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Morrowind dungeons...

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Chefe said:
Woah, hold on there buddy...

Morrowind had dungeons?

Yeah, it did. You know, they were pretty obvious. And you even had to go into some for the main quests. You must be one of those XBox ADD freaks who couldn't bare walking slowly for ten minutes, so you switched off, never touched it again, and played Dead to Rights. Wow, I really feel sorry for you.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
My Morrowind didn't come with dungeons. It only had boring caves with boring crates and suicidal NPCs. Did these dungeons come with the GOTY version or something?

You must be one of those XBox ADD freaks

You can't be the real Tintin. The real Tintin is stupid and pretty clueless, but he isn't that stupid and clueless.
 

Magnus_1

Novice
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
9
I've been playing Dungeon Siege II recently (I'm bored) and there are several puzzles in it that involve finding a rock a putting it in the right hole. If that is what people think is needed in RPGs they should castrate themselves or something. Puzzles (as seen in RPGs) suck. Like a guy said earlier, puzzles in RPGs are just out of context. Puzzle games can be fun, but RPGs should not be puzzle games (that's why they're called role-paying games).
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Ah, The Office. What a masterwork. It'll get even better with age I suspect. Joyously good.

What I'd also like to see more of in dungeons, apart from puzzles (and not the find-the-lever variety) are well-fleshed-out dungeon denizens. Characters who've made their homes in there, or even communities. The opportunities for mini-UUWs or Arxs you would think should be attractive for designers and writers to flex some creative muscle with.
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
I'm not a big fan of puzzles in dungeons, but I don't mind the occasional riddle and I love secret doors. I also like anything that makes you have to closely observe your surroundings. I enjoyed the math riddles in Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra, where you had to count various items in a dungeon and then answer questions regarding those numbers. I really liked the dungeons in Dungeon Siege II. DS2 was just so much better than the original.
 

thomase

Novice
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
39
The point isn't that I literally want Myst-style puzzles, or levers where they don't necessarily make sense. All I'm saying is that the "depth" of a dungeon goes beyond simply the layout. There should be more interactivity: NPCs, careful observation, environmental manipulation, secrets, etc. Sometimes, a puzzle will be appopriate, as will a hidden lever or switch. Morrowind has pretty much NONE of this from what I can see.

The closest so far was the excavation report Dwemer ruin where there are 3 cranks. One of them opens a wall, and the other 2 are poison traps. Maybe there was a hint as to which was the correct one, but save/reloading works just as well...
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
Yeah thomase, but we know that we have traps and such in Oblivion. Todd shows a few different types of traps in the video from E3. It'll be at least a little more interactive than it was.
 

Astarsis

Novice
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Messages
41
There are not a lot of those, but there are a few

Without spoiling it, swimming is good for your health :D

there is a scribbed note somewhere that hint at the location of the dragonbone armor

another one is the Daedric Ruin of Boethia temple, underwater location near Hlaa Hoad. It start up a ridle based quest. Nice reward at the end (goldbrand)

the only secret door based cache I know of is in Tel Vos. Silly part is you can spot it

too bad, because the script system really allowed that sort of stuff easilly

I recall somewhere there was a torch to move, I think that was a tribunal quest where you find a crazy secret area full of dwemer mine after you go through a trap doo. it involve finding some levers

IMO Tribunal/Bloodmoon dungeons were way better.

Morrowind dungeons (except some exceptions) are the size of wardrobes

the best were:

the moon
kogorun
the ancient dunmer strongholds (in general)

there was some other large ones but I lost interest fast. creatures don't scale up. I could kill anything starting at level one (I played a monk, hand 2 hand is unbalanced as long as you fight 1-2 creatures.)

Daggerfall were definitively cooler. Especialy liked one that was the stuff of nightmare. there was that cage in the midle of the top level, you hit the lever to move between leveles, it would take you to an underwater area. past that to some crazy deep cave and at the lowest level so nasty daedra lord

it was the largest and craziest dungeon I ever saw.

Of course Daggerfall was random, I never got something like that again.

To keep things interesting in Morrowind you have to disable all trainers. It makes things too easy.

I'm glad they got rid of that in TES4. they will use trainers the way it was done in might and magic 6, to gain skill ranks/perks that give an overall boost to your skill without changing the skill value. In other words it affect knowledge. not efficiency.

the only way to make Morrowind really challenging is to select slow/screwy skills at the start - stuff like armor skill, sneak... those level really slow

back to dungeon, they had sorts of levitation shafts in morrowind, but apparently they forgot to do moving platforms.

some doors do requires specific keys. but with the open spell / security skill it mean nothing, really. they don't have anything like ancient ruins where you must put a specific gem/statue at a specific spot to open a special door.

it's silly they didn't thought of it with all the ruins in morrowind. especially the dwemer stuff would have been well suited to that

in any case, if you got tribunal/bloodmoon, you can train a big in the dunmer stronghold then move to the xpack - the main quest of morrowind is not very satisfactory. I wanted to be the *real Nerevarine* and kick out the whole empire... I guess they didn't figure out that possible plotline. Make a deal with our old friend Dagoth Ur and drink to cheerfull memories while getting rid of the false gods / betrayers (Vivec and friends)

The Bloodmoon main quest is by far the best. and the island is full of little cool secrets and puzles. it's the best of the 3 overall. but tribunal got the coolest/largest dungeons.

thomase said:
I've reinstalled Morrowind after not touching it for over 2 years. It started out of curiosity of how it performs on my relatively new PC. I installed the GCD leveling mode, and I'm starting to get into it again - at least I'm going further than I did originally.

I kind of like how GCD keeps your character more unique as you develop. However, one side effect of the way it handles stats is that once you get a lot of money, it makes sense (I think) to train the crap out of all of your Misc skills in order to help boost your attributes. In the original system, you "waster" potential multipliers by training too much misc skills.

Anyway, I should get to the orignal point of my post...

I've gone through a few dungeons so far, including some from the MQ. I have yet to see any puzzles. For example, secret doors, levers, buttons, elevators, doors that CAN'T be opened without a specific key, etc. Is the whole game like this? Didn't Daggerfall at least have some button and lever based puzzles?
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
The reason we dont get to "kick out" the empire is the same nothing really changes in Daggerfall after the ending, they simply would not create a "day after" quest strings that would be about what the player would do.

Also there was the Daggerfall issue with endings ... in a series you make endings in such a way that they dont walk over the others, make the diferent endings not having such a impact on the world or come up with some wierd thing as the Dragon Break were all endings were true and creating a paradox (also know as the cheap insane way out, see Deux Ex 2) so they could not make a ending were Nevarine kicks the Empire out because there was Oblivion to consider (even if Oblivion seens to be the end of the Empire ... at least the Septim "continent wide" Empire)
 

Astarsis

Novice
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Messages
41
Yep, they still haven't dealt with those issues. We're far from a storyteller engine that would goble scenarrios and integrate them in whatever state your world is. They are still not building games the way serious applications are made.

Maybe in 50 years :roll:

Drakron said:
The reason we dont get to "kick out" the empire is the same nothing really changes in Daggerfall after the ending, they simply would not create a "day after" quest strings that would be about what the player would do.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Drakron said:
The reason we dont get to "kick out" the empire is the same nothing really changes in Daggerfall after the ending, they simply would not create a "day after" quest strings that would be about what the player would do.

Also there was the Daggerfall issue with endings ... in a series you make endings in such a way that they dont walk over the others, make the diferent endings not having such a impact on the world or come up with some wierd thing as the Dragon Break were all endings were true and creating a paradox (also know as the cheap insane way out, see Deux Ex 2) so they could not make a ending were Nevarine kicks the Empire out because there was Oblivion to consider (even if Oblivion seens to be the end of the Empire ... at least the Septim "continent wide" Empire)

Hey, I've got a novel idea. How about... now stick with me here is is teh cool and uber new awesome innovative idea here... they just pick one ending and stick with it! Like, in Morrowind, there could be an ending where you kill Dagoth Ur and another when you join them. Now, when they announced Oblivion, they could have said it follows the storyline from where you killed Dagoth Ur.

WOW!

Of course, tons of stupid fanboys over at the ES forums would flip out. Fuck, I've seen threads over there where people asked how Bethesda would deal with the issue that they killed everyone on Morrowind, or that Bethesda should ditch all the old legendary equipment because their character got them all. Fucking idiots. But, then again, that only represents a tiny fraction of the people who played the game, which is a good thing.

So, yea, that's how you deal with multiple endings.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Chefe said:
Drakron said:
The reason we dont get to "kick out" the empire is the same nothing really changes in Daggerfall after the ending, they simply would not create a "day after" quest strings that would be about what the player would do.

Also there was the Daggerfall issue with endings ... in a series you make endings in such a way that they dont walk over the others, make the diferent endings not having such a impact on the world or come up with some wierd thing as the Dragon Break were all endings were true and creating a paradox (also know as the cheap insane way out, see Deux Ex 2) so they could not make a ending were Nevarine kicks the Empire out because there was Oblivion to consider (even if Oblivion seens to be the end of the Empire ... at least the Septim "continent wide" Empire)

Hey, I've got a novel idea. How about... now stick with me here is is teh cool and uber new awesome innovative idea here... they just pick one ending and stick with it! Like, in Morrowind, there could be an ending where you kill Dagoth Ur and another when you join them. Now, when they announced Oblivion, they could have said it follows the storyline from where you killed Dagoth Ur.

WOW!

Of course, tons of stupid fanboys over at the ES forums would flip out. Fuck, I've seen threads over there where people asked how Bethesda would deal with the issue that they killed everyone on Morrowind, or that Bethesda should ditch all the old legendary equipment because their character got them all. Fucking idiots. But, then again, that only represents a tiny fraction of the people who played the game, which is a good thing.

So, yea, that's how you deal with multiple endings.
Maybe they could have made a mod that added the alternative ending, and it would warn you that it is not considered canon.
 

OverrideB1

Scholar
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
443
Location
The other side of the mirror
Why should a different ending be considered "non-canon"? After all, Bethesda keep banging on about how each game is a "reinvention" and not a seqel to any previous game. So, does it matter that X% of players joined Ur (if that ending was possible) or 100-X% of players killed him off?
 

Claw

Erudite
Patron
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
3,777
Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Question:
How stupid would a player have to be to require a warning that his choices in the game may not be considered canon?

Answer:
Very, very stupid.

PS: Very.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
OMFG u can't put charactar from mortal combat in mortal kmobat 2!!! I fatality them all!!!11!

I don't really have a problem with the developer enforcing certain outcomes of variable events as canon in future games. It's the lesser of two evils, ie I'd rather have interesting choices and multiple endings/outcomes/permutations within a single game and not necessarily see those accounted for in a sequel, than to not have those interesting choices at all.

Ideally, I'd rather see less sequels too.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
OverrideB1 said:
Why should a different ending be considered "non-canon"? After all, Bethesda keep banging on about how each game is a "reinvention" and not a seqel to any previous game. So, does it matter that X% of players joined Ur (if that ending was possible) or 100-X% of players killed him off?
Oh, so how would it work?
Random Cyrodiil guy: "The empire has 9 provinces. Or it might have eight. Morrowind is still n imperial province. Or maybe not. Maybe the Nerevaring helped Dagoth Ur. Or maybe he didn't. Maybe Dagoth Ur won't invad ethe empire. Or, wait, maybe he will. Who the fuck cares anyway???"
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Claw said:
Question:
How stupid would a player have to be to require a warning that his choices in the game may not be considered canon?

Answer:
Very, very stupid.

PS: Very.
Would he?
What's the problem with warning someone what is canon and what is not? What would TIL write?
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Ah what the fuck does perfectly preserving story integrity in TES matter anyway? You had no relationship with anyone in Morrowind.

One of the funniest/saddest things of the official Oblivion Forum is reading the number of 'Will we see Caius Cosades' threads that crop up (there's one near the top now). So desperate are the little fans for some kind of real interaction with other characters that they are willing to impute a relationship with an NPC who stood in one room and gave you some instructions, then abruptly left. There was no meaningful interaction with him whatsoever, yet simply because he was the NPC the player had the most recurring early contact with, you get comments like 'Gee I hope we see him again, he was cool, blah blah'.

And will there be any reaction to this palpable wish of TES fans, this ambition the developers of Daggerfall had - to implement real characters with real dialogue interactions, with real relationships with the player fleshed out through real choices the player makes?

Not if Todd's comment is any clue - (in effect) 'Fallout 3 should have real characters and relationships, but in TES we just can't do that kind of thing'....
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Twinfalls said:
Ah what the fuck does perfectly preserving story integrity in TES matter anyway? You had no relationship with anyone in Morrowind.
So, how exactly are those two related?
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
3,910
Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
thomase said:
....I want better interactivity...

I agree Thomase. And it needs to be brought to the MMO world as well. An MMO with true environmental puzzles as well as interactive objects (not just physics stuff although that is do able through the lag) but single-player mystery game type stuff....is sorely lacking ;)

My wife plays all those Adventure Company mystery games and they have a pretty decent level of interactivity that just hasnt been pulled across genres.

Its about frigging time.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Lumpy said:
Twinfalls said:
Ah what the fuck does perfectly preserving story integrity in TES matter anyway? You had no relationship with anyone in Morrowind.
So, how exactly are those two related?

Well, I was thinking of Gothic 2's meeting with past characters, which made the consistency with what happened before important - and only because you had some relationships with those characters - they were a part of your quests in a way that Morrowind NPCs never really were.

I guess what I was trying to say was that I'd only really notice a change in events for a sequel if I was playing the same character, and then only if that character had some real interactions with others. Otherwise, why would you feel terribly put out by any (sensible) change in what happened? You're playing a totally new character, you never had any relationships with anyone in the past. Sure, hearing of events that are different to what you did is a little jarring, but why would you really care about it?

But you're right, it's not especially relevant, more a side issue.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Twinfalls said:
One of the funniest/saddest things of the official Oblivion Forum is reading the number of 'Will we see Caius Cosades' threads that crop up (there's one near the top now). So desperate are the little fans for some kind of real interaction with other characters that they are willing to impute a relationship with an NPC who stood in one room and gave you some instructions, then abruptly left. There was no meaningful interaction with him whatsoever, yet simply because he was the NPC the player had the most recurring early contact with, you get comments like 'Gee I hope we see him again, he was cool, blah blah'.

It's even funnier that they want to see Fargoth or Jiub. The former you gave the ring you found in the starting barrel to, and the latter was the person who asked your name on the boat. Both had about 2 lines of unique dialogue. At least Caius was part of a questline.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
I agree with the sentiment that Beth needs to start picking canon for the games, or violently restructure their storytelling. Having four games set within 50 years, featuring several of the same characters, which need to be somehow non-interacting in the majority of plot threads is not possible. It would actually be somewhat in character for TES (given the faux conflicting reports of Morrowind and Daggerfall)) to have differing reports of what the protagonists of the games did - if the games were set far enough apart that such drift would be reasonable.
 

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