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[Vaarna_Aarne]

Tell me, do you know what this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3orQKBxiEg

Oh please....

At this point I'm happy to inform you that the comic it's based on is regarded as one of the 100 best works of literature in the 20th century (so they better not fuck it up). And that that design was fucked with:

(Only the blue guy has superpowers anyway)

I'm talking about movies, not comic books. Never read them, but in general I'm not a fan of comic books.
Anyway I doubt any story featuring some guy in spandex costume and a cloak would appeal to me, no matter what the presentation was.

So what is it with a costume being too "unrealistic" but sci-fi and super-spies not?

 

[Solohk]

Ahhh Watchmen. Brilliant story. Can't see how the movie won't fuck it all up.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Ahhh Watchmen. Brilliant story. Can't see how the movie won't fuck it all up.

Indeed. The last leaked script was fucking horrible. In the end Nite Owl killed Ozymandias because "that's what Rorschach would have done."

Disgusting. Hopefully Snyder is as big of a fanboy he claims to be and changes NOTHING.

By the way, what's your favourite part of it? To me it's either Rorschach's story to Malcolm or Doctor Manhattan and Laurie on Mars.

 

[Suchy]

So what is it with a costume being too "unrealistic" but sci-fi and super-spies not?

It's not even about realism, if I cared so much about it, I'd only watch 2001 Space Odyssey.
It simply looks idiotic. Spandex/muscle shaped body armor+obligatory cloak... Yup, delivers the lol wut.
90% of sci-fi movies are pure crap anyway and those that aren't usually don't show any "special" supercostumes.

This shot alone makes me pass on this movie:

Also it's not only about the costumes, the whole thing about some übermensch doing some überthings with his überpowers simply doesn't appel to me.

 

[Dorf]

Watchmen movie

[ SPOILER ALERT!!!]
I have always been an avid reader but never really got into comics, or "graphic novels" but I did read "The Watchmen" after my buddy gave it to me for my birthday. I have to agree the overall story is very interesting and I really liked how history is altered and it gives a new perspective as to what today would look like, though I think it was way too pestimistic and almost misanthropic at times. There were only a couple things that I didn't like about the "The Watchmen".

1. The concurrent story within a story about the man who is a drift at sea. His story was mearly adding a parable that I thought was pretty obvious already so I pretty much skipped through when it dropped into that part. Not really a big deal, though the news stand guy really got annoying over time constantly complaining and bitching. People in real life like that irritate the fuck out of me so reading them is just about as bad.

2. The ending. Completely and totally retarded and utterly dumb. The entire premise of Mr. Metropolis's plan is completely inane and abusrb, and the fact that it is supported by the only true "god" like character in the story makes it even worse. I'm sorry but teleporting a gigantic fake alien octopus thing into downtown NY which releases some physcic energy that kills a few million people WILL NOT bring about world peace. Fucking puh-leeze. Hell, the threat of global terrorism hasn't brought about world peace, why the fuck would the threat of alien invasion be any different? It wouldn't.

The author throughout the book is basically sayingt that there is no good/evil or right/wrong. There is only war and peace, and it doesn't matter if you become the evil you are trying to destroy as long as there is peace in the end, and whatever means you need to take to achieve that peace is okay. In essence it's the old saying of " the end justifies the means", but anyone with a conscious and morals knows this is patently false.

I get the feeling the author was a real believer in nihilism.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

So what is it with a costume being too "unrealistic" but sci-fi and super-spies not?

Also it's not only about the costumes, the whole thing about some übermensch doing some überthings with his überpowers simply doesn't appel to me.

Which actually isn't what the Watchmen is about. Or Kingdom Come. Or Top 10. Or Sandman. Or pretty much 90% of the quality superhero stories.

Dark Knight Returns is to an extent, but part of Batman's concept is that Batman is more super than, say, Superman (who's actually an Everyman type) despite not being able to bend steel with his bare hands or fly. However, the focus is more on that what kind of a man would be obsessed with waging a personal crusade against all crime. A similar thing that the Watchmen has, except this time it's about WHY would ordinary people dress up in masks.

Your hatred of costumes is still a bit baffling.

 

[DefJam101]

It simply looks idiotic. Spandex/muscle shaped body armor+obligatory cloak... Yup, delivers the lol wut.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It simply looks idiotic. Spandex/muscle shaped body armor+obligatory cloak... Yup, delivers the lol wut.

I *loathe* these XTREME 90's comic books.

[ SPOILER ALERT!!!]

Actually I think you missed a point in the ending (and by the way, you missed a lot of the inner landscape of quite a few characters with that pirate comic). The entire point was for you to try and think what YOU would do in that situation (and whether or not Ozymandias solved anything in the long run...). Could you judge the events in that situation (you also have the difference in that you KNEW the people lying dead).

Now, as for Alan Moore himself... It might surprise you that he's very much a humanist and believes in the possibility goodness of human beings and the choice between right and wrong... He specifically thinks Superman is the greatest superhero because of the fact that he can do everything, but won't. The fact he writes nihilistic works is part of the realistic outlook he still has on events of the world. And most of all... "This is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?"

 

[Dorf]

Actually I think you missed a point in the ending (and by the way, you missed a lot of the inner landscape of quite a few characters with that pirate comic). The entire point was for you to try and think what YOU would do in that situation (and whether or not Ozymandias solved anything in the long run...). Could you judge the events in that situation (you also have the difference in that you KNEW the people lying dead).

Now, as for Alan Moore himself... It might surprise you that he's very much a humanist and believes in the possibility goodness of human beings and the choice between right and wrong... He specifically thinks Superman is the greatest superhero because of the fact that he can do everything, but won't. The fact he writes nihilistic works is part of the realistic outlook he still has on events of the world. And most of all... "This is an imaginary story. Aren't they all?"

Whoops I mixed up Mr. Metropolis and Ozymandias. My bad.

No, I didn't miss the point. The pirate story was a parable to the main story and Ozymandias, which you don't realize until the ending, but I still feel it was unneccessary, atleast for me.

As for judging the events, ah, that was what I did in my post. I judged the characters, the motivations, and actions and I called bullshit. No sane person would think that Ozymandias's "evil master plan for world peace" would really work but the author goes out of his way to explain the rational of Ozymandias. Sure, you could maybe argue that "okay, he is just really insane to the point that he doesn't really know he is batshit nuts", but then Dr M. who has probably been the most reasoned and rational person, to an almost cold detached level, in the entire story chimes in and agrees with him. At that point I was like, WTF? Hell, even Nite-owl and girlfriend agree with the both of them and decide that rather than try and save a couple million people they are going to nip off for some sex instead. Hell, it doesn't even bother Nite-Owl guy that Dr. M kills Rorschach for trying to stop Ozymandias from murdering a few million people. Not to mention he has already killed several hundred up to this point.

The Watchmen was character driven and well written all the way right up to the end where I can only explain the ending as some bizzare predilection to nihilism and misanthropy. I mean to actually believe that by killing millions of people and teleporting a gigantic fake ocotpus looking alien into NY you are going to suddenly convince world leaders who's political, ethical, moral, and cultural attitutdes run counter to each other that suddenly they need to trust each other and work together in peace and harmony to fight an alien enemy that might invade your planet, is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard in my entire life. AND the mere fact that pretty much all the main characters walk lock in step with this inane idea is not just fucking tragic, its down right malthusian when the one character who sees this insane plot for the sick twist evil that it is and tries to do something to stop it is killed by Dr. M and not even Rorschach's friend Nite-Owl lifts a finger to save him, but instead steps out with his girl to get laid.

It's a horrible ending and I couldn't have been worse if a car load of midget clowns had showed up out of the blue and the next panel said, "The End".

So, I hope they change the ending.

Dorf

 

[Solohk]

By the way, what's your favourite part of it? To me it's either Rorschach's story to Malcolm or Doctor Manhattan and Laurie on Mars.

I liked how it tried to answer the question of what type of person would actually try and be a "masked vigilante". I thought Rorschach was most interesting as a racist sociopath makes sense for this crazy masked crime fighting he's doing. All the other characters are also flawed in some way.

I also liked Dr. Manhattan and how he perceives time.

Finally, I did like the ending, even though I'll agree with Dorf that the actual plan to unite the world (fake alien) was a little... silly. Still, I liked how Ozmandias was making the kill 1 to save 100 argument, Manhattan agrees with the logic, and won't let Rorschach fuck it up.

 

[sportforredneck]

Those who thinks Watchmen's ending sucked should not be allowed to live.

 

[DefJam101]

I *loathe* these XTREME 90's comic books.

I actually like The Darkness, but it is postmodern and has a shitty game based on it so it MUST BE PUT TO DEATH.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

But Manhattan agreed on letting the thing go unnoticed because of what it already had accomplished that moment. To him the illogical thing would have been to destroy what Ozymandias had accomplished. The impending war had vanished. (also, Nite Owl didn't know what happened to Rorschach then) Manhattan killed Rorschach because Rorschach's actions might have returned the problem (which might return anyway, as Manhattan hints at when he leaves and that last frame). The millions were dead, peace was imminent. Whatever they would have done would have made all those millions of deaths meaningless. Even The Comedian was broken by this dilemma.

As for an outside threat uniting the staunchest enemies... Even the North Koreans expressed their condolances for 9/11 and then we have instances like World War II. There isn't an ethical or cultural attitude that can ignore the death of millions of people caused by something great enough outside of the two parties involved. The amount of death caused by Ozymandias' plan was larger than anything in human history. Not even the atomic bombs did something like that. But, you have to remember how a similar crisis ended (Cuba)...

And I don't think you can simplify Ozymandias' plan as being evil. The plan was logical and to some a reasonable solution to stop the extinction of the human race in nuclear holocaust. And most of all... Ozymandias wasn't crazy at all.

The very beauty of the ending is the sense of powerlessness and inevitability. Is it possible for a story about tragic individuals like those of the Watchmen to end happily?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

By the way, what's your favourite part of it? To me it's either Rorschach's story to Malcolm or Doctor Manhattan and Laurie on Mars.

I liked how it tried to answer the question of what type of person would actually try and be a "masked vigilante". I thought Rorschach was most interesting as a racist sociopath makes sense for this crazy masked crime fighting he's doing. All the other characters are also flawed in some way.

I also liked Dr. Manhattan and how he perceives time.

Finally, I did like the ending, even though I'll agree with Dorf that the actual plan to unite the world (fake alien) was a little... silly. Still, I liked how Ozmandias was making the kill 1 to save 100 argument, Manhattan agrees with the logic, and won't let Rorschach fuck it up.

Actually an interesting part is that Nite Owl 1 was a genuinely heroic person.

And how Rorschach grew as a person during the story and how he himself doesn't really approve of the things he says he approves of. Remember how he originally spoke of the atomic bombs?