Editorial More of Avellone's Morals: What is evil?

[Mareus]

Funny how you avoid mentioning MotB. Obsidian made at least one brilliant RPG (don't know yet about K2). Bioware made... what?

Bioware made BG trilogy, which is 2 awsome games and 1 awsome expansion.

Except it isn't.

You have anything to back that up?

 

[Lumpy]

Funny how you avoid mentioning MotB. Obsidian made at least one brilliant RPG (don't know yet about K2). Bioware made... what?

Bioware made BG trilogy, which is 2 awsome games and 1 awsome expansion.

Except it isn't.

You have anything to back that up?

Report to the nearest "Why BG I/II sucks" thread.
But as a summary:
BG1: Completely soulless NPCs, all of them less interesting than the fucking zombies in PS:T's Mortuary. The party members have about 3 lines of dialogue each. Quests in the first part of the game are all, without exception, a variation of "Kill x creatures and retrieve item y from them". Absolutely retarded main plot - the evil company wants to shut down a mine. What does it do? No, it doesn't blow it up, or kill the miners, but rather it wastes amazing amounts of man-power to stealthily poison every single piece of ore mined from there.
(By the way. When I started playing BG1, I thought "This seems to be like PS:T only in generic fantasy. I think it's going to be a pretty good game." I really wanted to enjoy it.)

 

[easychord]

I sure don't understand why some people spit shit on Bioware around here, when Bioware is one of the rare companies that still produces decent games.

Why do you care so much? There are plenty of other sites that you can go to that are populated by people who think that Bioware can do no wrong. It's not that hard to find people who think that the Baldur's Gate games are flawless masterpieces. It's not like you would actually listen to and accept my reasons if I told you what I didn't like about specific Bioware games. You would just go into defensive mode to protect the Bioware mothership.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Come on. Contrasts attract each other. That's the rule. He comes here for the possibility to bitch at people, who don't like he's favourite stuff. That's the sole purpose of internet - to tell other people they are wrong, remember?
Would anyone here enjoy visiting boards where everyone is in agreement, making teletubie-esk virtual hugs and sharing smiley faces?
That would be truly sick. :shock:

Btw, Mareus.
Ur opinion suck, cuz mine is better. Why i am not surprised?

 

[Gragt]

You can't compare Arie and Arieth with Kreia and Khelgar.

Yes I can, I just did.

 

[easychord]

A bit of Monty Python might be appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

 

[Mareus]

First of all I never said BG was flawless, and I apsolutelly never said Bioware is the best company out there. All I am saying is that Obsidian is not much better, if better at all. A lot of people here cheer at Chris like Obsidian made some of the best titles out there, but the fact remains they still haven't made a full game that would rock from beggining to end. Wheather you hate or love BG, it is one of the best RPG's out there from the first minute to the last, something both Kotor 2 and NWN2 have failed to do. Even Motb has it's share of flaws, and let's not forget it is only an expansion. So until Obsidian makes a FULL game that actually does not fall apart in the end, I will never understand people who praise Obsidian and spit shit on Bioware.

Also, for you Lumpy:
1.) BG characters are as bland as NWN2 characters.
2..) BG story is not dumb, because only an idiot would blow up a mine which he NEEDED to aquire healthy weapons to gain the trust of the BG council. Something you would understand if you played the game.
3.) BG dialogs may be a bit limited, especially when it comes to choices, but it offers more than enough quests which are far more varied than what you described. Something you would also know if you actually played the game.

Furthermore I really do not understand people who cut out the bad parts and make a big deal out of it, while completely forgetting the game as a whole. So yes, BG has it's share of flaws. It is certainly no PST, but it offers a lot more than NWN2 or Kotor 2.

 

[Mareus]

Btw, Mareus.
Ur opinion suck, cuz mine is better. Why i am not surprised?

You know what people say about oppinions? They are like assholes. Everyone has one.

That is why I never speak with oppinions. I always talk with arguments. Something some codexers should learn to practice more often, instead of practicing insults and sarcasm.

 

[Mareus]

I sure don't understand why some people spit shit on Bioware around here, when Bioware is one of the rare companies that still produces decent games.

Why do you care so much? There are plenty of other sites that you can go to that are populated by people who think that Bioware can do no wrong. It's not that hard to find people who think that the Baldur's Gate games are flawless masterpieces. It's not like you would actually listen to and accept my reasons if I told you what I didn't like about specific Bioware games. You would just go into defensive mode to protect the Bioware mothership.

Why do you care if I defend Bioware. There are a lot of sites for people who instead of a good argument would rather exchange fluffy, fluffy hug buns and purple, jolly rolly smileys. So why don't you go there and have a fluffy, fluffy fun time.

 

[Lumpy]

Also, for you Lumpy:
1.) BG characters are as bland as NWN2 characters.
2..) BG story is not dumb, because only an idiot would blow up a mine which he NEEDED to aquire healthy weapons to gain the trust of the BG council. Something you would understand if you played the game.
3.) BG dialogs may be a bit limited, especially when it comes to choices, but it offers more than enough quests which are far more varied than what you described. Something you would also know if you actually played the game.

1) Okay. Who gives a fuck about NWN 2?
2) They didn't need the Nashkel Mines, they wanted to take it out of business in order to make their Ironwoods mine the only functioning one (because apparently, the whole Sword Coast has exactly two mines). Their method was retarded.
3) http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... 507#388507

Baldur's Gate sucks because these are some (read: most) of the quests in the first two towns:

- An Ogre and His Belts
There is an ogre here who has a belt fetish. Kill him and take the two
belts. The larger looking belt is the Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity
(changes your gender) and the smaller one is the Girdle of Piercing + 3 vs.
piercing. You may want to wait to do this until you have more than 2
people. If you want, you can return the Girdle of Piercing to its owner,
Unshey, in the Friendly Arm Inn (see that section below).
Ogre: Area S of Friendly Arm Inn (x 4787 y 1665)

- Landrin's Spiders
Landrin's house in Beregost has been overrun by spiders, and that is why
she is hiding in the Friendly Arm Inn. She gives you a bunch of antidotes
and promises a reward if you bring back the body of the spider, her
husband's boots, and some wine. Go to Beregost, and into the house by the
Jovial Juggler. Kill the spiders, and take the 3 items and return to
Landrin for your reward: for the boots (300 exp, 120gp), for the Spider
Body (200 exp, 100gp), and for the wine (300 exp, 75gp).
Landrin: Friendly Arm Inn, Third Floor (x 796 y 735)
Spiders: Beregost (x 3078 y 3416)

- Joia's Flamedance Ring
Hobgoblins north of the Inn have swiped Joia's flamedance ring. Kill them
to get it back. Joia is in the house just to the west of the outer gate in
the inner grounds. She won't give you anything, but you get 400 exp and
Rep + 1.
Hobgoblins: Friendly Arm Inn (x 2554 y 292)
Joia: Friendly Arm Inn (x 1536 y 2484)

- Mirianne's Letter
Just south of Beregost you will find two Ogrillons, and on one of their
bodies is a letter for a Mirianne, who lives in Beregost. Take her the
letter and she will give you a Ring of Protection + 1 and 300 exp.
Mirianne: Beregost (x 4804 y 2086)
Ogrillons: Area S of Beregost (x 3850 y 1460)

- Firebead Elvenhair's Book
You'll find Firebead in Beregost (he was also in Candlekeep while you were
there) and he wants you to pick a book up for him, the History of the
Fateful Coin. You can find it across the street in the Feldepost's Inn
(for 2gp). Give him the book and you get 300 exp, the History of the Dead
Three, and a Reputation + 1. (If he doesn't give you the subquest, you can
still complete it, just buy the book and give it to him as if he had)
Firebead: Beregost (x 2044 y 2905)
Feledepost's Inn: Beregost (x 1406 y 2640)

- Gurke's Cloak
The Dwarf Gurke, whom you can find in the Jovial Juggler Inn, has had his
cloak stolen from him by some Tasloi in the Cloakwood Forest. You will
find it semi-hidden under a tree. Take it and return to Gurke, who doesn't
actually want it anymore to get your reward: 300 exp, and you get to keep
the Cloak of Non-Detection.
Gurke: Beregost (x 3760 y 3627)
Cloak: Cloakwood Forest One (x 4391 y 3472)

- Bjornin's Half-Ogres
The Paladin Bjornin, who is recuperating in the Jovial Juggler Inn, was
beaten by some nasty Half-Ogres south south-west of Beregost. (Go south
twice, then west once) Go there and defeat all the Half-Ogres that you can
find, then return to Bjornin to get your reward: Medium Shield +1, 400
exp, Reputation +1
Bjornin: Beregost (x 3760 y 3627)

- Zhurlong's Boots
In the Burning Wizard Inn you will find a "pesky" thief named Zhurlong. He
was going about his business (stealing from people like you) and had his
Boots of Stealth stolen by some Hobgoblins. You can find these Hobgoblins
to the south of Beregost. Oh, and did I mention that he swipes gold from
you everytime you talk to him? Return the boots to get your gold back, and
to get a reward: 300 exp, 100gp (plus whatever he stole from you). Or you
could keep the boots, they are Boots of Stealth (stealth +35%). Or you
could give him the boots, then kill him and take the boots back, suffering
no loss in reputation.
Zhurlong: Beregost (x 2649 y 2030)
Hobgoblins: Area S of Beregost (x 1865 y 2449)

- Perdue's Short Sword (from Operador de Sala and edwardalacey)
You can find Perdue in the Red Sheaf Inn. A Gnoll has stolen his short
sword in High Hedge. Be careful when you talk to Perdue, because you can
easily lose this subquest. He tells you about a Dog Face and you have to
say to him if the Dog Face is a Gnoll. Give the sword to Perdue for your
reward: 50 gp and 500 exp.

The correct conversation thread is 1,2,1,1.

Perdue: Red Sheaf Inn (Beregost) (x 3273 y 2124)
Gnoll: High Hedge (W of Beregost) (x 3780 y 2818)

 

[kris]

Evil is when you laugh a diabolic laugh as you complete the same quests you would as a good guy.

And ask for a reward.

I am as much disturbed by how you seemingly can't decline awards, you get them even if you don't want them.

"I am really really poor and may die of starvation, but I have to give you this 10 gold/family heirloom even if you carries around a bag with 200.000 gold and told me you didn't want a reward." "I also don't care that you will sell my family heirloom to the merchant standing 5 meters next to me."

What they did with villians in Farscape is quite interesting routes.
Also, I think you could make a great roleplaying game from the Farscape concept by the way. a game were you play the character that have been thrown into a comlpetly new and very different galaxy/world and will have to co-operate with some fugitives/rebels/random aliens to survive.

 

[easychord]

Why do you care if I defend Bioware. There are a lot of sites for people who instead of a good argument would rather exchange fluffy, fluffy hug buns and purple, jolly rolly smileys. So why don't you go there and have a fluffy, fluffy fun time.

So the mystical quest to find out why some people arn't Bioware cheerleaders is over and you are mainly here to correct people who think that Obsidian games are better than Bioware games. That's fine.

 

[Mareus]

....BG Quests...

True, and I agree that the beggining of BG serves more as a way of gaining levels, then progressing the story, but that is just the begging of a +100 h long trilogy. I could coun't the same pointless quests that serve only for gaining XP in every RPG. Even in PST. The point is that BG is so huge that the few hours you will spend doing simple quests are nothing to what comes later.

 

[Mareus]

Why do you care if I defend Bioware. There are a lot of sites for people who instead of a good argument would rather exchange fluffy, fluffy hug buns and purple, jolly rolly smileys. So why don't you go there and have a fluffy, fluffy fun time.

So the mystical quest to find out why some people arn't Bioware cheerleaders is over and you are mainly here to correct people who think that Obsidian games are better than Bioware games. That's fine.

I just hate it when people have double standards. For me NWN2 is better than NWN1. I don't give a shit if NWN1 was made by Bioware.

 

[Lumpy]

I could coun't the same pointless quests that serve only for gaining XP in every RPG. Even in PST.

Please do. I can't remember any such quests in PS:T.

Mortuary Quests
Find "Pharod"
Find your missing journal
Fetch Embalming Fluid and Needle for Ei-Vene
Fetch Embalming Key for Vaxis

NorthEast Hive Quests
Help Sev'Tai get her revenge
Find Craddock for Baen the Sender
Find a way to help Ingress
Free Angyar from his Dead Contract and return it to him and his wife
Look into the matter of the mausoleum's walking dead
Defeat the intruder in the Mausoleum for the Guardian Spirit
Find the "source" of Pharod's bodies for Emoric
Talk to Norochj for Emoric, and do what Norochj asks of you
Track down a thief disguised as a Dustman
Speak to Awaiting Death on behalf of Emoric
Speak to Sere on behalf of Emoric
Find Soego for Emoric
Go to cathedral located at the center of the Hive

SouthEast Hive Quests
Resolve bar tab
Deliver box to Brasken

SouthWest Hive Quests
Find Jhelai for Craddock
Remove Reekwind's "curse of stench"
Find a tombstone for the Crier of Es-Annon
Kill the wererat in Phineas' basement
Deliver box to Shilandra
Find a gardner who has Mebbeth's herbs
Find Meir'am, get the ink for Mebbeth
Deliver ink to Mebbeth

NorthWest Hive Quests
Retrieve Porphiron's necklace
Get rid of Nestor for Arlo, the Flophouse Slumlord
Find Nestor's fork
Deliver box to Ku'atraa

 

[easychord]

I just hate it when people have double standards. For me NWN2 is better than NWN1. I don't give a shit if NWN1 was made by Bioware.

So you are objecting to people thinking that Obsidian made a better KotOR and that Baldur's Gate gets a harder ride than NWN2?

I don't see any double standards in preferring KotOR 2 even if there are hordes of people who would have it the other way. That choice is all about what flaws you can forgive and which qualities you prefer.

Baldur's Gate 2 had some really good points and NWN2 had some really bad spots. I probably prefer BG2. I think that it is Bioware's best RPG by far but it's not really a night and day sort of choice. Baldur's Gate 1 and Throne of Bhaal? Sorry, that's where you lose me. Neither were especially good to me and my singular standards tell me that I enjoyed NWN2 more, warts and all.

 

[Gnidrologist]

That is why I never speak with oppinions. I always talk with arguments.

 

[Unradscorpion]

- Mareus talks about how much 2D is better than 3D
- FFVII is one of his favorite games.
- He talks about the 'Game as whole'
- Is rabidly defending Biowares old games.
- He says he never speaks with opinions.

From this we can see that he is just nostalgic and doesn't care about your arguments people, he had a blast playing those games when he played them and NPCs are like a second family to him.
He is beyond reason.

 

[Mareus]

Yeah I am nostalgic, but I played NWN2, BG trilogy and PST recently, so I do not think nostalgia is effecting my senses. Anyway you wanted PST quests where you have simple fetch and kill quests. Truth is, if you checked the quests, you have many easy ones, but unfortunately I do not have a resource to copy/paste such quests and I can only talk from my memory. I remember in the mortuary you had to bring the bandages to some tiefling chick. Pretty simple. Often you had a quest where you needed to kill someone. Find something and bring it back like with Pharod. I also remember you had a quest that made you running across Sigil with some kind of dangerous cage ( i never dared opening it, and I never use save/load strategy because of RPing). Truth is also though that most of those quests could have been solved in atleast two ways, something BG often lacks, still no one can say those quests were complex, which was my whole point.

FFVII is one of my favorite games, so what?

I talk about games as a whole, because you can't just take out one segment of the game, say it sucks and spit shit on the whole game just because of it. It would be like saying PST sucks just because you can play only the nameless one. BG trilogy offered great music, good characters, great story, great quests, epic feeling like no other game, multiple endings, multiple ways of playing the game, great battles, best romances I have ever seen in a game with quests that are directly linked to the romance choices, huge world and incredible ammunt of items, weapons, armor. Those ar facts, and it just because BG does not have so many dialoge options, or it does not base itself so much on choices and consequenses does not make it a bad game. And one more thing. BG1, BG2 and BG Throne of Bhall should be looked as one whole game because the story is interwened and connected just like Lord of the Rings is connected. But no one is talking about LOTR 1,2,3, everyone just says LOTR. Its the same with BG, especially now with all the mods out there that make the game really feel like one game.

I am not defending old Bioware games, I am just trying to see where do some people come up with shit like: Obsidian is the best, Bioware sucks.

 

[easychord]

And one more thing. BG1, BG2 and BG Throne of Bhall should be looked as one whole game because the story is interwened and connected just like Lord of the Rings is connected.

In that case I prefer NWN2 to BG Saga. I was pretty sure that they sold BG2 to me as a stand alone game but oh well.

 

[Mareus]

And one more thing. BG1, BG2 and BG Throne of Bhall should be looked as one whole game because the story is interwened and connected just like Lord of the Rings is connected.

In that case I prefer NWN2 to BG Saga. I was pretty sure that they sold BG2 to me as a stand alone game but oh well.

Then you are an idiot who does not know shit about anything.

1. BG2 has a lot better story, much deeper and more complex. If you want to compare the story of NWN2 and BG2, may I remind some of you dweebs that in BG2 you also have a quest about the silver sword and the shards where the githyanki are all the time after you, but in BG2 it is just one of hundreds of subquests, while NWN2 makes the whole plot around it.
2. BG2 has 3 times more characters, of which some are 10 times more fun and better than NWN2 characters. Also the story of those characters advances much more naturally in BG2, than in NWN2, because in NWN2 you have to unlock certain things to be able to ask more questions, which I found very difficult for some characters even after 2 playthroughs, so you basically repeat the same questions over and over and you cannot do anything until you unlock the new character dialogs.
3. BG2 has 10 times better combat and gameplay because you do not have to fight with lousy commands and bad camera all the time.
4. The world of BG2 has is more beautiful, every dungeon and city looks differently. In NWN2 that is most certainly not the case.
5. BG2 is much less linear than NWN2, and offers better replayability, due to certain classes which unlock certain subquests which you otherwise would never discover.
6. Romances in BG2 are 100 times better handled. IN NWN2 you just have Elenee come to you and say: "I love you.", after which you say. "I love you too. Lets go to bed." WOW... that's the best romance dialog I have ever heard in a game
7. Everything that NWN2 has, BG2 has a lot more and most of the time it does it better.
8. NWN2 ending sucks completely when compared with BG2, and the more you come closer to the end of NWN2, the more you get the feeling the game was rushed.
9. NWN2 has more bugs.
10. BG2 offers a lot of mods that improve the game a lot.
11. BG2 main character is much more interesting than a stupid harborman which people can recognize by smell.
12. No other game makes you feel like a truly epic hero that is changing the world as does BG saga.
13. BG2 has 10 times better music.
14. NWN2 beggining is boring as hell and the plot has up and down moments, while BG saga is continually interesting from begining to the end.

The things that NWN2 does better:
1. It allows creation of weapons, armors, enchanting, etc.
2. The castle managment is 10 times better than the one you had in BG2(if you could even call it that)
3. The expansion MoTB is better then ToB, but I have to say that it doesn't feel so much like the continuation of the story as does ToB, because you lose all your things, and all the characters from the original. MotB feels more like a completely new game, while ToB is just the climax of BG saga story and it's ending.
4. NWN2 has more dialog options.
5. NWN2 has more character level up options.

Both games are very good, but BG2 wins by far in my book, and I think that people who spit shit on BG2 are actually just spitting shit on Bioware with no arguments.

 

[easychord]

Oh man, you saw the opening then you attacked. I'm humbled.

 

[Chefe]

If this is how the "best" of our developers define evil, I really need to get to work on finishing American Hare.

 

[Mareus]

Oh man, you saw the opening then you attacked. I'm humbled.

Wrong, you smurf faggot!! You should have said:
I yield to your superiour knowledge of gaming!

 

[Gnidrologist]

I think we have a winner for a ''Raging Nerd Of The Nerdrage'' award.