MSFD on Bethesda's uber next-gen skill system

[Balor]

@ metallix
Well, "magicka return" is a very 'logical' pluging that, I think, should be implemented in the 'core' of the game.
I mean, spells getting cheaper mana-wise as your skills go higher.
Also, to properly use staves or other 'rocket-launcher' items you should have some sort of 'prereq' skill amount - otherwise you may fail to use it at all, or get fireball in your face.
After all, it's not fucking AK-47, I HIGHLY doubt that you can just - point and pull the trigger. I mean, you have to invoke the damn thing! Also, recharging shoudl be MUCH harder for 'non-magic' crowd.
Btw, in AD&D, you, in theory, should know 'access code' to each wand or staff, otherwise it's just a piece of wood/metal/whatever.
Ok, here is my POV on enchanted items:
You should have enough skill points in appropriate magic school (fireballs - destruction, etc) to be able to activate it at all - the more powerful it is, the higher are reqs.
Then, just like with spells, you should have a chance to 'miscast' it.
And some, more powerful artefacts should be protected by enchantmets that will give you 'Invalid fingerprind ID! Weapon not functional' - equivalent - so you'll have to undertake a special quest to unlock it's powers.

 

[galsiah]

Wow, you don't really know too much about the magic system in Oblivion, do you?

Want defensive magic? Silence is a good. Paralysis. Demoralize (or Turn Undead depending on what you're fighting). Calm is pretty powerful on enemies in combat. Heck you could cast Dispel on an opponent and get rid of their buffs & shields. Frenzy might make enemies fight each other instead of you. There's also Command. Need to get away in a hurry? Cast invisibility. The AI will react realistically.

Ok, so far, so good, but we're still in Morrowind territory [although I confess I missed some of these out of my earlier list.]. Demoralize / Turning didn't work too well I think, and Command was rarely useful in a situation where it was necessary. I confess I've never tried using frenzy. Calm was overpowered in Morrowind if you happened to use it the wrong way (e.g. calm 1pt, 30 seconds).
I guess these have all been reworked though, so perhaps they are useful and more interesting.

In addition to summonings, there's also Reanimate -- raise your own army of the dead to fight for you. You can also poison opponents. And of course there are buffs -- elemental shields, resistances, fortifies, reflect & absorb magicka, etc. Tactical stuff like Detect Life and Night Eye. I think the magic system allows for a tremendous amount of strategy and variety. It's not all about inflicting damage.

Not bad, but it's still nearly all *aim spell ??? at opponent* or *cast defensive buff on self*. Is is possible to cast area effect spells on an area (without their hitting a wall or other object)? If I wanted a defensive area effect between my character and some enemies, can I do that? I don't suppose there's any short range teleportation on self spell??

Oh, and it's not "scripted effect", it's "Script Effect." A Script Effect is a magic effect that runs a script on the target of a spell..

Now that is good. The possibilities are endless. I'm grinning just thinking about it.

...Hang on though - when you say "runs a script", do you mean "starts a script that runs until told to stop", or do you mean "runs a script over one frame, then terminates"? If it's the latter (which I hope it isn't), presumably a "targeted" script (as in a global script startscripted on an object) could be started on the target from the script effect??

For instance, it'd be nice to keep a script running on the target for a while to update some globals / pass variables to a global script giving information on the target (say knowing its position for the next 30 seconds / monitoring its stats...).

Does a script effect always affect the target, or is can they be resisted? Is it possible to have a script effect on an area effect spell to run the same script on every creature in an area?
If so it would be possible to keep a global variable as an index, and assign each creature in an area an ID in their new script (perhaps targeted rather than the script effect itself). You could then form an "array" of creatures for an area, iterate though it using the global variable ID and perform any test / instruction on any creature by setting a suitable global (/globals) to instruct the creature's script (each script would have an "if ( Global_CreatureID != myID ) return" at the top, then a series of checks to perform appropriate actions in certain circumstances triggered by other global variable codes).

Presuming you could use ExplodeSpell (or something similar) to hit every creature in an area with such a script effect as soon as the player entered, you'd effectively have a list of pointers to every creature in an area. Not as smooth or efficient as real pointers, but every bit as powerful. You could even iterate through the entire list in one frame by incrementing the global index variable from each creature's script after performing necessary checks / instructions (making sure that the IDs were assigned in the order the scripts will run, of course).

From that point on, the world is our oyster :twisted:

Of course, the world being as it is, there's probably some reason the above won't work. I guess the possibility of creatures / npcs switching areas might be one spanner in the works. There would also need to be a way to cope with creature death / creation - fiddly, but doable I think. Perhaps a "linked list" of creatures would work, with each creature storing the ID of the next creature, and setting a global to update the nextID of the previous creature when this creature dies / leaves the cell.

Still, it was a thought.

Our designers have done some pretty far out things with it.

Good to know, but I'm sure we'll go further

 

[Zomg]

Hey, is the staff's animation slung across your shoulder like an RPG-7? I would find that redemptively amusing. You could give it iron sights.

Has anyone said if the silence spell interacts with the stealth system? That was always one of the cooler "flexible" uses for a D&D spell, casting the Silence spell on your thief. Seeing some nice touches like that would increase my enthusiasm that the one-size-fits-all generic modularity of Morrowind magic has been addressed. Like Balor I'd also like to know if pains have been taken to expand the MW targetting conventions (self, touch and fireball) to maybe include stuff like instant effect cones, continuous cones that remain connected to the caster, spells that are cast on an area rather than a mob (think Firewall from D&D, or alternatively an oil slick spell), spells that do not require fireball-style aiming (maybe they simply automatically affect the nearest target in the forward arc - think magic missile or lightning), etc. Those would also increase my enthusiasm if they're present in the core game.

Edit - Bah, I hate seeing that someone has beaten me to my questions in the time between starting and ending my post.

 

[7th Circle]

I don't see how my contention that traditionally RPG games are quite complex can be denied, though, because it is simply obvious. The fact that he doubted (and I suppose you do) my statement was surprising,a nd just shows how pathetic the games out lately with RPG slapped on the side of them are.

What on earth makes you think I doubt your contention?

Saying that games like civ are complex in their own way does not in any way imply that RPGs are not. You seem to be presenting it as almost a dichotomy when what I am trying to say is that both types of games can be complex in different ways. I am not defending the other poster's points. I am defending games like civ whose complexity you seem to be dismissing.

 

[galsiah]

Like Balor I'd also like to know if pains have been taken to expand the MW targetting conventions (self, touch and fireball) to maybe include stuff like instant effect cones, continuous cones that remain connected to the caster, spells that are cast on an area rather than a mob (think Firewall from D&D, or alternatively an oil slick spell), spells that do not require fireball-style aiming (maybe they simply automatically affect the nearest target in the forward arc - think magic missile or lightning).

If my above creature list idea (or something similar) is practical, then this is all possible. It's a big "if" though. The only problem would be the graphics.

Once you have an indexable list of creatures / npcs, you can do anything possible in the editor to any of them under any testable condition at any time.

Here's a list of some possibilities off the top of my head:
Bypassing reflect abilities of the target.
Damaging any creature / npc that goes into a certain fixed area (D&D firewall etc.).
Damaging any creature / npc that goes within a certain distance of the player.
Damaging any creature / npc in a cone in front of the player.
Teleporting any creature / npc behind the player in front of him.
Switching positions of the player and a creature / npc.
Slowing any creature / npc in such an area (e.g. oil slick).
Automatic targeting of the nearest creature / npc with any spell (magic missile...).
Automatic targeting of the highest / lowest level creature with any spell.
Automatic targeting of the highest / lowest health creature with any spell.
Summoning a creature behind a target creature / npc.
Firing a spell at a creature / npc from another direction, and have it run off to find the supposed caster.
Making all creatures / npcs below a given level flee from the caster.
Stopping all movement of creatures / npcs in a given area.
Making all creatures in a certain area have a very high desire for food, then create a small amount and watch them fight it out.
Making any creature / npc run around the player in a circle three times before attacking.

Depending on CS access to physics, quite a few other interesting effects may be possible. A lot of fun could be had with the AI too - though I'm not sure on specifics here. The tricky part of any of this would be the graphics.

The single biggest limiting factor in the power of Morrowind's scripting language was the lack of pointers. If the creature list idea above works, pretty much anything you can think of is possible. It's really quite exciting.

 

[Balor]

Hey, is the staff's animation slung across your shoulder like an RPG-7? I would find that redemptively amusing. You could give it iron sights.

LMAO!
Well, actually, RPG is shoulder-fired due to 'recol-compensation' backblast.
Doubt that we'll have it there, but that would be fun, indeed .

 

[Balor]

@ galsiah
Agree completely.
I was also (well, pretty much any modder who went beyond using scripts for dialogues and other simple stuff) heavily bugged by inability to run a script on a creature/NPC of my choice.
Now only limit I see is CPU calculation ability .

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

@ Galsian

Place an activator 2000 units above the target.
Cast lighting from that activator at target?

You can have just about anything cast a spell at just about anything else. And imagine the possibilities of combining script effects with the new trap system...

 

[Balor]

Including statics at statics?
Well, anyway, it cannot be bad. I bet we'll have some VERY nice spell packs avalable.

 

[Atrokkus]

MSFD, care to comment mine and Balor's posts on magic system? What major differences will it have compared to Morrowind's?

 

[HardCode]

There is no NEED for a blanket statement, just as their is no blanket statement that encompassed billiards and tic-tac-toe games, other than "games" of course. It's the lumping together of PC games and console games is what is hurting PC games to begin with.

Bullshit. I know that we're a haven for elitism here at the Codex, but you need to have a red hot look at yourself when you make statements like that. Let's adapt your strawman into a more appropriate analogy. Let's compare, say Billiards to Pool or Snooker. They're about as different as PC games and console games.

Thanks for proving my point! Billiards, pool, and snooker are FUCKING NOTHING alike. Take that from someone who has been around the scene for many years. Just because they are on a fucking table doesn't make them the same.

The tables are different.
The balls are different.
The rules are different.
The cues can be different.
The technique is different.
The knowledge is different.

PC games and console games are as different as pool, billiards, and snooker. I guess you just don't know enough about either one?

There is nothing that can't be accomplished on one platform that can't be accomplished on the other.

BZZZZZT!!!! Wrong! Try a TES Construction Set on the XBox.

 

[HardCode]

bryce777 has a good grasp on the evolution of games on an electronic screen.

In the past, computer games were a geek thing. ...

I never, ever, ever heard people who played computer games say video games unless they were talking about games like thexder or whatever. Only grandmothers and people with no idea what they were ever did.

Exactly. It is usually the ignorant (and I mean that literally, not derogatory) who create the misnomers (sp?), as in the case with "video game". If I were to go to see an orchestra, I'd probably say, "Look at all the violins", not knowing they are NOT all violins but different instruments. That is because I am ignorant to those kinds of instruments.

The dinstinction between games on computers and arcade games was very strong. Now, it is basically nonexistent. If you only started playing computer games 5 years ago, of course you have not heard that. ...

The reason this classification is harmful, is that computer games are now judged by the standards applied to console games. ... Because they are console playing morons, and console games and computer games have jack shit to do with each other.

Agreed. See, the first console games (Atari 2600 et al) tried to imitate the arcade game. Then, computer games did the same. However, the PC was capable of taking the arcade game and moving it in another direction. Now, big business is ignorantly trying to move them back into the direction of the console, foregoing all that a PC can do that a console can't, thus ruining the computer game genre.

 

[elander_]

Galsiah, I honestly think you do the TES magic system a great injustice if you see rocket launcher magic as its only capbility. I have played very few games with a wider range of spells, and none with as much flexibility to the magnitude and combiantion of effects. Sure you can do destruction magic, which in any game is essentially the same as using missiles with slightly more fancy effects. In TES you have the option of having them touch, range and with or without area effect.
You can also use buffs, summon creatures to fight for you, drain strength from the enemy, control him, give yourself invisibility or flight, grab objects from afar, enchant your own items, now een raise the dead... You listed many yourself. I agree that there could be even more (ther alwasy can be more), and that some could be better implemented (the effects of blindness or burden etc. should be more obvious, and balanced, (and we will see some of that in Oblivion as we already know), but I am sorry, if all you could do with all these options is "rocket launcher" style gameplay, than that's your own damn fault.
I play a pure mage in Morrowind right now (well, she also uses hand to hand sometimes), and I love it for the challenge it presents, and the multitude of options. They are there, you just have to use them.

Yes well you are right with this one. There are 6 schollls of magic in TES: destruction, alteration, restoration, illusion, conjuration and mysticism. Of these only destruction, restoration and alteration fall into the more FPS playing style with missiles, shields, and healing spells. Conjuration lets you summon foes to fight for you, illusion lets you dominate the minds of other npcs and mysticism is considered the prime school of magic. Unless you aren't a mystic you can't be considered a real magic in TES taken from the lore.

This is in theory in pratice Morrowind is a big waste of Daggerfall heritage. It's not what they have is how they use it that counts. That's why anyone who wants to play Morrowind should try the Wakim game improvements mod from this site if he/she wants to make use of the high level spells and the behavior modifier spells to properly role-playing a pure mage:

http://www.hiredgoons.net/MWFiles/

Groundbreaking in its far-reaching effects upon gameplay, Wakim's Game Improvements (WGI) includes some of the most impressive, well-thought-out modifications available. Includes Flee AI, a magic system overhaul, dialogue and faction-relation enhancements, and numerous Item/Character/Game Settings balances, all making Morrowind a richer and more vibrant world for all kinds of characters to play in. Highly Recommended.

I don't dislike the FPS gameplay style for Battlemages but if MSFD can balance a pure mage i can role-play without having to use these tactics then he will have my respect as a person who can balance an rpg magic properly.

Edit: MSFD has mentioned some interesting spells like silence, paralysis, demoralize, calm, frenzy, dispel, command, meta-magic spells like absorb and reflect. Most of these spells were introduced in either Arena or Daggerfall. The ones that are new are related to visual effects (Night Eye) or the new Radiant AI possibilities. The news here would be if these spells coule be used in a balanced magic system and that a pure mage gameplay is not just another flavor of FPS combat.

@MSFD are you trying to dodge the discussion away from balance again ?

 

[Imbecile]

Agreed. See, the first console games (Atari 2600 et al) tried to imitate the arcade game. Then, computer games did the same. However, the PC was capable of taking the arcade game and moving it in another direction. Now, big business is ignorantly trying to move them back into the direction of the console, foregoing all that a PC can do that a console can't, thus ruining the computer game genre.

I dunno I would say that they are both moving towards the middle ground. Consoles are gaining Hard drives, Internet capabilities, and PC innards. In many ways they are simply becoming standardised PC's.

I'm sure that if everyone named their favourite games there would be no reason that they couldnt operate on todays PCs or consoles.

 

[AnalogKid]

Holy fuck! Is this the hydra-thread of doom or what? There's like 4 different discussions going on and none of them are little one-liner zing-fests, essays upon essays... Anyway, I'll try to lop off one of the hydra heads with this last post...

I am not here to defend Oblivion. I do indeed have my own issues with it and the decisions they made. And I can't say I know where there focus lies, as the game isn't out yet. But nevertheless there are things I am looking forward to and see as gameplay improvements, or good signs for gameplay opportunities. And the paint it lack attitude here irks me sometimes, so I will go for the bait one more time . So let me try to list a few:

[snip]

I find the complexity of spellmaking quite exhilarating compared to any other game that just allows me to use premade spells. The tactical options are many. And all that is void
because someone said rocket launcher in a dev diary?
Rocket launcher! Rocket launcher!

I agree with you (and the devs) that the script effects for spells will be awesome in the CS. I also agree with you that there is some complexity left in Oblivion, but my entire beef is that what little is left is pretty much the result of just not having been cut yet. As you yourself put it:

but I am sorry, if all you could do with all these options is "rocket launcher" style gameplay, than that's your own damn fault.

My point is simply that the DEVELOPERS of the game chose to go "rocket launcher" in their description of their own game. Not just in that one post, but in almost every area that they have released information. That destroys all confidence that they value interesting complexity. And yes, it is their own damn fault!

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I sort of agree, it would make me happier if gameplay, dialogue, cool quests, etc. would be a larger part of the PR for this game, too. I entered some questions to the next fan interview to that effect, lets see if they make it to the final version. On the other hand the lack of it does not yet make me convinced that it may end up a dumb game, yet, there are bits and pieces here and there that make me hopeful, and wat's PR anyway! But I may just be of incurably sunny disposition

 

[OverrideB1]

I agree with you (and the devs) that the script effects for spells will be awesome in the CS!

I would argue the toss there: like much of the new stuff in Oblivion it has the potential to be awesome. Whether it will be, or if it's a pile of steaming shite, remains to be seen - just like the much vaunted ragdoll physics and the RAI.

Bethesda have nobody but themselves to blame for the deeply cynical responses to their (so-called) press releases. Many of them are entirely content-free, most rehash stuff we've already been told, some are just outright contradictory. And the stuff that hasn't been content-free has mostly been along the lines of "Oh well, we cut that because... [insert excuse of the week here]". And when one of their staff - an ex-TESforumite who should know fucking better - comes along and starts dribbling about rocket-launcher staves... In fact, the most cogent statement they've made is the one that goes "trust us, it'll be cool".

Unfortunately, as I said above, the stuff with the potential to be cool is untested and, since Bethesda are pathologically reluctant to release any information whatsoever, we have only their word as to it's coolness. Much of what is left (as you pointed out) - removing the fluff and glitter - is what's not yet been... ahem... made more accessible.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I agree with you (and the devs) that the script effects for spells will be awesome in the CS!

I would argue the toss there: like much of the new stuff in Oblivion it has the potential to be awesome. Whether it will be, or if it's a pile of steaming shite, remains to be seen - just like the much vaunted ragdoll physics and the RAI.

Bethesda have nobody but themselves to blame for the deeply cynical responses to their (so-called) press releases. Many of them are entirely content-free, most rehash stuff we've already been told, some are just outright contradictory. And the stuff that hasn't been content-free has mostly been along the lines of "Oh well, we cut that because... [insert excuse of the week here]". And when one of their staff - an ex-TESforumite who should know fucking better - comes along and starts dribbling about rocket-launcher staves... In fact, the most cogent statement they've made is the one that goes "trust us, it'll be cool".

Unfortunately, as I said above, the stuff with the potential to be cool is untested and, since Bethesda are pathologically reluctant to release any information whatsoever, we have only their word as to it's coolness. Much of what is left (as you pointed out) - removing the fluff and glitter - is what's not yet been... ahem... made more accessible.

On the other hand there are actually few who are as jaded and cynical as you are. Anyway it makes no sense to expect a full rundown of the gameplay from them, that's what reviews are for. Their PR achieved what PR should achieve - interest in the product. Besides, the info that was released actually contains a lot of useful info, interesting hints, etc., it's your choice to always focus on what is missing or "only promised" adn to usually conjecture the worst from it. But rant on, if that makes you happy.

 

[AnalogKid]

I agree with you (and the devs) that the script effects for spells will be awesome in the CS!

I would argue the toss there: like much of the new stuff in Oblivion it has the potential to be awesome. Whether it will be, or if it's a pile of steaming shite, remains to be seen - just like the much vaunted ragdoll physics and the RAI.

Hey now, I didn't use the exlamation point in my original post, you cocksucker!

I guess I feel more strongly than you about the script effects. I didn't say it would make the game good, because the devs would probably only use it to create the Holy Apache Attack Helicoptor of Antioch. I said only that it will be an awesome feature in the CS. It is exactly the potential for creation that makes the CS great. Oblivion may succeed where NWN failed (for me), in terms of fostering great fan-made modules.

 

[galsiah]

I would argue the toss there: like much of the new stuff in Oblivion it has the potential to be awesome. Whether it will be, or if it's a pile of steaming shite, remains to be seen - just like the much vaunted ragdoll physics and the RAI.

I'd have to argue with that. On one level you can say that script effects might not be too impressive out of the box - perhaps the devs won't have done much impressive with them, perhaps they have.
However, unless the CS / scripting for Oblivion is badly broken (fairly unlikely), script effects on spells will be a great feature - because modders can do one hell of a lot with it even if the devs haven't. There's not much middle ground here: if you can run a script on a spell target, that's all there is to know. There's not really anything to go wrong.

If the devs have screwed up the physics or the AI, then that's a big problem. If they've screwed up their attempts at making interesting scripted spell effects, then it doesn't matter - modders will put that right fairly quickly.

I'd like to have more details as to the scope of this though - i.e. will it be a *dialogue results box* type of "script" that runs once, or will it be a fully functional targeted script which can run for as long as it needs to? It doesn't make too much difference though - so long as the script is at least as functional as a Morrowind dialogue result box, pretty much anything is possible. It's merely a question of how annoying it is.

In Morrowind, starting a script on general creatures or npcs was impossible, plain and simple. In Oblivion, it will be possible through spells, and almost certainly without seeming to use spells at all (with a bit of cunning). This is major progress, and I don't see that much could go wrong - unless crunch mode has finally sent MSFD mad and he's making stuff up.

It is annoying that this kind of information mainly comes up in forum posts and isn't part of the usual PR though. It'd be nice to see a few more technical descriptions occasionally, rather then the word "cool".

I find their PR methods unfortunate, but they might well make financial sense: where is the sense in releasing a load of info to please RPG purists, when those people will be sure to find out about the game after release and make an informed decision on that basis? The people at whom it makes sense to target PR are those people who might decide to buy the game on the basis that it's "cool" rather than on hard facts. It's not surprising that the PR is dumbed down - this doesn't necessarily mean that the game is too.

 

[OverrideB1]

@GhanBuriGhan
Yeah, I'm jaded and cynical - and (IMHO) I have every right to be so where the TES series is concerned. Morrowind was good despite it's flaws. Flaws that you - and other skilled modders - corrected as best you could given the limitations of the CS. However I can't shake the feeling that Oblivion is being rushed because they (Bethesda) know that modders like yourself will probably transform what sounds a very mediocre game into something quite extraordinary.

True, I also focus on what's missing rather than what's in there - simply because I have a benchmark for the stuff that has been removed and no benchmark for the new stuff other than "trust us, it's cool". My expectations for the game have sunk from "yay - a new TES game" to "bleh, who gives a shit" based entirely on the information released by Bethesda. And if that's the effect their PR has on a longtime fan there is something drastically wrong with that PR.

@AnalogKid
I know you didn't use "!" at the end of that line - blame my poor cut and paste skills

And I didn't say that script effect would make the game shit either. Just that, like all of the stuff that we get told is the business, it is a totally unknow quantity. I want it to be cool, I want it to totally transform the way the game is played - but see my comment to GhanBuriGhan ^

@galsiah
I don't expect the script effect(s) to be too impressive out of the box - I expect that modders like you and Ghan will be the ones to do the really impressive shit with it.




And that says a heck of a lot about the game right there: that the expectation is that modders will transform the game using script effects and the revamped and shiny CS. Have our expectations of commercial games sunk so low that we expect bugs, memory leaks, and crap framerates straight out of the box and expect that unpaid people will correct these mistakes for the sheer love of the game?

I do sincerely hope that my cynical expectations of Oblivion are wrong, that all the stuff that they've cut out, all the streamlining they've done, all of the making it more accessible, all the piss poor PR is just smoke and mirrors and that the game is the best thing since slided bread. But I'm not going to be holding my breath...

 

[AnalogKid]

Have our expectations of commercial games sunk so low that we expect bugs, memory leaks, and crap framerates straight out of the box and expect that unpaid people will correct these mistakes for the sheer love of the game!

Maybe not the memory leaks, those'll get fixed by patch 3, but the rest of it... pretty much.

 

[elander_]

Saying that Beth doesn't give people enough information is true in a certain way. For one they give plenty of detail about the action part of combat mechanics. MSFD has made a good work making its vision for the action gameplay clear without having to spoil any game details. Also the videos we can see about combat give a pretty good picture of how things work, unfortunatly for people who dislike DeusEx style it works much like it, mixing action, stealth and light rpg features. But on the other side the information concerning the rpg gameplay aspects of Oblivion is almost null giving signs that this is an area where Beth developers have notorious dificulties being convincent or just don't have much to say. Don't mention the amount of spells they have or the geometry of their new shiny rpg system which admitidly looks geometrically better than before and balances warrior, thief and wizard skills better but doesn't say anything if it is used well or not. It's a good system in theory. Dialog itself works very good again in theory but do we have any example of "good" dialog to judge ? A demo would make people trust the developers capabilities more but it looks like their current PR is afraid of demos for some reason he already tried to explain but the only thing that came out was "it's not something we do". I only hope he isn't afraid of showing the capabilities of the devs in his team because this is what it looks like.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

@GhanBuriGhan
Yeah, I'm jaded and cynical - and (IMHO) I have every right to be so where the TES series is concerned. Morrowind was good despite it's flaws. Flaws that you - and other skilled modders - corrected as best you could given the limitations of the CS. However I can't shake the feeling that Oblivion is being rushed because they (Bethesda) know that modders like yourself will probably transform what sounds a very mediocre game into something quite extraordinary.

This is said quite often, but I really doubt it is true. I don't imagine they cut corners thinking they can get away with because mods can add it later. That would be such a stillborn business model, especially considering that the big money maker, the console, most likely will not have access to player mods (not without some messing around at least). Mods are all great, but if you look at the overall market, I believe you would find that most Morrowind owners never used mods, and many used only very few - that may be different in the forum crowd, but we are not representative of the customer base.

For better or for worse I think they still follow their own vision of the game and bounce it off what their budget and manpower allows them to do, and what marketing advises. So if there are problems they result from decisions that were made early in the design process.

Some of those are deplorable, but I don't think a game that is 3 years in the making, has a large and for all we know smoothly functioning team, and gets delayed on top is not rushed. If there are problems they originate from a certain lack of vision on the core RPG gameplay mechanics, and too much geeky enthusiasm with gadgets like graphics, physics, and AI - that I believe WILL be great for gameplay, but of course they aren't the whole picture.

 

[Section8]

To continue one of the irrelevant side discussions:

In the past, computer games were a geek thing. Computers were not in every household, and hardly any of them at first. Computer games and console games in the same store never happened until comp usa started to go the way of electronics and other bullshit in its stores.

About as far back as I can remember, places where I'd buy C64 games would also have Atari 2600, Intellivision and Colecovision games. And here in Australia, game stores didn't really appear in any great numbers until EB moved in to monopolise. Now, I don't really like EB, but they have about the widest range of PC games available here in Australia. They wouldn't be able to maintain a profitable business without also catering to the console market. It's an evil not entirely without benefit.

I never, ever, ever heard people who played computer games say video games unless they were talking about games like thexder or whatever. Only grandmothers and people with no idea what they were ever did.

I personally, don't use the term "video games" either, because I tend to discuss within the subsets of the classification, ie computer games, console games, etc. In fact, I rarely even use console games, since I tend to talk with relation to a specific console. But, I still defend "video games" as a catch all term.

The dinstinction between games on computers and arcade games was very strong. Now, it is basically nonexistent. If you only started playing computer games 5 years ago, of course you have not heard that. Most computer game players of old have dropped out in disgust at how poor the new generation fo games is.

Well, of course I only started playing computer games 5 years ago, isn't it obvious? There's still a pretty dramatic distinction between arcade and PC games. Arcade games are designed to be short and sweet, but long enough to keep a player plugging coins in. You might also have noticed that in the last ten or so years, arcade games have also further distinguished themselves in their interface methods. There are hardly any traditional stick and button arcade games these days, but there's countless light gun, steeringwheel, dancepad, etc. games. They need to set themselves apart from PC and console games to keep people interested.

As for "dropping out in disgust," that's more bullshit. Disgust, sure, it seems to be universal, but I don't see many gamers giving up the ghost, they just seem to gather in places like the Codex and dream of a return to the glory days.

The reason this classification is harmful, is that computer games are now judged by the standards applied to console games. Basically, blithering idiot reviews who think an RPG equates to Diablo are the ones doing the reviews, and if a game requires thinking or reading, and doesn't take the player by the hand then they hate it. Because they are console playing morons, and console games and computer games have jack shit to do with each other.

Bullshit. Care to remind me what platform Diablo was developed for? The meat of the matter is the fact that gaming is no longer the domain of geeks, and so PC gaming has it's fair share of idiots, who seem to be filling up the ranks of major gaming publications, because the geeks avoid them like the plague. Do you honestly believe a gamer with intelligent criticism and an experienced view of the state of the industry wants to work at Gamespy? That's what the "morons" get the job.

Also, read any PC specific publications recently? You'd think that with their separation and elitism above the console crowd would make them far more aligned to your way of thinking, right? Nope, they're still gushing over the same old shit, and talking about how PCs have far superior graphical capabilities.

Fuck, at least with a console, the technology is fixed, so the optimum eye candy levels are also fixed. With PC games, it's always moving upward, so the onus is on developers to push for bleeding edge graphics.

Thanks for proving my point! Billiards, pool, and snooker are FUCKING NOTHING alike. Take that from someone who has been around the scene for many years. Just because they are on a fucking table doesn't make them the same.

Thanks for giving such a reactionary response. Let me explain it to you again. I never said they were alike. I said, that it's reasonable to place them within a common category. In fact, you even manage to illustrate somewhat in your own "proof" against.

The tables are different.
The balls are different.
The rules are different.
The cues can be different.
The technique is different.
The knowledge is different.

Thanks for highlighting a good set of common elements shared between the games. They may differ, but all games take place on a felt topped, slate table, involve using a cue to strike a ball and use a secondary impact to send other balls into pockets.

I suppose because the rules, board, technique, knowledge, die/dice are different when comparing Monopoly to Trivial Pursuit, they can't be classified within a common category of "board games"?

Or, you could argue that Fallout and Baldur's Gate, two vastly different entities can't be collectively called computer games, because they're not exactly alike? Nope, it seems you just don't fucking get it, and want to attempt to belittle me in lieu of actually having a logical argument -

PC games and console games are as different as pool, billiards, and snooker. I guess you just don't know enough about either one?

Go back to my previous post, idiot. I said that PC "games and console games are as different as pool, billiards, and snooker." I also said that they share enough commonality to be effectively categorised within a single blanket term.

BZZZZZT!!!! Wrong! Try a TES Construction Set on the XBox.

There's no reason why that isn't possible. Certainly, the PC is a more appropriate tool, largely due to it's flexibility of software and peripherals, but it could be done. And, as consoles themselves become more flexible and modular, it becomes more likely.

Exactly. It is usually the ignorant (and I mean that literally, not derogatory) who create the misnomers (sp?), as in the case with "video game". If I were to go to see an orchestra, I'd probably say, "Look at all the violins", not knowing they are NOT all violins but different instruments. That is because I am ignorant to those kinds of instruments.

No, that's a fallacious analogy. Violin is a very specific term applied to a single instrument. "Video game" is a broad categorisation.

The whole argument that you and Bryce seem to be building here is more akin to -

Me: Hey, I like the string instruments.
You: Idiot! Violins and Violas are completely different things and can't be categorised together! Evah!

It's not necessarily an ignorant point of view, it's just that someone who isn't a game geek doesn't see any need to have a separate classification for PC or Console games, two things which are quite similar in almost all respects.

Agreed. See, the first console games (Atari 2600 et al) tried to imitate the arcade game. Then, computer games did the same. However, the PC was capable of taking the arcade game and moving it in another direction. Now, big business is ignorantly trying to move them back into the direction of the console, foregoing all that a PC can do that a console can't, thus ruining the computer game genre.

Once again, it is not a desire to make PC games more like console games, it's a desire to make PC games "accessible" to a broader, mass market audience. Even if consoles didn't exist, with the way society and big business functions these days, we'd see the same paradigm shift.

What would you like to pin the blame for movies and TV getting dumber on?