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Game News NovaCity thoughts from Joseph Hewitt

Saint_Proverbius

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Tags: Joseph Hewitt; NovaCity

<b>Joseph Hewitt</b> discusses <b>NovaCity</b>'s design on the <A href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gearhead_dev">Gearhead Development Yahoo Group</a>. Here's the rather long thoughts on the subject:
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<blockquote>First of all, I'm hoping to keep NovaCity as simple as possible. Play will be organized into "issues", each of which covers a single day in the hero's life. The main interface will be a map of the city, from which you can click on buildings to enter them.
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One building will be the PC's headquarters, which starts as a simple apartment but which maybe can later be upgraded to a fortress of solitude or somesuch. Here the PC can rest for an hour to regain HP, call other superheroes for backup, watch TV or listen to the police scanner to find out where the action is, and so on. The PC can use money to buy additional equipment to make his HQ more useful.
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Another building will be the PC's office. This is where the PC makes money. Usually, the PC must visit the office once a day and spend 8 valuable hours working there. If the PC skips work too often he'll lose the job and be forced to get a different one. Every once in a while the PC will be given a special job-related plot, depending upon what kind of job he has. Good jobs might include reporter, scientist, and police officer.
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Other buildings will usually be empty. Visiting them does nothing but waste a precious hour from the PC's day. Certain buildings will be linked to plots. Every day, a number of plots will be generated. There'll always be one plot involving a super-villain from the PC's rogues gallery, plus maybe additional plots involving the PC's girlfriend/boyfriend, his job, "guest villains", and whatever other complications he has in his life.
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These plots aren't exactly like GearHead plots. They don't contain scripts themselves; instead they'll contain directions for constructing the random scenario that'll be generated when the PC enters the plot's location. I'm planning to use descriptors similar to those used by the XRAN plots in gearhead for stringing plots together into a longer storyline, which will span over several days. Unfortunately I don't know what these descriptors should be yet... I'm hoping to figure that out soon.
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Example of a single plot: The PC finds out that Sumo-Basho has attacked a lab. Going there, the PC fights many of his thugs, eventually finding Sumo-Basho and a professor. Sumo-Basho tells the PC that he doesn't have time to fight; he and the professor disappear/fly away/tunnel through the floor/etc, leaving the PC to fight Sumo-Basho's henchmen. If the PC wins the fight the last henchman defeated tells him where Sumo-Basho has taken the prof; this will be the scene for the next day's plot. Alternatively, before that, the PC could have used Listening to eavesdrop on some thugs to find the same information; he could have used Mind Reading to find out; maybe there could be other ways to find out as well. In any case, discovering where to go next shouldn't be absolutely dependant upon winning the fight against the bad guy at the end of the level. The next day, in the continuation of this plot, the PC may be able to rescue the professor... or maybe Sumo Basho has gone to steal parts for a machine he's forcing the professor to make... or maybe Sumo Basho has somehow transformed the professor into a new super-villain who will then fight the PC. I haven't yet decided on an appropriate mechanism for deciding whether a plot should continue on or conclude. For ace.pas I decided upon a self-limiting series of component descriptors; this may be how it works in NovaCity as well, once I've sorted out the descriptors.
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The plots control the overall direction of the story, while the scenario generator controls the exact contents of the story, and feeds back the PC's progress to the plot. I think this is potentially a powerful technique if I can get it to work well.
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When a scenario is exited it cannot be entered again; at least, not in the same form. If the PC leaves the lab to go take a rest by the time he returns Sumo-Basho will already be gone and the PC will have no way to catch him today. If the PC loses an episode, the next day he should have a chance to find out where the next part is taking place... Maybe by going to the police station and interviewing a captured henchman, or just sitting at home until something comes up on the news.
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The scenario generator uses "megalists" to hopefully create random puzzles (amazing... even when I'm not creating a superheroes game, the terms I come up with to describe my creations still sound like something Jack Kirby would have said). Check out ace.pas in the GearHead source to see some of my previous work on this... if you can understand that. Even better take a look at the NovaCity source since that actually works. Here's the idea: The megalist starts with some end-condition. Complications are added on top of this end-condition, displacing existing lines in the script. For example, I can add a locked door to the scenario. This locked door throws a "key" complication. The complication selected may just place the key in a room, then throw a "guard" complication to guard it. Alternatively it might give the key to an NPC, who then throws a "quest" complication before he gives it to the PC.
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Components are selected based on the requested type (key, quest, guard, etc) and also by the plot's description (similar to the fragment desc from ace.pas) which contains information about the plot's XRAN descriptors, plus information from the super-villain (style of caper) and location (a plot in a bank should have different components than a plot that happens at the park).
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Ideally the PC should be able to finish the game through a heroic path, through a villainous path, or maybe even through a career path. An idea I had for the ending of the heroic path is for the PC to join NovaCity's elite superheroes team; in order to do this he must defeat the five top members in combat. To make things interesting, every time the PC finishes the game in this way, his character becomes the new #1 member of the super-team and the #5 member is booted off the list. Because of the paper-rock-scissors nature of superhero combat this doesn't nessecarily mean that the PC must advance further each time to win the game. To win the villainous track the PC might have to do the same thing with the leadership of the crime syndicate.
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I don't really like that this makes the ending of both paths effectively the same. Another idea I had for the ending of the heroic path is that in the climactic adventure you save the world. The problem with this idea is... What do I do about the villainous ending? They get to destroy the world? That won't (nessecarily) work...
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Another thing to think about is how to describe the character's personality traits. From my experience with GearHead I'm convinced that for a random-content game this is a nessecity. However, I'm not certain that the traits I used in GearHead would be the best here... Nor am I certain that a sliding scale from -100 to +100 is the way to go. I'm thinking about a set of opposed traits, like Humorous vs. Morbid, and a set of quirks that can be applied to a character like "Insane", or "Scientist". The list of traits shouldn't be too long since all the trait-based-line writing that I'm now doing for GearHead is driving me batty, and anything more than seven different versions of the same line is madness-inducing.
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I think that's enough rambling for tonight. If you've actually made it through all this text, I thank you. Let me know what you think and feel free to suggest ideas. As I'm still in the planning stage any of this is subject to change.</blockquote>
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I'm not so sure the idea of the superhero earning money with a mandatory 40 hour a week job will work. Villians don't need jobs, they make money just being villians. While a superhero probably can't expect to make money being a hero the same way, an anti-hero type probably could by keeping what he gets from the beaten villian. A noble superhero, though, would be stuck with a lot of non-superheroing downtime with a 40 hour a week job if he wants to make money.
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Vault Dweller

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Ideally the PC should be able to finish the game through a heroic path, through a villainous path, or maybe even through a career path. An idea I had for the ending of the heroic path is for the PC to join NovaCity's elite superheroes team; in order to do this he must defeat the five top members in combat. ... To win the villainous track the PC might have to do the same thing with the leadership of the crime syndicate.

I don't really like that this makes the ending of both paths effectively the same.
My 2 cents: why won't you go with the Assassins (the movie) plot for the "villainous" path? You are a new villain trying to become numero uno, but you do it not "fair and square"-style by challenging and defeating the top 5, but by sabotaging the number 1, trying to steal his ideas, get credits for his work, ruin and take over his plans.

Using your example with Sumo-Basho, a bad PC would try not to rescue, but to steal the professor for himself, even if the bad PC doesn't really know what to do with him, hire the thugs by promising better opportunities, etc.
 

EEVIAC

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Saint said:
I'm not so sure the idea of the superhero earning money with a mandatory 40 hour a week job will work.

If its mandatory, then probably not. Some characters need their secret identities, but there should be options for merits that provide an "Inheritance" of some sort, whether that be money or equipment from a former superhero relative.

Villians don't need jobs, they make money just being villians. While a superhero probably can't expect to make money being a hero the same way, an anti-hero type probably could by keeping what he gets from the beaten villian. A noble superhero, though, would be stuck with a lot of non-superheroing downtime with a 40 hour a week job if he wants to make money.

A noble hero wouldn't care about money though. Most of his crime fighting equipment could be acquired from saved scientists or the city. The biggest problem I have with the work-week thing is that a dimensional scanner is going to cost a lot more than a 9 to 5 can generate in 50 years. The really good HQ equipment should be integrated into plot (or side plot,) rather than being a result of having clicked on the work building a few dozen times.
 

Stark

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I'm more interested in hearing how he plans to implement the scenario generator (that he described). It's a very challenging task. Even a simple scenario generator that spans 2-3 days would be hell to implement, and I do not think it scales well--> a plot that spans more than a few days... the events towards the end few days may totally not sync with what happened in the first few days, and the story get totally ridiculous/illogical.

I would think he should allow ability to include hand crafted scenarios in his game: so if scenario generator fails for longer scenarios there's always the hand crafted ones to fall back on.
 

Human Shield

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Sounds fantastic, what superhero style is it going to be? More akin to campy Freedom Force style or modern City of Heroes style.

The best way to use secret identities would probably a "sanity" meter, or some such. It allows them to interact with normal people. Generated co-workers could probably become targets for villains.

Some questions:
Is fame or such tracked for your hero? Can hours be set aside for patrolling the streets? How will movement powers like flying or teleport factor in? Will there be any "non-powered" heroes?

I'd really like to see good and evil options open and have the player choose how to use his powers. The game cries for a random origin generator where you start human and an accident changes to.
 

Stark

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some additional random elements that can be put in:

office romance, where the gal in your office falls for you and in a random mission is kidnapped. Classic rescue the damsel in distress mission. The romance option is reset if you loses a job (for skipping the work too often) and need to look for a new one. I'm suggesting this to make the required office work slightly more relevant to gameplay.
 

pyrrho12

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Saint_Proverbius said:
I'm not so sure the idea of the superhero earning money with a mandatory 40 hour a week job will work. Villians don't need jobs, they make money just being villians.
The job won't be mandatory, but it will likely be the easiest way to earn money in the game (for heroes and starting villains, at least). I decided that I wanted money and employment in the game in order to model the tension between heroic life and private life that exists in many superhero comics. Other ways to earn money could include corporate sponsorship (in the Mystery Men comic, both heroes and villains were sponsored by companies), grants provided by generous donors (potentially a lot of money but not something you'll want to depend on), and... um... I don't know. Winning the lottery?

Vault Dweller said:
My 2 cents: why won't you go with the Assassins (the movie) plot for the "villainous" path? You are a new villain trying to become numero uno, but you do it not "fair and square"-style by challenging and defeating the top 5, but by sabotaging the number 1, trying to steal his ideas, get credits for his work, ruin and take over his plans.
Good idea. I'll have to think a lot more about the game's conclusion, and about things for characters of all types to do. The idea of sabotaging/stealing the plans of other villains is good because it means that, in some cases, I'll be able to use the same plots for both heroes and villains.

EEVIAC said:
Some characters need their secret identities, but there should be options for merits that provide an "Inheritance" of some sort, whether that be money or equipment from a former superhero relative.
...
The biggest problem I have with the work-week thing is that a dimensional scanner is going to cost a lot more than a 9 to 5 can generate in 50 years.
As noted above, I wanted to add jobs so that there'll be a tension between normal life and heroic adventure. I think an "inheritance" advantage is a good idea, allowing people to live comfortably without a job if they're willing to sacrifice some XP/power for it.

In order to get the really expensive equipment (without inheritance, lottery tickets, or corporate sponsorship), the character will have to work diligently at the job, not miss any days, and eventually work their way to the top. People like Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark have no problems buying anything they want... on the other hand, people like Peter Parker and John Constantine sometimes have trouble finding bus fare.

Stark said:
I'm more interested in hearing how he plans to implement the scenario generator (that he described). It's a very challenging task. Even a simple scenario generator that spans 2-3 days would be hell to implement, and I do not think it scales well--> a plot that spans more than a few days... the events towards the end few days may totally not sync with what happened in the first few days, and the story get totally ridiculous/illogical.
The generator I'm planning is based on markov chains and reader-response literary theory. As long as the components selected fit together fairly well, the player can provide the closure needed to turn them into a coherent story. I think the XRAN plot system in GearHead works fairly well; the components don't segue into each other nicely but their overall progression is fairly logical.

The big question right now is how to describe the components, so that the random generator can pick appropriate ones to build a scenario.

Human Shield said:
Sounds fantastic, what superhero style is it going to be? More akin to campy Freedom Force style or modern City of Heroes style.
I'm aiming for something humorous but not comedic. My favorite superhero comic of all time was Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol, so I'll probably try to keep that kind of tone (though minus the surrealism).

You posted a number of other good questions, but the answers to all of them are "I don't know yet".

- JH.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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The big problem I see with jobs is offering the incentive to be Peter Parker of John Constantine over Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. Also, the good and bad of having a job that relates to your superhero status, like Peter Parker taking pictures of himself as Spiderman for money, versus having a totally unrelated job to being a superhero.

Clark Kent has it pretty easy. He gets to use the Daily Planet as a resource for finding out where Superman needs to be to save the day, and he can then write about it and keep his job. He really doesn't need to worry about an 8 hour day 5 days per week. He can be the reporter covering Superman, save the day while at work, and still make money that way.

Now, if Clark Kent were a fry cook at Joe's Slop House, he might have a problem.

There are lots of professions that would be great for a superhero to have. Something in criminal justice like a cop or a lawyer would allow the superhero access to breaking events and he could still do the superhero thing at the same time. Journalism seems to be a pretty common theme in comic books, with Clark Kent and Peter Parker opting for that. Being a fireman or an EMT would be good for superhero out to save lives. Military service would be a pretty good thing for a superhero with the national guard getting called in on most major distasters and emergencies.

However, what about the careers which would conflict with the superhero's duty as a superhero? What would be there to make someone take one of those over the jobs that are in line with that position? Or just being born rich? Or being a villian that makes money robbing and looting?
 

AlanC9

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How does the system balance other aspects of character development, like stats and powers? Career choice could just plug into that mechanism.
 

Human Shield

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Thanks for the reply pyrrho12, glad to see sponsorship as an option.

For style I sugguest reading Astro City, it is basically neo-classical superhero style: crazy costumes, inventions, and powers all blended into a realistic world with real human characters, I'd like to see something along those lines. It shouldn't be humorous enough to make a player's character into a joke or villian threats into a gag, if you're including a day-job it doesn't seem like you like you want to remove all gritty/realistic elements.

This game will really break into new territory if done right, has a large potential audience too.

I'd include multiple endings, some heroes never join a league. If a hero gets famous enough and is able to clean up a certain area enough the ending would show him continuing the fight. If the hero has a vendetta against crime after doing enough in Nova city the ending would show him moving on.

If you want previous player characters to stay around, news reports with altered names would work during the next character.
 

pyrrho12

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Saint_Proverbius said:
The big problem I see with jobs is offering the incentive to be Peter Parker of John Constantine over Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.
There wouldn't be so much of an incentive to be Peter Parker, as there would be the opportunity to not work as hard at your job as you might. Maybe advancement in your job can be seen as a bonus to good players who can afford to waste the time needed? I agree with you that I'm going to have to balance jobs well or they're really going to suck.

Also, the good and bad of having a job that relates to your superhero status, like Peter Parker taking pictures of himself as Spiderman for money, versus having a totally unrelated job to being a superhero.
I think every job offered in the game should offer superhero-related benefits. If you work at a newspaper or police office, you'll get leads on what the villains are doing. If you work at a lab, you might occasionally invent useful gadgets. If you work in the military, you might get bonus XP from working.

AlanC9 said:
How does the system balance other aspects of character development, like stats and powers? Career choice could just plug into that mechanism.
I'm still thinking about that. One thing I've considered is doing away with skills altogether- the PC's non-superpower abilities would be based entirely upon his stats. Superman would have incredible Strength and Toughness; Batman would have incredible Presence, Reflexes, and Technical ability. The PnP game "Mutants and Masterminds" is nearly like this: skills exist as an artifact of the d20 system, but most characters just spend a point to "activate" the skill and then put the rest of their points into the relevant super-attribute.

The current stats are Strength, Dexterity, Toughness, Speed, Awareness, Technical, Presence, and Aura. These are subject to change as the game is developed.

Human Shield said:
For style I sugguest reading Astro City, it is basically neo-classical superhero style
Unfortunately I live in Korea, and western comic books are hard to come by.

I'd include multiple endings
Multiple endings are always good.

- JH.
 

AlanC9

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pyrrho12 said:
One thing I've considered is doing away with skills altogether- the PC's non-superpower abilities would be based entirely upon his stats. Superman would have incredible Strength and Toughness; Batman would have incredible Presence, Reflexes, and Technical ability. The PnP game "Mutants and Masterminds" is nearly like this: skills exist as an artifact of the d20 system, but most characters just spend a point to "activate" the skill and then put the rest of their points into the relevant super-attribute.

The current stats are Strength, Dexterity, Toughness, Speed, Awareness, Technical, Presence, and Aura. These are subject to change as the game is developed.

Stats, skills, whatever. It's just a way to describe abilities. As long as you get the level of granularity you want.

You could add a straight-up Wealth stat. Though this would obscure the distinction between Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark (they're both rich, but Stark has to show up for work and Wayne really doesn't).

Does Awareness encompass both perception and deduction?
 

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The only real problem with having mundane skills being wrapped up in attributes are cases where the superhero might not have the attributes for what they can do, but through work and developing an ability, they can do something exceptionally. Also, some villians/heroes might have much, much greater attributes than their abilities show. For example, Sabertooth nearly always gets his ass kicked by Wolverine in hand to hand, but Sabertooth is much stronger. Spiderman often whips the snot out of The Rhino as well. In fact, there's probably a lot of cases where a weaker hero beats up a stronger villian just because they're better fighters.
 

pyrrho12

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Saint_Proverbius said:
The only real problem with having mundane skills being wrapped up in attributes are cases where the superhero might not have the attributes for what they can do, but through work and developing an ability
Well, I did have another idea: eliminate stats and go entirely with skills. Like the stats, most of these skills would still be fairly broad. There'd be an attack skill, a defense skill, possibly skills that affect HP and MP. All characters would have the same basic abilities (vision range, action points, attack damage) unless modified by super-powers (super-senses, super-speed, or super-strength in these cases). Having a power like Super-Strength or Super-Speed wouldn't affect your skill rolls. The advantage is that it should be easier to balance this kind of system than a system in which stats and skills apply to the same rolls; the downside is that not having a stat-line to describe your character might feel weird.

- JH.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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I wouldn't eliminate either, but I would separate attributes, skills, and super powers in to three distinct things. It might not be so bad to have super powers fairly distinct from the beginning and only have minor adjustments to them as the game progresses.

Maybe you can have an add-on type system where super powers become margainally enhanced, but typically, most superheroes are genesis'ed with their powers. Maybe an add-on system might be in tune with the starting powers and allow unlocking of additional features of said powers, like super-vision/perception might later turn in to X-Ray vision or some such. However, when you think about it, Superman only developed weaknesses as time went by. Captain America also lost his enhanced strength, even though his strength was still pretty high but he had to work out constantly to maintain it.
 

Gwendo

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[off-topic]I wish you could develop DeadCold.......... [/off-topic]
 

pyrrho12

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Exitium said:
Wouldn't that system you propose be entirely too similar to Final Fantasy 8?
Since the super-powers stay with individual characters and can't be traded around like GFs, I hope not... but I do see your point. Without stats it's difficult to see how one character differs from another.

Saint_Proverbius said:
I wouldn't eliminate either, but I would separate attributes, skills, and super powers in to three distinct things. It might not be so bad to have super powers fairly distinct from the beginning and only have minor adjustments to them as the game progresses.
That was another thought: maybe start the character with all the power they're ever going to get, but they have to learn control through experience. For this to work there'd have to be situations in which inexperience + super powers = disaster.

Another way to get around power increases is to start the PC at rougly half the power level he'll be at the end of the game, rather than at some much smaller fraction as happens in many other RPGs.

Gwendo said:
[off-topic]I wish you could develop DeadCold.......... [/off-topic]
Work on DC2 is progressing, but at a snail's pace. The original DeadCold code is just so bad that it's difficult to pick the good pieces out. Also, I plan to use megalists in the random level generator. NovaCity is my test to make sure that's actually a good idea.

I'm sure DeadCold-2 will be released sometime before GenRogue, or even Fallout: Online.

- JH.[/i]
 

EEVIAC

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pyrrho said:
For this to work there'd have to be situations in which inexperience + super powers = disaster.

Or massive success. If you're going to use power sources for all the super powers, maybe powers could be advanced only when a character is exposed to a source of whichever power is pertinent. A mutant power could develop from exposure to radiation on a space station rescue, power armour could be fundamentally improved through high-tech research (only available at a top secret govermental lab,) mystics could advance in power through contact with a Divine source. There's also the opposite, situations where the characters powers will be rendered virtually useless. Anti-magic zones in a robot invasion force's HQ, or a high-magic dimension where tech doesn't work. The player would then have to rely on their attributes and skills.
 

Gwendo

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Work on DC2 is progressing, but at a snail's pace. The original DeadCold code is just so bad that it's difficult to pick the good pieces out. Also, I plan to use megalists in the random level generator. NovaCity is my test to make sure that's actually a good idea.

Sure DeadCold had it's downfalls, but it was the concept I really enjoyed. I really liked the interface, the theme, the combat system (what it tryed to do, not exactly what was achieved. Lot's of potential).

About NovaCity, I've played the demo. Well, I was expecting something in the line of GearHead (ASCII-game), not this 3D game. After reading the whole text first, I was hyped, after looking at the demo, I'm not anymore. But that's me. I prefer an ASCII interface then a very poor looking 3D game with poor controls. Of course I have in mind that this is just an early demo, but still...

Anyway: Give life to your DC2 project! (Please? :wink: )
 

pyrrho12

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Gwendo said:
...a very poor looking 3D game with poor controls. Of course I have in mind that this is just an early demo, but still...

Anyway: Give life to your DC2 project! (Please? :wink: )
Apparently I have even more work to do on NovaCity than I initially thought, so it may be much longer before I can get around to DeadCold.
 

Balor

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About 3D vs ASCII - I, too, tried d/ling Gearhead SDL - but returned to DOS version, for the very same reasons. No graphics (expecially crappy one, sorry to put it bluntly) can replace emagination. Isometric view also, hmm, restricting, so on, so forth.
But it's your game, so do what you want to :). That's because such games are so fun to play - because people put 'a part of their soul' inside it, so to speak - while commersial monsters are made after a marketing research, by people who work for money, and for one reason only - to get it sold. It doesn't mean that all games that are not free are bad - it's seening them as a way to earn money, not a piece of art - is.
 

Gwendo

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pyrrho12 said:
Gwendo said:
...a very poor looking 3D game with poor controls. Of course I have in mind that this is just an early demo, but still...

Anyway: Give life to your DC2 project! (Please? :wink: )
Apparently I have even more work to do on NovaCity than I initially thought, so it may be much longer before I can get around to DeadCold.

Hey, keep in mind that I'm not criticizing NovaSpace because of DeadCold. And reading a second time what I wrote, I'm sorry if my words were a little bit... raw. But keep in mind that graphical and tiled rogue-likes never had as much sucess as the traditional ASCII ones... And that's for a good reason.

When we have ASCII, the world and characters are all in our imagination, so our imgination is the limit of how good is the game. If you put graphics on it, it can only loose a lot.

When playing NovaCity, I was just clicking around, everything looking the same, just clicking in the enemies direction and that's it. No strategy, no control (I didn't realize if this was turn based or real time. And if turn based, how many squares can our characters move per turn, and the enemies?

Let me tell you that if NC is done right, I don't mind waiting for DC2. And since this is an hobby, do what pleases you most. :wink:
 

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