Review New Vegas - Dead Money reviewed at Eurogamer

[KalosKagathos]

What's the difference between dying and respawning in the same place and reloading a save anyway?

In the first case, things you've killed stay killed. In the second one, they don't.

Don't all games that use a save system have an inherent lack of challenge in them as you can just save before every encounter that may kill you?

Of course not. Nothing stops the encounter itself from being challenging, you just don't have to redo the encounters you've already survived every time you die.

 

[commie]

]
In the first case, things you've killed stay killed. In the second one, they don't.

A minor difference, especially if you just have to fight an extra goon again.

Don't all games that use a save system have an inherent lack of challenge in them as you can just save before every encounter that may kill you?

Of course not. Nothing stops the encounter itself from being challenging, you just don't have to redo the encounters you've already survived every time you die.

Well then what exactly are you complaining about? Encounter difficulty or TNO respawning?

 

[KalosKagathos]

A minor difference, especially if you just have to fight an extra goon again.

In Torment you can eventually suicide run any encounter. If you killed at least one enemy, you made some progress. In games with no respawning, an encounter has to be completed in one go. That's not a minor difference.

Well then what exactly are you complaining about? Encounter difficulty or TNO respawning?

Right now? Respawning. Even without it Torment would be easy, sure, but that's not the subject now.

 

[Xor]

Respawning works in Torment because combat isn't the focus of the game. In a game where combat is the focus, it detracts from the difficulty and encourages suicide tactics.

But of course, not everyone understands this, and that doesn't surprise me. I can't think of any other game that takes the same approach Torment does, exploring the personal story of TNO rather than trying to defeat a big bad and save the world. The subtlety is clearly too much for some people.

 

[Hegel]

Bought 3 copies just to offset the evident faggotry down at Eurogamers.

 

[KalosKagathos]

Respawning works in Torment because combat isn't the focus of the game. In a game where combat is the focus, it detracts from the difficulty and encourages suicide tactics.

But of course, not everyone understands this, and that doesn't surprise me. I can't think of any other game that takes the same approach Torment does, exploring the personal story of TNO rather than trying to defeat a big bad and save the world. The subtlety is clearly too much for some people.

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only combat builds are enjoyable - "Popamole bullshit! An RPG should support multiple playstyles!"

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only charisma builds are enjoyable - "zomg, so subtle! Combatfags just don't get RPGs!"

Point is, Torment is a bizarre evil twin of the Bloodlines sewers, stretched out to the full game length. Bloodlines is a game that gets called out for blatantly favoring certain builds, repeatedly. Torment is a game that gets blowjobs for the exact same thing.

 

[Hegel]

Respawning works in Torment because combat isn't the focus of the game. In a game where combat is the focus, it detracts from the difficulty and encourages suicide tactics.

But of course, not everyone understands this, and that doesn't surprise me. I can't think of any other game that takes the same approach Torment does, exploring the personal story of TNO rather than trying to defeat a big bad and save the world. The subtlety is clearly too much for some people.

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only combat builds are enjoyable - "Popamole bullshit! An RPG should support multiple playstyles!"

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only charisma builds are enjoyable - "zomg, so subtle! Combatfags just don't get RPGs!"

Point is, Torment is a bizarre evil twin of the Bloodlines sewers, stretched out to the full game length. Bloodlines is a game that gets called out for blatantly favoring certain builds, repeatedly. Torment is a game that gets blowjobs for the exact same thing.

No, you're bashing like a retard.
What made Torment good was the fact the entire game was built around that particular feature and with different approaches in mind.

The sewers part of Bloodlines instead were bad simply because they were, the quality contrast with other parts of the game was evident along with the massive design flaws which affected that particular subarea.

Want a counterproof? Take the crackhouse quest, it was action driven for the most part but nonetheless enjoyable.

Point is: Bloodlines isn't called out because it favours certain builds. The game is picked upon because of the flaws the last third of the game possesses.
At that point it becomes totally unplayable for builds other than the typical stealth/firearms/melee trinity, it turns into a FPS.


You can finish Torment no matter what build you're using, ofc a low wisdom/int character is better, smarter people are always more successful. Try playing the last third of Bloodlines with a fully diplomat Toreador and no attack skills.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Respawning works in Torment because combat isn't the focus of the game. In a game where combat is the focus, it detracts from the difficulty and encourages suicide tactics.

But of course, not everyone understands this, and that doesn't surprise me. I can't think of any other game that takes the same approach Torment does, exploring the personal story of TNO rather than trying to defeat a big bad and save the world. The subtlety is clearly too much for some people.

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only combat builds are enjoyable - "Popamole bullshit! An RPG should support multiple playstyles!"

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only charisma builds are enjoyable - "zomg, so subtle! Combatfags just don't get RPGs!"

Point is, Torment is a bizarre evil twin of the Bloodlines sewers, stretched out to the full game length. Bloodlines is a game that gets called out for blatantly favoring certain builds, repeatedly. Torment is a game that gets blowjobs for the exact same thing.

I've never heard anyone praise Torment's structure as being the model that other crpgs should copy. It's blatantly a charisma/wisdom-favouring game with poor combat (although it does have some neat extra stuff for the other builds, it's just that you need to play it at least once with a wis/cha/int build to see most of the story and content). BUT (a) there just aren't many games out like that, so it's not really a problem - call me when we're overloaded with cha/wis/int story+character-focused games done as character studies rather than 'defeat the foozle' and I'll join you in complaining. So far we've got one, only about 50 or so to go.

And (b) it does that style of game really really well. I certainly wouldn't criticise a game that did combat as well as PS:T did story.

In fact, many people here DO praise games that do combat as well as PS:T do story. JA2 and Wizy8 are pure combat-and-strategy-fests. No character studies and 'what can change the nature of a man' philosoraptory there. Just combat. And folks here love them some JA2 and Wiz8.

There's no hard and fast rules wherein 'x game has x focus, therefore it sucks' - it's always theoretically possible that a game can be so good at its narrow focus that it bucks the system. PS:T, Wiz8 and JA2 all do that.

 

[KalosKagathos]

No, you're bashing like a retard.

Except I'm not. Torment is good for what it is: a visual novel. Not as good as Type Moon games, due to it being much more linear, but still OK.

What made Torment good was the fact the entire game was built around that particular feature and with different approaches in mind.

What are these different approaches you speak of? High Charisma, high Intelligence, high Wisdom is the only way to play Torment. You'll miss a ton of content if you do otherwise and will gain nothing in return. Again, how's it any better than being forced to go the combat route in other, less elite RPGs?

Point is: Bloodlines isn't called out because it favours certain builds. The game is picked upon because of the flaws the last third of the game possesses.
At that point it becomes totally unplayable for builds other than the typical stealth/firearms/melee trinity, it turns into a FPS.

OBJECTION! The highlighted parts in the witness' testimony are clearly contradictory, your honor.

You can finish Torment no matter what build you're using, ofc a low wisdom/int character is better, smarter people are always more successful. Try playing the last third of Bloodlines with a fully diplomat Toreador and no attack skills.

I've never heard anyone praise Torment's structure as being the model that other crpgs should copy. It's blatantly a charisma/wisdom-favouring game with poor combat (although it does have some neat extra stuff for the other builds, it's just that you need to play it at least once with a wis/cha/int build to see most of the story and content). BUT (a) there just aren't many games out like that, so it's not really a problem - call me when we're overloaded with cha/wis/int story+character-focused games done as character studies rather than 'defeat the foozle' and I'll join you in complaining. So far we've got one, only about 50 or so to go.

In the first sentence of the paragraph you say that Torment is not an example to follow unquestionably. Then you spend the rest of the paragraph dreaming about more games exactly like Torment.

And (b) it does that style of game really really well. I certainly wouldn't criticise a game that did combat as well as PS:T did story.

What's exceptional about it? Put points in mental stats -> click on long dialogue options that appear spontaneously as a result -> get story.

In fact, many people here DO praise games that do combat as well as PS:T do story. JA2 and Wizy8 are pure combat-and-strategy-fests. No character studies and 'what can change the nature of a man' philosoraptory there. Just combat. And folks here love them some JA2 and Wiz8.

There's no hard and fast rules wherein 'x game has x focus, therefore it sucks' - it's always theoretically possible that a game can be so good at its narrow focus that it bucks the system. PS:T, Wiz8 and JA2 all do that.

Read Xor's post to which I originally replied. Does it seem to you like he'd put crude, unsophisticated brawling of Wizardry on par with eloquent subtleties of Torment?

 

[Xor]

I'm not much into combat, so I don't praise Wiz8. Doesn't mean I bash it for lacking a complex narrative with detailed characters.

Anyway, you clearly have your mind set on what makes a good game, and any arguing we do here isn't going to change your mind. Just know that your opinion is the minority here. If you are going to tell us that Torment sucks, you better have a damn good argument (protip: saying it sucks because the combat sucks is not going to get you very far).

 

[KalosKagathos]

I actually said that I liked Torment in the above post. My gripe isn't people liking games that I dislike, or vice versa, it's people being shamelessly inconsistent in their likes and dislikes and displaying double standards. You either enjoy non-linear games that support multiple approaches, OR you enjoy Planescape: Torment. Pick one. You can pick both, of course, but bloody acknowledge you enjoy them for different reasons then.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

I actually said that I liked Torment in the above post. My gripe isn't people liking games that I dislike, or vice versa, it's people being shamelessly inconsistent in their likes and dislikes and displaying double standards. You either enjoy non-linear games that support multiple approaches, OR you enjoy Planescape: Torment. Pick one. You can pick both, of course, but bloody acknowledge you enjoy them for different reasons then.

This whole discussion started with me. Right?

I enjoy both. For different reasons. That was why I said they are "not getting it". They are not getting the reason for the treating of death in the game. Especially if they call it casual because thats not the fucking point in the game.

So, blame Eurogamer, but don't blame the codex.

 

[Serious_Business]

Spirit Meter was a pretty good moron detector.

turd detector, amirite?

You are quite right, my good negroid.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Respawning works in Torment because combat isn't the focus of the game. In a game where combat is the focus, it detracts from the difficulty and encourages suicide tactics.

But of course, not everyone understands this, and that doesn't surprise me. I can't think of any other game that takes the same approach Torment does, exploring the personal story of TNO rather than trying to defeat a big bad and save the world. The subtlety is clearly too much for some people.

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only combat builds are enjoyable - "Popamole bullshit! An RPG should support multiple playstyles!"

Typical Codex reaction to an RPG where only charisma builds are enjoyable - "zomg, so subtle! Combatfags just don't get RPGs!"

Typical Codex reaction to one other Codexer saying something they disapprove of - "why do all Codexers except me think this??? Why am I the only sane man?

"

 

[Metro]

Sounds better than Mothership Zeta and Operation Anchorage, at least.

That means next to nothing, though.

So true.

 

[KalosKagathos]

Typical Codex reaction to one other Codexer saying something they disapprove of - "why do all Codexers except me think this??? Why am I the only sane man?

"

Touche. Guess I am guilty of extrapolation here.

 

[space odyssey]

Parroting VD is a good moron indicator.

And type moon?

 

[Stainless Veteran]

No, you're bashing like a retard.

Except I'm not. Torment is good for what it is: a visual novel. Not as good as Type Moon games, due to it being much more linear, but still OK.

Ah, Type Moon, creator of games where can you can fuck King Arthur, who looks like this:

Clearly, a superior game in all aspects.

 

[treave]

Well, its choices do have actual consequences.

And it's certainly less linear than PST.

Perhaps you may want to bring up the art factor, no?

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Well, its choices do have actual consequences.

And it's certainly less linear than PST.

Perhaps you may want to bring up the art factor, no?

Its choices are branching paths

Branching is not the same as Choices and Consequences since it still leads you on another predetermined path. There are no details changed.

 

[treave]

Well, its choices do have actual consequences.

And it's certainly less linear than PST.

Perhaps you may want to bring up the art factor, no?

Its choices are branching paths

Branching is not the same as Choices and Consequences since it still leads you on another predetermined path. There are no details changed.

I stand corrected.

So, just curious, does a quest path along the lines of "if I opt to do option A, this will give quest B outcome C" offer real choice and consequence, by your definition?

 

[IronicNeurotic]

I stand corrected.

So, just curious, does a quest path along the lines of "if I opt to do option A, this will give quest B outcome C" offer real choice and consequence, by your definition?

That depends on what Outcome C would mean for the narrative/game.

 

[treave]

I stand corrected.

So, just curious, does a quest path along the lines of "if I opt to do option A, this will give quest B outcome C" offer real choice and consequence, by your definition?

That depends on what Outcome C would mean for the narrative/game.

What if, say, getting 10 outcome Cs from various quests B1, B2, B3 and so on and so forth will allow you to join faction D, thus giving you endgame E?

Many dating sims have several routes, and often at least two endings for each one. It doesn't make them superior to PS:T.

No it doesn't, because generally the plot is a bit... well... lacking. Type-Moon is of course no different. Nasu loves his long-winded, overcomplicated 'deep' writing even more than MCA.

But I see nothing inherently wrong with a tranny King Arthur.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Well, its choices do have actual consequences.

And it's certainly less linear than PST.

Perhaps you may want to bring up the art factor, no?

Many dating sims have several routes, and often at least two endings for each one. It doesn't make them superior to PS:T.

 

[Felix]

lol Typemoon herp Engrish derp, derp mythical figures derp hurr tried too hard to be cool and deep durr

The whole "let's make famous male historical figures into little girls" trend probably started with this shit.