Legend of Grimrock

[Crooked Bee]

Add me on the list of those who enjoy the combat. I particularly enjoy the pace. So far (I'm only on floor 4, though), it is fast paced yet never feels too frantic even with an all-mage party. Maneuvering around several enemies is helluva fun. Kudos to the developers for balancing the enemies' speed so well.

I must admit I was skeptical about the game before release; I fully expected it to have pretty graphics but no substance. I was wrong. Grimrock is an incredibly enjoyable game for its subgenre. My only complaint is that the dungeon is a bit too adventurer-friendly and not dangerous enough so far, but this may change later. In any case, I really hope they do an expert level scenario akin to Chaos Strikes Back next, more dangerous and non-linear from the get-go. But that would probably be too good to be true.

But not providing hotkeys and forcing you to click with your mouse for every single melee attack? That is just bad UI design.

I'm pretty sure that's a conscious design decision; like it or not, the game is supposed to test your reflexes and mouse handling skills. Just imagine how trivial combat would be with hotkeys for runes and melee attacks; the player would just steamroll over everything. I can see how it may not be everyone's kind of game, but I don't think it's bad UI design. If anything, the game feels to me pretty well-balanced around this particular element.

 

[mondblut]

...it reminds you of older, better garbage, it's best garbage ever?

There's the questionable part. I wouldn't say DM or EOB or LOL are "better" than LOG (then again, I never endured over a quarter to half of any of them, but I fancy that's enough to judge). It fits right in among those as an instant classic of the subgenre. The puzzle and dungeon design are superb, and that's about everything said subgenre requires.

The fact that the subgenre itself is garbage is a different issue. In all aspects where LOG sucks (and there are many), all the DMs, EOBs, Lands of Lores, Ravenlofts, Menzoberranzans, Ishars, Stonekeeps, Anvil of Dawns, Dungeon Hacks ad nauseum in the world suck precisely as much.

 

[sea]

Question to all who finished level 9:

Spoiler

There is a spiral corridor with ogres to the south-west. At the southern part in that section, facing north kind of in the middle of it there is is a hidden button.

WHAT DOES PUSHING IT DO? This is bothering me.

Spoiler

From what I can tell, when you get deeper into the spiral tunnel, a wall will shut and lock you in with the Ogres. The switch will open the wall again. I only found a few secrets on level 9, and I doubt there are many I missed.

 

[Marsal]

...it reminds you of older, better garbage, it's best garbage ever?

There's the questionable part. I wouldn't say DM or EOB or LOL are "better" than LOG (then again, I never endured over a quarter to half of any of them, but I fancy that's enough to judge). It fits right in among those as an instant classic of the subgenre. The puzzle and dungeon design are superb, and that's about everything said subgenre requires.

The fact that the subgenre itself is garbage is a different issue. In all aspects where LOG sucks (and there are many), all the DMs, EOBs, Lands of Lores, Ravenlofts, Menzoberranzans, Ishars, Stonekeeps, Anvil of Dawns, Dungeon Hacks ad nauseum in the world suck precisely as much.

I was thinking "better" in comparison to current games, but yeah, the way it is written your remark is accurate.

One could also make an argument that older games were "limited" by technology or chose to sacrifice some elements as a compromise. However, it is a slippery slope like that turnbased vs real time thing that gets brought up constantly, even if not true.

Another things is that they had all these examples/influences and consciously chose to implement the most BSB combat and character system they could imagine. Is it such a huge thing to have systems that make sense and force you to make sacrifices and compromises in building your character? How is this at odds with other elements of gameplay? Would tying dexterity to ranged attacks make the rest of the game less enjoyable? Would adding traits that are well thought out and influence the characters more than a meaningless bonus to some stat (Minotaur head hunter trait is the only decent one) lessen the game experience by making it too complicated? Is making high strength, low dexterity Minotaurs, with head hunter trait the best archers conductive to good gameplay or even "logical"?

 

[Jasede]

Absolutely not. A better game would blend these classical CRPG elements with the blobbing dungeon crawler to create a better, more in-depth experience. That said, this is still more enjoyable to play than Mass Effect 3, isn't it?

Not that I would know, I don't touch that stuff with a ten foot pole.

 

[Stabwound]

I agree with the criticisms: character system is very boring, traits could be better, magic system could be better, real time combat isn't the best. Blah blah blah.

However, it's fuck of a lot more of a CRPG, and fun, than anything that's come out in a very long time. Without spoilers some of the puzzles are pretty tricky and the dungeon itself is pretty fun to explore. This is what I was hoping Skyrim dungeons would be like, but no, they're a straight line and "puzzles" consist of "hurrrr match the symbols up with the ones right in front of my face? I'm such a hardcore gamer!" which is cool the first time, and then you realize EVERY puzzle is like that and it never gets harder. It's like they designed one puzzle and pasted it over and over. I bet some of the puzzles in LoG would make Skyrim kiddies cry. Skyrim had how many years and how many people working on it, and they couldn't design some good dungeons? It's shameful.

Let's remember this:

1. The game is the product of an indie team of 4 guys who probably self-funded it.
2. It's pretty damn good for what it is, and doesn't pretend to be anything else: a Dungeon Master clone.
3. It's pretty massively successful for an indie game, especially one of this type, giving them a lot of funds for their next game. Future expansions/installations are practically guaranteed.
4. They have a rock-solid engine and foundation that could probably easily be converted into a turn-based blobber format.
5. Adding and expanding upon the character system is probably trivial and will definitely be done.
6. It's the first good game of its type in over 10 years. And it's surprisingly popular, which is only a good thing.

I, for one, have great hope for the future.

 

[made]

The fact that the subgenre itself is garbage is a different issue.

Why are you forcing yourself to play garbage when there was a perfectly fine TB RPG released the very same day that could occupy your time instead?

 

[Brayko]

Just beat level 1 and I got to say, that this exactly the type of game that I'm looking for these days. First game in a long time I do not regret buying. Loads of fun ahead.

 

[mondblut]

The fact that the subgenre itself is garbage is a different issue.

Why are you forcing yourself to play garbage when there was a perfectly fine TB RPG released the very same day that could occupy your time instead?

Which one? The new Avernum? I've already played the old one, and good half of Exile 1 before. That's more than enough for me.

Not to mention a sane man could only endure a portion of Vogel's incredibly repetetive catalogue through his lifetime, and I pretty much hit my limit already.

 

[made]

Yea that one. Despite being a Vogel game and remake at that, I thought it would preferable to playing Pacman in 3D.

 

[Regdar]

Add me on the list of those who enjoy the combat.

I'm pretty sure that's a conscious design decision; like it or not, the game is supposed to test your reflexes and mouse handling skills.

Fair enough.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...lets-play-ys-origin.64811/page-3#post-1816543

Naturally it's better than Witcher 2's combat. This is a good fast-paced action game, while W2 fails at good action combat.

Add me on the list of those who enjoy the combat.

the game is supposed to test your reflexes and mouse handling skills.

W2 fails at good action combat.

Created CrookedBee.txt

Next up: Jasede.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ds-on-preview-at-rpg-watch.20729/#post-424238

Wow. Thank you for this link, VD. Even if the game has sucky twitch combat I am already sure to buy it just because of this. I love walking through a lively fantasy world, and this will give me many fond memories of days past - Ultima 7, Gothic, Morrowind (just art-design). Great news!

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-witcher-reactions.20967/page-58#post-475899

And it has sex-cards, twitchy action-combat, no character creation, no party, no application of skills during dialogue...

Everything the Codex likes!

It appears so...

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ots-best-rpg-of-2007.22570/page-3#post-478962

You'd have to be blind not to notice the overwhelmingly positive response of The Witcher on the Codex. It is rather... well. Annoying! The Codex isn't supposed to actually like a new game. Now, I could understand it if this were MotB - a proper RPG. But I can't really understand it with an action-adventure-RPG with realtime combat and with such a simplistic character system, even more simple than Gothic's

Oh this one's good:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...er-for-their-witcher-patch.25951/#post-580307

Sorry, I only enjoy real roleplaying games, with a party and hopefully overland travel and tactical combat, so I really don't dig action games like The Witcher.

And finally, the gist of what this thread is about:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ssions-of-new-vegas.50938/page-5#post-1376091

I wouldn't dare lie to you, my dear Lyric Suite.
But please keep in mind, after not getting a decent RPG in years and years, perceptions are liable to be awfully skewed.

Yes. Yes they are.

I believe my work here is done.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Do me! Do me!

 

[Crooked Bee]

And... where's the contradiction exactly?

 

[mondblut]

And... where's the contradiction exactly?

Right here:

good action combat

 

[Jaedar]

The last boss was kinda.... tarded. I guess it is the final exam on everything you've learned regarding the combat( ie, just waltz like a motherfucker) but it felt like the final floor(s) dropped most of the puzzle elements. I was expecting(and looking forward to) some deviously complex teleporter puzzle.

Posting final stats. I really failed when it came to finding stuff.

All in all, I found it to be enjoyable, and certainly worth the 12 dollars I spent on admission. Not sure if I'd want more without some improvements to the combat/character development though.

 

[CorpseZeb]

My God, what's problem with the combat system? It's perfect natural, feels perfect natural if you ever played DM or EoB, that is, hand finds all necessary movies subconsciously, combat is fun - and - by timing of individual attack - and -"waltizng" - quite strategic. Hot keys would ruin game, totally. This is not a JA, for the Saviour sake...

Ps. And, for an "indie" game, is quite professional produced. No to mention about how good it looks.

 

[Haba]

It is a dungeon master clone. All dungeon master clones have shit combat. If they don't, they become something else.

It is a subgenre of games where you mainly hug walls. Fighting enemies isn't supposed to be the focus.

I still bought a copy, even though I don't like the genre at all. It has been long enough since DM, so might as well refresh my memory with a fresh serving. Still don't like it, but can recognize a well made product of the genre.

Now, coming to a dungeon master clone thread to argue about the combat... that is retarded. Do you also visit platformer threads and complain about jumping?

 

[Nattvardsvin]

If the jumping was badly implemented, I guess I would.

 

[Wyrmlord]

So basically I have this style of playing this game.

I make everyone a Minotaur Fighter.

I make the front two people attack first.

Then I switch flank positions with front positions.

Then I attack with the new front guys.

Then I switch back again.

I have gotten very fast at it. At any given time, all three but one fighter will be on the time-down, so no hands are left idle.

 

[zeitgeist]

...it reminds you of older, better garbage, it's best garbage ever?

There's the questionable part. I wouldn't say DM or EOB or LOL are "better" than LOG (then again, I never endured over a quarter to half of any of them, but I fancy that's enough to judge). It fits right in among those as an instant classic of the subgenre. The puzzle and dungeon design are superb, and that's about everything said subgenre requires.

The fact that the subgenre itself is garbage is a different issue. In all aspects where LOG sucks (and there are many), all the DMs, EOBs, Lands of Lores, Ravenlofts, Menzoberranzans, Ishars, Stonekeeps, Anvil of Dawns, Dungeon Hacks ad nauseum in the world suck precisely as much.

The problem I have with this particular subgenre (I'll call it DCB as per Jasede's post listing the distinctions) is that its strengths are exactly the same as the CDC's strengths, except it has horrible combat and character building. I mean, you can have the exact same features - puzzles, cleverly designed dungeons, exploration, etc. in a CDC. Only with decent combat. And a bunch of race/class/skill/stat combinations. And itemization/paperdolling. And even proper quests. And so on. The only real distinction between DCB and CDC that even makes DCB a real subgenre seems to be that in a DCB game, all RPG features must suck.

It just isn't whole, it deliberately ignores things that are really important parts of an RPG to me. And it's not even a turn-based/phase-based/realtime issue, you could have a reasonably complex combat system, and skill/stat/spell/equipment/etc customization with any of those. But this is a lite version. The genre's equivalent of hidden object games and browser "MMOs". The Back in Action.

 

[CorpseZeb]

So basically I have this style of playing this game. [cuts lots of complicated, unnecessary and, frankly, scary stuff]

Sir, time to learn dance. Time to learn Waltzing!

 

[Kaol]

You have to ask yourself is the game fun? If yes then thats all that matters. Personally I enjoy the game for its puzzles. And the combat isnt as bad as people make out.

 

[Kaol]

I'm not sure i'd call the game an RPG though. Its more of an FPS/puzzle game hybrid.

 

[Jaesun]

Define RPG.

 

[Zed]

I'm not sure i'd call the game an RPG though. Its more of an FPS/puzzle game hybrid.

You're right. There's definitely a lack of popamole shooting and romances.