Let's twist MCA's words until they don't sound retarded

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Bioshock and HL2 both presented their stories better than PS:T did.

Uhhh.....no. That's bullshit right there. Absolute bullshit. Both made you no more than a spectator in the narrative, each in different ways. Half Life 2 (not the first one, the first one was pretty good) went completely backwards on the "experiencing the story firsthand" idea by implementing retarded "listen to Alyx/Barney/etc. ramble on sequences" that were oh so I Can't Believe It's Not Cutscene™. Bioshock just aped System Shock in the "hey guys, let's turn on a tape recorder at any important event and leave it lying around". System Shock 2 made sense with the fact that the majority of people were scientists, and the remainder military. It made sense for them to record things. Bioshock...not so much. Seemed forced for some random people to just leave a bunch of convenient audio diaries laying around.

Plus, Torment did one thing really well...it synched up the motives of the protagonist and the player nicely. The player, in a story driven game, wants to experience things and find out what is going on. The Nameless One, in the game, wants to find out what is going on, and any experience has a chance of triggering a memory.

Anywho, I really doubt Avellone means a word of half the stuff he says. Let's be completely honest here...he works in the industry. It's his livelihood. He doesn't have the luxury of being able to rip every "next-gen" fool a new one because he could be working with him the next second. I mean...seriously...when is the last time you've ever heard a developer straight up slam another studio of reputes' games or design theory? You don't. Plus, Obsidian probably wants a "united front" towards the more "profitable sector" they seem to be targeting (hello Alpha Protocol!).

That, or the curse of the video-game industry turning any good designer bat-shit insane or stupid (or both) has finally hit Avellone in the same way it hit Warren Spector, Richard Garriot, Ken Levine, Peter Molyneux, Itagaki, etc.

 

[spacemoose]

Anywho, I really doubt Avellone means a word of half the stuff he says. Let's be completely honest here...he works in the industry. It's his livelihood. He doesn't have the luxury of being able to rip every "next-gen" fool a new one because he could be working with him the next second. I mean...seriously...when is the last time you've ever heard a developer straight up slam another studio of reputes' games or design theory? You don't. Plus, Obsidian probably wants a "united front" towards the more "profitable sector" they seem to be targeting (hello Alpha Protocol!).

I want it to be this, but I've a cold feeling that the multitude of wormtongues he's worked with have gotten him to drink the coolaid of "games should be movies with minipuzzles"

 

[Sodomy]

Vogel is a BIo fnaboy, though. Plus, his writing is dreadful. Codex only likes him because he makes turn based games.

So? Avellone is also a Bio fanboy (so far, Obsidian has made a name for themselves by creating sequels to Bio games, and Avellone seems to be fellating Mass Effect every chance he gets).

Um.. He's one of the bosses art Obsidian so I'm sure he LOTS of say for MOTB. And, he did some awesome stuff for FO2.

He claimed that he was only responsible for 2 characters, and the credits in the MoTB manual state that the leads were Kevin Saunders and George Ziets. Meanwhile, guess who was the creative lead for the OC? That's right, MCA was the creative lead for the vastly inferior game.

Agreed that the parts of FO2 that Avellone did (namely, New Reno) were the best parts of the game, but that still puts him at 3 for 6 of the games that he's worked on that I've played (I haven't played KOTOR2, so I can't comment there).

MCA is a great writer. one of the best in the industry for sure.

Agreed, he is a damn good writer; however, skills in one area of development shouldn't put him on par with people who have consistently been responsible for a greater part of the development of games that have consistently been better. I'd rather play a better game with more choices and less railroading with "normal" quality writing than a JRPG written by Shakespeare himself.

"Tim Cain,"

Overrated because of 1 game whose writing wans't that good. And, FAILED when he was his own boss.

4 games- Fallout, Arcanum, ToEE, and VTM:B. None of them may have had writing of the quality of what MCA may have done, but 2 of those were better games than PS:T, and all 4 were better than the NWN2 OC or IWD2.

", Richard Garriot,"

He's adventure games right? Meh.

Ultima series.

" the guys who did PtD"

Whatever.

1 for 1 is a pretty damn good record (and PtD is better than PS:T).

", and, hell, even Jeff Voegel"

L0L0L0L0L0L0L0LOLLIP0P

He may not be a visionary, and he may just pump out the same 2 games over and over, but his track record is a lot more consistent than MCA's. Plus, the first 2 Geneforges are better than anything MCA ever worked on, even if the writing isn't as good.

"are/were able to create quality far more consistently."

Did you nmean consistently out of work/losing bussiness? Consistently doing sequel after sequel after sequel?

HAHAHA!

No, I mean that if you look at their ratio of good games/bad games, they come out a lot better than MCA. I don't really much care about how much money they make, otherwise I'd be an EA fanboy.

 

[Fat Dragon]

4 games- Fallout, Arcanum, ToEE, and VTM:B. None of them may have had writing of the quality of what MCA may have done, but 2 of those were better games than PS:T, and all 4 were better than the NWN2 OC or IWD2.

Wasn't Mitsoda a lead writer for a couple of Troika's games (I think it was Bloodlines and maybe another one)? He's pretty damned good too.

 

[butsomuch]

Meanwhile, guess who was the creative lead for the OC? That's right, MCA was the creative lead for the vastly inferior game.

I don't think MCA was the creative lead on NWN2. He wrote all the companions and all the major characters as the Senior Designer but NWN2 story was written by Ferret Baudoin, the Lead Designer.

Anthony Davis on NWN2 team

The original story concept for NWN2:OC was created by Ferret Baoudoin and approved by WoTC. Various characters, dialogs, and plot elements were written and fleshed out by the other designers, including Ferret, Chris Avellone, Eric Fenstermaker, Jeff Husges, Tony Evans, Matt Mclean, Constant Gaw, John Lee, George Zeits, and a couple more who I can't think of at the moment...

Another example, Chris Avellone wrote and fleshed out party companions, while George Zeits created the back story for the King of Shadows...

As Creative Director, Chris Avellone is involved in every project we work on in some fashion or another.

 

[Sodomy]

Are "Creative Director" and "Creative Lead" not effectively the same title? If they are, look on pages 175 and 179 of the NWN2 Gold manual. Note that NWN2 OC has a "creative director" but no "creative lead", and MOTB has no "creative director" but a "creative lead", making it even more likely that the two terms are pretty much synonymous.

Either way, every party companion is a lot more than he did for MOTB, where he only handled Gaan and Kaelyn.

 

[cardtrick]

MCA is a great writer. one of the best in the industry for sure.

Agreed, he is a damn good writer; however, skills in one area of development shouldn't put him on par with people who have consistently been responsible for a greater part of the development of games that have consistently been better. I'd rather play a better game with more choices and less railroading with "normal" quality writing than a JRPG written by Shakespeare himself.

Since when do people idolize Avellone for anything but his writing? I disagree with your thesis that skills in one area of development should disqualify someone for elevation into the game developer pantheon. All developers have their skillset, certainly including the ones you listed. Cain was good at settings and choices, Garriot at innovation and interactivity, Boyarsky at art design, the PtD guys at bugs (kidding, I love PtD), and Vogel at . . . er, nothing really, as far as I can see, beyond sheer bullheaded determination and tenacity.

Avellone's skills are in writing and characterization. He has other skills as well, of course, but these are his chief ones -- and in at least a couple of cases, they've been enough to push games hampered by tragically bad design in other areas into the "masterpiece" category. At least for me, good writing is one of the few elements of a game that can singlehandedly save it from mediocrity. Cases in point: PST, MOTB, VTMB, Anachronox, etc.

It doesn't mean that every game he makes will be brilliant, or that all his thoughts on design are right -- but it means his games are worth looking at, and that there's usually going to be something of value even in the worst ones (yes, including NWN2).

But as for why he's so revered here and in other fan circles . . . I think it's pretty obvious. Sure, his game design skills are part of it, but it's mostly the fact that he's made himself one of the game industry's "personalities". He hasn't reached the point where marketers would advertise "Chris Avellone's Planescape: Torment 2", but he's heading that way. He makes himself a personality, and becomes the face of the game he works on, by reguarly accepting interview requests, occasionally saying controversial things, having a sense of humor, writing a blog, doing those cartoons, posting on forums, etc. So we've got a guy who we can see as a person, and who's been involved in some games we love, and is it any wonder that he becomes a little larger than life in the fan community? Compare this to Mitsoda or Ziets -- they seem extremely talented, and they've been involved with some great games, but we know very little about them and don't have any sense of them as people. (Plus, this is the internet. The fact that Avellone is actually kind of photogenic and therefore a pretty easily enviable figure has to be part of it.)

 

[butsomuch]

Are "Creative Director" and "Creative Lead" not effectively the same title? If they are, look on pages 175 and 179 of the NWN2 Gold manual. Note that NWN2 OC has a "creative director" but no "creative lead", and MOTB has no "creative director" but a "creative lead", making it even more likely that the two terms are pretty much synonymous.

See MCA's LinkedIn Profile

 

[Sodomy]

Since when do people idolize Avellone for anything but his writing? I disagree with your thesis that skills in one area of development should disqualify someone for elevation into the game developer pantheon. All developers have their skillset, certainly including the ones you listed. Cain was good at settings and choices, Garriot at innovation and interactivity, Boyarsky at art design, the PtD guys at bugs (kidding, I love PtD), and Vogel at . . . er, nothing really, as far as I can see, beyond sheer bullheaded determination and tenacity.

Fair enough; however, I would argue that some of these abilities (namely, setting, C&C, and interactivity) are more important for the RPG genre as envisioned by this website than quality of writing; therefore, it would make sense if the people who were superior at those factors were praised more.

It doesn't mean that every game he makes will be brilliant, or that all his thoughts on design are right -- but it means his games are worth looking at, and that there's usually going to be something of value even in the worst ones (yes, including NWN2).

I'm going to have to ask what this "something of value" in NWN2's OC is. Because, even though it's a reasonably entertaining fantasy romp with shitty combat, it does nothing particularly well (including the part that MCA was responsible for- the NPC followers).

But as for why he's so revered here and in other fan circles . . . I think it's pretty obvious. Sure, his game design skills are part of it, but it's mostly the fact that he's made himself one of the game industry's "personalities". He hasn't reached the point where marketers would advertise "Chris Avellone's Planescape: Torment 2", but he's heading that way. He makes himself a personality, and becomes the face of the game he works on, by reguarly accepting interview requests, occasionally saying controversial things, having a sense of humor, writing a blog, doing those cartoons, posting on forums, etc. So we've got a guy who we can see as a person, and who's been involved in some games we love, and is it any wonder that he becomes a little larger than life in the fan community? Compare this to Mitsoda or Ziets -- they seem extremely talented, and they've been involved with some great games, but we know very little about them and don't have any sense of them as people. (Plus, this is the internet. The fact that Avellone is actually kind of photogenic and therefore a pretty easily enviable figure has to be part of it.)

I would argue that it's foolish to deify someone based on their personality, rather than their track record- but, then again, I guess I'm not most of the internet.

 

[cardtrick]

Hey, that's cool. I didn't know he went to Thomas Jefferson . . . they used to be our big competition in all the geeky shit I did in high school (American Computer Science League, physics competitions, etc.). I've never really looked at LinkedIn much, but it's pretty interesting what you can learn.

EDIT: Ha, I wrote this before Sodomy's post. But I think I'm going to let it sit here anyway, because I like the irony.

 

[spiwak]

Let's be completely honest here...he works in the industry.[/url]
The end.

When you consider how the RPG genre as a whole is going, Obsidian is still mostly a bright spot that I think a good number of us hope will become more than a poor man's Bioware. These next couple projects will really be the test, and I still think it's highly possible they won't suck, might even be pretty good.

But, ultimately, the failure is the game industry's. Games these days have to have mainstream appeal to justify the outrageous costs, so naturally complexity and riskiness drop.

 

[Sodomy]

When you consider how the RPG genre as a whole is going, Obsidian is still mostly a bright spot that I think a good number of us hope will become more than a poor man's Bioware. These next couple projects will really be the test, and I still think it's highly possible they won't suck, might even be pretty good.

Does anyone seriously think that MoTB was anything other than an exception? AP is obviously geared to be a dumbed-down lowest common denominator game, Aliens is going to be an ARPG, and, despite the devs invoking Fallout's name, we've seen no reason to think that Storm of Zehir will be anthing but BG1 where you can choose which party member does the talking.

 

[spiwak]

Their track record so far:

One pretty good but unfinished game.
One shitty game.
One good expansion.

That's still only one shitty game out of three, way I see it.

 

[Xor]

Yeah, but NWN2 was really shitty. I was pissed when I saw how much of a step back it was from NWN1, gameplay-wise.

The story was a little better, but the OC wasn't very polished.

Of course, MotB makes NWN2 worth owning, and SoZ is sounding better and better.

 

[Murk]

NWN 2 the shitty game? I wouldn't call it shitty, it wasn't a BAD game i'd say, just not a good one.

 

[Gnidrologist]

RPGs is the shittiest genre. That's why Codex loves it. Loads to bitch about.

 

[Sodomy]

I like how now that MoTB has come out, people are attempting to justify KOTOR2 and the NWN2 OC. Admittedly, I've never played KOTOR2, but even when it was Obsidian's only game, people were bashing them as being Bio part 2. Now that they've released one good game, everyone is revising their opinion, in order to keep the hope up and make it look like Obsidian is anything other than a mediocre company that got lucky once.

 

[SpaceKungFuMan]

I like how now that MoTB has come out, people are attempting to justify KOTOR2 and the NWN2 OC. Admittedly, I've never played KOTOR2, but even when it was Obsidian's only game, people were bashing them as being Bio part 2. Now that they've released one good game, everyone is revising their opinion, in order to keep the hope up and make it look like Obsidian is anything other than a mediocre company that got lucky once.

A lot of people here were very vocal in their distaste for KOTOR2, but a lot of people have liked it from the start too. And given how popular posts on the KOTOR2 restoration mod are, I think its safe to say the codex has not been entirely hostile to the game. At the very least, most people here seem to agree (and has always agreed) that despite the game's incompleteness it was better than KOTOR 1 in nearly every respect. And if you count the originally intended Torment like ending as part of the game, then I'd guess most people here would be big fans.

NWN2 OC is a different story. It was a mess in a lot of ways, but a lot of that seemed to come from how much time was put into the engine vs the game. In this very interview MCA says MOTB was their best work specifically because they didn't have to retrofit an old BIO engine. Noone is saying that Obsidian has a spotless track record, but not even Black Isle did. Troika may be the only company that only made great games (albeit buggy), but in the current landscape, who do we have but Obsidian? Other companies have the occasional good game coming out, but Obsidian is the last standard bearer for Black Isle in many ways, and I don't think they're doing a bad job at all of carrying that banner.

 

[Sodomy]

but in the current landscape, who do we have but Obsidian? Other companies have the occasional good game coming out, but Obsidian is the last standard bearer for Black Isle in many ways, and I don't think they're doing a bad job at all of carrying that banner.

They may be the best in the mainstream right now (although I could see someone making an argument for PB or CD Projekt); however, as long as Spiderweb continues the Geneforge series (that is to say, for one more game), they're doing quite a bit better than Obsidian.

 

[Azrael the cat]

NWN 2 the shitty game? I wouldn't call it shitty, it wasn't a BAD game i'd say, just not a good one.

I actually really liked NWN2 - it wasn't FO or VTM:B or BG2 or wasteland or Wiz8 or MoTB, but it had good party mechanics and delivered the game that I expected to get, at a time when NO-ONE was making party-based rpgs in the mainstream market. There's a tendency in these parts to say that everything is either a work of genius or utter shite, but for me at least NWN2 was a solid B, B- at worst.

And it sold well, which enabled MoTB to be made. Thing is - if NWN2 had sales typical of MoTB, and reviews typical of MoTB - Obsidian would never had the opportunity to make MoTB. And I don't doubt or begrudge that they will make mainly action rpgs in the future - ultimately they are a mainstream professional company that needs to make money. Their aim is NOT to make the greatest game that they can - the days of Origin are gone and won't return until the market hits maturity and segments. Until that point the best a small to medium studio can do is make the best game that is a safe prospect and sells well, while leaving big innovations to genuinely small indies and major developers like EA that can fund experimental projects (not that they often do that, but they have the economic capability to do so - however, it's also probably in their interests NOT to encourage the market to hit its segmentation point). Which means that Obsidian, and studios like them, will go somewhat where the market goes - at best they might be making slightly more rpgish and slightly more intelligent games than most, but if the market is aiming at retards then the best that they'll do is target the kids who are only mildly stupid.

 

[Balor]

I like how now that MoTB has come out, people are attempting to justify KOTOR2 and the NWN2 OC. Admittedly, I've never played KOTOR2, but even when it was Obsidian's only game, people were bashing them as being Bio part 2. Now that they've released one good game, everyone is revising their opinion, in order to keep the hope up and make it look like Obsidian is anything other than a mediocre company that got lucky once.

Well, they were bashing it due to overly easy combat and generally being 90% finished. (And those last 10% usually 90% of time to fix properly, you know).

If you actually read Codex, you should have noticed 'Kotor2 is teh bestest RPG evar' threads cropping up here and there... mostly by Jasede and your truly (no, it does not make me a furfaggot ), but lots of other people liked it as well. And you cannot help by LOVE it when you read the epic Scorchy's LP thread, where he does not only play it, but shows off cut content.

Nwn2 is where mediocrity lies, IMO. But, again, it's mostly due to TOO MUCH combat. Boring combat. I'm still gathering strength to complete it due to some juicy bits in the end and middle.

Anyway, I kinda agree with MCA. After all, ADDING come optional combat and actually making it interesting would make the game MORE of an RPG (choices!), and better game in general.
However, that's in a perfect world. In real world resources allocated to 'hawt akshun' would be drawn from story and dialogues - something you cannot have too much of.
Of course, stupid console fanboys who hate to read might disagree, but I politely ask them to disappear up their own asshole.

 

[Volourn]

"Troika may be the only company that only made great games (albeit buggy),"

Did you play TOEE. outside of a greta combat SYSTEM (combat itself was on the poor side); it was a horrible game.

Eeven Arcanum which i really like, and BL which is awesome have major weaknesses. BL's is combat. Horrible, horrible combat.

 

[Sodomy]

If you actually read Codex, you should have noticed 'Kotor2 is teh bestest RPG evar' threads cropping up here and there... mostly by Jasede and your truly (no, it does not make me a furfaggot ), but lots of other people liked it as well. And you cannot help by LOVE it when you read the epic Scorchy's LP thread, where he does not only play it, but shows off cut content.

Those threads have only been coming up recently- after MoTB made everyone <3 Obsidian and forget that their early efforts weren't that good. Before MoTB, people were calling Obsidian the new Bioware, with a select few people defending them, claiming that KOTOR2 was an unfinished PS:T.

Nwn2 is where mediocrity lies, IMO. But, again, it's mostly due to TOO MUCH combat. Boring combat. I'm still gathering strength to complete it due to some juicy bits in the end and middle.

What juicy bits? The trial with no consequences? The castle management where even if you run it into the ground, the siege segments still behave identically? The endless, shitty dungeons? The one consequence in the entire game is

Spoiler

which party members turn on you in the second to last fight

, so if you're expecting some RPG goodness in the late game, there's no reason to bother.

 

[Xor]

NWN 2 the shitty game? I wouldn't call it shitty, it wasn't a BAD game i'd say, just not a good one.

*Several user interface features missing from NWN1
*Stupid user interface design (I want to wait 2 seconds for the popup menu when I right click. I want to click confirm...every...time...I...sell...something.)
*Boring gameplay, aside from a few interesting scenes.
*No consequences for anything (I won the trial! Hurray. Wait, now I have to fight this dude anyway?)
*Horrible NPCs. Sandra was probably the only one with decent writing.
*Many graphics problems.
*Poor story planning. The game is fucking boring until act 2.


The keep was entertaining, but building it up had pretty much no effect on gameplay.

It did pick up during act 2, most of the act kept me entertained. I wasn't sure what was going to happen next. For example,

Spoiler

I totally didn't see the attack on the knighting ceremony coming. In fact, I got my ass kicked because I tried to fight the flaming-skull-guys without any buffs or my sword.

Chapter 3 was basically battle after boring battle. I stopped caring by the end and just cheated my way through the last dungeon.

Also, I was pissed because I spent the entire game sucking up to neeshka

Spoiler

and the bitch still betrayed me in the last fight. What the fuck?

The ending was fine, sometimes things don't end happily.

 

[Murk]

I wasn't going in to the game expecting much - i was pretty disappointed with NWN 1 so figured NWN 2 would be somewhere between NWN1 and KotOR 1 and i was more or less happy with the result

I'm replaying it now as a bardbarian, and having a decent time - if you can look aside the long load times, it's an alright game - albeit very linear at first