Legend of Grimrock 2

[Metro]

http://www.grimrock.net




https://af.gog.com/game/legend_of_grimrock_2?as=1649904300

Spoiler

Not Grimrogue:

Everybody loves a good roguelike, right? Antti and I are big fans of roguelike games here at the office, so it was only natural that this idea, the amalgamation of a roguelike game with Grimrock, has popped up every now and then in our discussions. After all, the tile-based nature of Grimrock seems to be a perfect match with roguelike game design.
With this design levels would be procedurally generated, with some custom made levels here and there. Turn-based combat would probably work better than pure realtime. We even made a quick prototype entitled Grimrogue with turn-based combat and a minimap in one corner of the screen.

One problem we quickly realized was that the player would be focused on the minimap when exploring the randomly generated dungeon and all the gorgeous 3D graphics would be almost like a gimmick. We also had our doubts about turn-based combat. Turn based combat works really well from a topdown perspective where you can see all the units and can think about the best tactics. In first person view where you can only see in one direction, turn-based combat takes away tactical movement and reduces combat to a locked in place affair.

And apparently no overworld:

We really wanted this idea to work. The final paragraph of the unreleased post gives some hints about the problem with this design: “tightly centered around the party”, “focus on exploration”, “instantly familiar with the new game”… The problem with this design is the lack of focus. We believe that the charm of Grimrock is compactness, tight focus and emphasis on fun core gameplay. In Grimrock 1, the environment, the dungeon itself has personality and the quest was personal to the characters. Having multiple locations with different atmospheres and multiple linked goals would take some of that charm away.

More details of the scrapped ideas (including a proposed overworld map) on their blog: http://www.grimrock.net/2013/03/21/scrapped-game-designs/

 

[Excidium]

Turn based combat works really well from a topdown perspective where you can see all the units and can think about the best tactics. In first person view where you can only see in one direction, turn-based combat takes away tactical movement and reduces combat to a locked in place affair.

See codex, even people making waltzing simulators understand that.

 

[Jaesun]

Dungeon Master did not require the Combat Mambo™ (as in you could actually melee some creatures but not ALL of them). You could still do Combat Mambo but it was not really required (except for a few).

I still do agree with them that turn-based just would not work for their game. However I just hope there might be some developer that decides to do a Grimrock like but do a turn based combat. That would be the game I would purchase.

 

[Metro]

They make good points but my concern is growing that they aren't going to improve on much over what they did in the first game. While I didn't expect an overworld and tempered my hopes for something Arx Fatalis-like in another thread they need to at least go halfway there and create an interesting 'cavern world' and not just another generic ten story one-location dungeon.

 

[Jaesun]

If they adopt Chaos Strikes Back, it would be INCLINE.... but the need to re-think the combat a bit more.

I however doubt they would go that EXTREME. That game is fucking BRUTAL.

 

[evdk]

If they adopt Chaos Strikes Back, it would be INCLINE.... but the need to re-think the combat a bit more.

I however doubt they would go that EXTREME. That game is fucking BRUTAL.

Which they won't because their audience can't take it.

 

[Stabwound]

Being remotely good at dancing in Grimrock meant you could win most 1vs1 battles without ever getting hit.

Turn based combat works really well from a topdown perspective where you can see all the units and can think about the best tactics. In first person view where you can only see in one direction, turn-based combat takes away tactical movement and reduces combat to a locked in place affair.

See codex, even people making waltzing simulators understand that.

You're taking the quote out of context. He's referring to a roguelike turn-based system where you and every monster move at the same time in turns. They're not talking about the typical Wizardry combat system at all in this case.

Weirdly enough, you could very easily turn the Grimrock battle system into a roguelike system. It almost is one other than turns are forced on a timer every 1-2 seconds and you as a player can generally move as fast as you can press buttons. But yeah, it would be terrible as a roguelike.

Since they're making this a full out sequel rather than an expansion pack, I hope it's for reasons other than monetary. You'd hope they'd build on the game rather than putting out another 10-floor dungeon map with more character classes or whatever.

 

[Mother Russia]

Dungeon Master did not require the Combat Mambo™ (as in you could actually melee some creatures but not ALL of them). You could still do Combat Mambo but it was not really required (except for a few).

I still do agree with them that turn-based just would not work for their game. However I just hope there might be some developer that decides to do a Grimrock like but do a turn based combat. That would be the game I would purchase.

Wait, so you never purchased Grimrock? Then why exactly do you go about saying 'combat mambo lolz' every other post when you haven't even played the game? Grimrock doesn't require the combat dodging in EVERY combat, just like Dungeon Master.

Or did you pirate the game and play through it that way?

 

[octavius]

Turn based is only "required" if it's sufficiently advanced/tactical, like Bard's Tale games, Wizardries and Might&Magic 1-2. If it's simple enough, like Might&Magic 3-5 it may as well be real time, IMO.

 

[Grauken]

Grimrock doesn't require the combat dodging in EVERY combat, just like Dungeon Master.

Sure it does if you play on hard. Even low level enemies kill you in a jiffy

 

[Horus]

Turn based combat in first person is simply jrpg combat without the animations of your party whenever you're in combat and frankly it does not suit this type of fast paced genre's(it takes away the feeling of loneliness of wandering alone in dungeon if you are stopped by encounters every two meters.)

 

[commie]

Excellent news. Our bro Charles will only have Might and Magic X as a serious contender to his magnum opus. I won't include Grimoire as any sane person knows that will never be released.

 

[Mother Russia]

Grimrock doesn't require the combat dodging in EVERY combat, just like Dungeon Master.

Sure it does if you play on hard. Even low level enemies kill you in a jiffy

EXACTLY.

So, don't fucking play on hard. Play on Normal difficulty.

 

[HobGoblin42]

Those design decisions they've made proved me again how professional and focussed the Grimrock devs are (in contrast to the majority of other indie devs). To cut your own game concept and ideas back to the very important essence is one of the most difficult (and painful) part of game design, in this example: discarding a world map and outdoor levels.

Edit: but nevertheless they should definitely rethink their combat system, because real-time combat combined with grid-based movement just don't match.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Turn based is only "required" if it's sufficiently advanced/tactical, like Bard's Tale games, Wizardries and Might&Magic 1-2. If it's simple enough, like Might&Magic 3-5 it may as well be real time, IMO.

TB <==> Deep Tactics

 

[evdk]

Edit: but nevertheless they should definitely rethink their combat system, because real-time combat combined with grid-based movement just don't match.

I'll delete my DM copy immediately.

 

[HobGoblin42]

I'll delete my DM copy immediately.

It wasn't the realtime combat that made Dungeon Master such a great game back then. In fact, the interactivity and the haptic made DM so revolutionary. The character evolvement, the puzzles and traps were also great. And their graphic engine represented the best looking dungeons (with correct perspective!) at this time. FTL created a true masterpiece that was at least 3 years ahead its competitors. It's sad this company went out of business (after the mediocre DM 2).

But regarding the combat: luring strong enemies like Knights into doors to kill them by closing that door wasn't great design back then either. Same with Grimrock: you steadily have to step left and right (with a four character party!) to get strong enemies killed - very tactical. It can be fun, but after killing 50 blue raptors by mambo step dance, the combat became pretty dull.

 

[Lady_Error]

Let's face it: the original DM was pretty much a one-trick pony with little replayability value. I did not enjoy its combat too much either, it is just that at the time the whole thing was awesome and new enough to not notice that the combat wasn't great at all.

Eye of the Beholder 2 is a Dungeon Master clone with a better story, more NPC's and more varied locations - even a small outside world. Somehow, all this made it a far more enjoyable game despite real-time combat.

Real-time combat makes the games more immediate and obviously requires a less laid-back or less contemplative playing style. Real-time is more Action than Strategy, except if the playing field is large enough to apply some tactics.

Grimrock is basically just an action combat simulator in a convoluted dungeon. I prefer story, open-world and planning/strategy in my RPG's.

 

[octavius]

Combat was easily the weakest aspect of Dungeon Master, but the combat of DM and Chaos Strikes Back was still more tactical than any of the DM clones to follow, mainly because unlike EoB, Black Crypt and Lands of Lore you could to a certain degree use the dungeon against your enemies.
Dungeon Master and its clones mostly were enjoyable games, not because of the combat, but rather despite it. The whole concept of 3-6 characters moving as one blob and fighting in real time is awkward, and the genre should have died out when Ultima Underworld was released.

 

[Zep Zepo]

I quit the old Grimrock on Level 4. Being an old console tard I just couldn't get the hang of doing the enemy dance and rage quit at that point.

Zep--

 

[Grauken]

Grimrock doesn't require the combat dodging in EVERY combat, just like Dungeon Master.

Sure it does if you play on hard. Even low level enemies kill you in a jiffy

EXACTLY.

So, don't fucking play on hard. Play on Normal difficulty.

Why would I, I enjoyed the combat mambo. Not in every game, but RT-combat like LoG once in a while is nice. One error and you're deadly wounded, another and you're likely dead. Keeps you on the edge and makes you pretty paranoid about what might lurk beyond the next corner. I loved every moment of it.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

The lack of roguelike is a shame. Clearly they never played Dungeon Hack. You didn't want to focus entirely on the minimap in that, you'd miss secrets, though most were really obvious.

 

[Luzur]

too bad, Grimrock was fun but i wanted to see some outdoors sections, i want to get out of those 10+ floor dungeons sometimes too.

 

[Renevent]

They make good points but my concern is growing that they aren't going to improve on much over what they did in the first game. While I didn't expect an overworld and tempered my hopes for something Arx Fatalis-like in another thread they need to at least go halfway there and create an interesting 'cavern world' and not just another generic ten story one-location dungeon.

I tend to agree. I don't want to criticize Grimrock too much, as personally I though it was great, but for the sequel I really wanted to see them take the design to the next level. Regardless, I think whatever they do it will probably still be very fun, even if they don't realize the game's complete potential.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Where does is say that Grimrock 2 won't have outdoor sections? I'm fairly certain that's what they're gunning for in the sequel, they just won't be using it as an overworld map/hub area. At least not on the major scale that they had planned.