo - not to be confused with the forum Bethstapo - probably won't let that happen... ironically they're Nazism is a good thing in this situation. Anyways, LA most likely was thinking KOTOR 2 would really be KOTOR 1.5; i.e. a stand alone expansion pack. I applaud Obsidian's ambition, but not too much, because it's virtually unplayable for me.

To those who claim Obsidian shouldn't have taken the contract - what are you smoking? You're starting up your company and you get one of the biggest licenses in the entire entertainment industry. "No thanks, we're going to make Lionheart 2" isn't an option.

 

[MetalCraze]

Correct. Obsidian never should've accepted that contract. I can understand the temptation and difficulty refusing, especially for a starting company, but it was too much. If they felt they had to accept the contract because they needed the work, then they should've kept the scope of the game in check.

The main problem is that that even now Obsidian doesn't seem to learn. They were making 3 projects at the same time which led to Aliens RPG going down as during 2 years we never even saw a single screenshot and even now they are working on AP, Fallout spin-off (again 12 months) and another "unannounced project" at the same time.
Looks like EA's game factory on a minor scale to me.

That being said, I'd love to know who at LA felt that a year was long enough to create a full-fledged RPG.

They are businessmen, they don't care as long as they deliver and judging by how Obsidian continues to jump on "a project in 12 months" something tells me that 12 months wasn't necessary only a LA idea but rather an idea of the two as even Bethesda spends not less than 3 years making one project at a time.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

HOLY SHIT VAULT DWELLER IS POSTING NEWS AGAIN.

Oh no, someone just necro'd a thread. My bad.

 

[MetalCraze]

Obsidian spent those months wanking or something, because PC gamers still got a version where game even refused to install at times.

Unlike Bio's KOTOR which crashed like crazy, didn't want to play nice with ATI cards, and had a sound issue requiring you to disable the sound completely. After how long in development?

Hmm that's strange - this is what was happening to me in KotOR2. (btw I had ATI R9000 Pro vcard when KotOR1 came out and never did it crash on me, apart from being laggy).
And KotOR1 didn't eat so many resources as KotOR2 did (a game with XBox level graphics was lagging on a system that ran Splinter Cell 3 in SM3 mode with shadows turned on ok while looking worse than KotOR1)

Gladly agreed? When you're a small developer, you take what's given and kiss the hand.

Oh please, small developer? Obsidian was riding on hype how they have guys who worked on PS:T, IWD, PoR etc. at the time when they began. Besides they had the same bosses as BIS with Fergie leading them. They had a -name-. That surely means something, right? Obsidian still secures contracts (some of which are 1-year) to games that are either Bioware's (and now Bethesda's) sequels, expansions to Bioware sequels or copy Bioware most recent games. Still kissing a hand? You would think ~2 mln KotOR2 sales would've changed the situation. I believe Obsidian are just greedy.
Being a really small developer (12 people) didn't stop Troika (where guys had no experience of running a company) from securing a ~3 year contract, launching Arcanum, a totally new franchise in a completely new universe on an absolutely new homebrew engine, with zero available assets at the start and there the publisher was really at fault (Sierra was ignoring the leak of game for 6 months, not letting Troika to fix bugs during those six months etc).

Really? I didn't know that. How nice of them.

Yeah, I suppose LA planned expenses only for 12 months because of contract. You can only blame them for not being good guys and deciding to spend more time and money than they were planning.

No, of course not. They should have just gone with another publisher. You know, like Troika and Sir-Tech.

Yes and Arcanum turned out to be much better than all Obsidian's RPGs put together.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I don't suppose it occurred to people that there's a middle ground, where both Obsidian and Lucasarts share the blame?

Obsidian for both accepting such a short contract for game development and also for not keeping their ambitions in-check, knowing the limited development time.

Lucasarts for going forward with releasing the game despite knowing it needed a few more months of development time on Obsidian's end to properly finish and polish.

Imagine that? A logical middle ground between Obsidian haters and fanboys!

Except it worked out for both Obsidian and LucasArts.

They sold 2 million copies of their game FFS.

The only party that lost out was the gaming community, who turned into apologists for a large successful corporation like Obsidian which is swimming in money and neither knows nor cares personally for the people who so vehemently defend them.

 

[racofer]

The only party that lost out was the gaming community, who turned into apologists for a large successful corporation like Obsidian which is swimming in money and neither knows nor cares personally for the people who so vehemently defend them.

This is.... refreshing to read. *Manly tears*

:incline of the codex:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh please, small developer? Obsidian was riding on hype how they have guys who worked on PS:T, IWD, PoR etc. at the time when they began.

And? You're confusing hype with size. Let's say I hire/attract a few well known industry veterans. Would that suddenly make Iron Tower a big developer? Fuck no.

Small developer means a small outfit that completely relies on and can't exist without publisher's goodwill.

Besides they had the same bosses as BIS with Fergie leading them. They had a -name-. That surely means something, right?

Very little. What do their names mean to moneybags? BIS? BIS went out of business and never produced a blockbuster title. Feargus? Feargus was known for fucking up TORN and mismanaging everything that could be mismanaged. PST? Sold poorly. Had too many words and not enough bloom. Fallout? Sold poorly. Well, each games sold 400-500k, if I'm not mistaken, but that's "poorly" in the publishers world. IWD games? Please. So, what names, skyway?

Obsidian still secures contracts (some of which are 1-year)...

Let me fix it: "Obsidian still have no choice but to accept what's offered, which, unfortunately, still includes 1-year development agreements." Much better.

Still kissing a hand? You would think ~2 mln KotOR2 sales would've changed the situation.

Think, skyway, think. If it changed the situation, don't you think that Obsidian would be working on K3? Feargus practically begged for K3 in every interview for 2 years, but LA wasn't impressed with sales.

Btw, where did 2 mil figure come from? I don't claim to know the numbers, but I've heard that K2 sold less than half of what K1 sold. Googling a bit produced 1.2 mil vs K1's 2.5-3 mil. So, any links proving 2 mil?

I believe Obsidian are just greedy.

Based on what?

Being a really small developer (12 people) didn't stop Troika (where guys had no experience of running a company) from securing a ~3 year contract....

So? What does it prove? That Obsidian can do it but they are too greedy because who would want to have a 3-year agreement and security/stability it brings?

No, of course not. They should have just gone with another publisher. You know, like Troika and Sir-Tech.

Yes and Arcanum turned out to be much better than all Obsidian's RPGs put together.

Without a doubt. What's your point? That Troika was a better developer? I agree. Did anyone argue this point?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The only party that lost out was the gaming community, who turned into apologists for a large successful corporation like Obsidian which is swimming in money and neither knows nor cares personally for the people who so vehemently defend them.

Swimming in money? Large corporation? Funny.

 

[BethesdaLove]

I don't think anyone with half a brain would actually blame Bethesda if Obsidian fuck up this time, because there is really NO excuse now.

EA games suggest otherwise.
And I am like nature - I dont care.

 

[MetalCraze]

And? You're confusing hype with size. Let's say I hire/attract a few well known industry veterans. Would that suddenly make Iron Tower a big developer? Fuck no.

Except you will get some free hype and more publishers wanting to have a deal with you because omg he has that gaming dev pro on his team (see Lionheart)

Small developer means a small outfit that completely relies on and can't exist without publisher's goodwill.

Oh please it's like nothing depends on Obsidian - considering that... read below

PST? Sold poorly.

If you will call "PS:T sold good enough, just not as much as BG" (c) Avellone - poorly.

Fallout? Sold poorly.

So poorly that they had a sequel the following year. And then a tactical spin-off. And then a console crap action game. Damn Fallout was such a failure.

Well, each games sold 400-500k, if I'm not mistaken, but that's "poorly" in the publishers world.

BG1 sold not too much more, yet everyone was sucking its cock with "omg what a major success"

Let me fix it: "Obsidian still have no choice but to accept what's offered, which, unfortunately, still includes 1-year development agreements." Much better.

No. You are missing one small thing - because of a greed Obsidian tries to secure as many contracts as possible, quickly makes a crappy game and secures even more short contracts. This is what killed Aliens RPG. Obsidian fired 20 people. And if this lesson wasn't enough Obsidian secured another two contracts. Obsidian is like EA on a lesser scale - trying to churn out as much as possible fast-food products, firing stuff if it fails to deliver, considering that now it is pretty obvious that Obsidian is incapable of handling 3 projects at the same time.
Another thing you miss is that if Obsidian was such a marketing failure that can only get what other will want to give them - they wouldn't be getting all those contracts related to best-game-evar cashcows.

Think, skyway, think. If it changed the situation, don't you think that Obsidian would be working on K3? Feargus practically begged for K3 in every interview for 2 years, but LA wasn't impressed with sales.

Did he? Obsidian actually wasn't even giving a fuck about patching KotOR2. After KotOR2 Feargus quickly jumped onto another sequel to a Bioware game and his studio made crap, again. You won't blame Atari this time.

I don't claim to know the numbers, but I've heard that K2 sold less than half of what K1 sold. Googling a bit produced 1.2 mil vs K1's 2.5-3 mil. So, any links proving 2 mil?

There was post in 2007 on the Codex from one of Obsidian's developers where he said that they sold ~1.75 mln of copies but that number was old. It will be quite hard to find 2 years later but I'm sure some other codexers may remember that according to that dev Obsidian was anything but not happy with sales.

So? What does it prove? That Obsidian can do it but they are too greedy because who would want to have a 3-year agreement and security/stability it brings?

No it only proves inability/lack of wish of Obsidian to secure a normal contract. Despite its bugs Arcanum still turned to be a much better and actually finished game than KotOR2. And as you remember management was not something Troika was good at. Fergie is like a cunning fox compared to them because he actually secures contracts to sequels of top titles.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And? You're confusing hype with size. Let's say I hire/attract a few well known industry veterans. Would that suddenly make Iron Tower a big developer? Fuck no.

Except you will get some free hype and more publishers wanting to have a deal with you because omg he has that gaming dev pro on his team (see Lionheart)

It goes without saying that a company with well known developers will attract more interest than a company with no-names. However, there is no special treatment, generous contracts and ideal working conditions (like 3-year development cycle) just because Avellone is working there. They get a "reaction bonus", that's all.

Small developer means a small outfit that completely relies on and can't exist without publisher's goodwill.

Oh please it's like nothing depends on Obsidian - considering that... read below

Quite a lot depends on Obsidian and they could and should have done a better job with KOTOR 2. But just like any other small developer (i.e. they are neither Bioware nor Bethesda), they are a publisher's bitch.

PST? Sold poorly.

If you will call "PS:T sold good enough, just not as much as BG" (c) Avellone - poorly.

Good enough is not a number.

Fallout? Sold poorly.

So poorly that they had a sequel the following year. And then a tactical spin-off. And then a console crap action game. Damn Fallout was such a failure.

That's an argument? IWD must have sold a ton then. It had an expansion, a free expansion, and a sequel.

According to Desslock, who may or may not be a trustworthy source:

As of May 2000:

Baldur's Gate (all formats) 500,000
BG expansion pack 156,000
Fallout 144,000
Fallout 2 123,000
Diablo 1,300,000
Revenant 37,000
Darkstone 75,000
Ultima IX: Ascension 73,000
Planescape: Torment 73,000

Well, each games sold 400-500k, if I'm not mistaken, but that's "poorly" in the publishers world.

BG1 sold not too much more, yet everyone was sucking its cock with "omg what a major success"

a) see the chart above; it says 4 times more.
b) Bio says it sold over 2 mil to date. The expansion sold 600k. See the difference?

If Fallout did sell 400-500k to-date, it's still 4-5 times less.

Let me fix it: "Obsidian still have no choice but to accept what's offered, which, unfortunately, still includes 1-year development agreements." Much better.

No. You are missing one small thing - because of a greed Obsidian tries to secure as many contracts as possible, quickly makes a crappy game and secures even more short contracts.

:facepalm:

This is what killed Aliens RPG.

SEGA's financial situation killed Aliens.

And if this lesson wasn't enough Obsidian secured another two contracts. Obsidian is like EA on a lesser scale - trying to churn out as much as possible fast-food products, firing stuff if it fails to deliver, considering that now it is pretty obvious that Obsidian is incapable of handling 3 projects at the same time.

Quite possibly. But let's keep in mind that focusing on one project is what killed Troika. They finished Bloodlines and had nothing else to fall back to. From what I know, Obsidian started working on the announced project way before they were offered FO3. As for FO3, did you really expect them to refuse? Would you? Would you really call accepting a chance to work on a Fallout game greed?

Another thing you miss is that if Obsidian was such a marketing failure that can only get what other will want to give them - they wouldn't be getting all those contracts related to best-game-evar cashcows.

Who else is out there? There are 3 RPG companies in NA at the moment: Bethesda, Bioware, and Obsidian. Obsidian is at the bottom, so they get all the crumbs.

Did he? Obsidian actually wasn't even giving a fuck about patching KotOR2.

Oh really?

a) Obsidian wanted to patch the ending and restore unfinished content. Lucas Arts refused. Much like Atari refused to let Troika patch ToEE. I'm sure that you're aware that a developer can't release a patch without a publisher's approval.

b) Obsidian did release a simple LA-approved 1.0b patch.

Also, from around K2 time interview with Jim Ward, LA president:

"There's an attitude in this industry that says in order to make a great game, it takes whatever time it takes and it takes whatever money it takes, and that that's okay. Well it's not okay, it's wrong. It's not okay in other entertainment businesses. In other businesses it's big trouble."

Any questions, skyway?

After KotOR2 Feargus quickly jumped onto another sequel to a Bioware game and his studio made crap, again. You won't blame Atari this time.

It was crap from the Codex point of view (i.e. not enough choices & consequences), but it was finished, it was playable, and it sold well. No?

All and all, it was a much better game than most mainstream RPG. Way better than Drakensang and Mass Effect, for example.

I don't claim to know the numbers, but I've heard that K2 sold less than half of what K1 sold. Googling a bit produced 1.2 mil vs K1's 2.5-3 mil. So, any links proving 2 mil?

There was post in 2007 on the Codex from one of Obsidian's developers where he said that they sold ~1.75 mln of copies but that number was old. It will be quite hard to find 2 years later but I'm sure some other codexers may remember that according to that dev Obsidian was anything but not happy with sales.

I'm sure they were, but it's Lucas Arts' happiness that matters in this case.

No it only proves inability/lack of wish of Obsidian to secure a normal contract.

What does wisdom have to do with it? You get what you're given. Unfortunately, it's as simple as that.