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Now THAT was a good evil choice, if a bit metagamey

deuxhero

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Flowery Land
I was playing the PoR:R module (as a LE fighter who I intend to take into Blackguard), the first thing I noticed is that I have some AI adventurers (who he had intimidated into his service!) who I can't trade equpment with or take control of, as party members in the first quest. After a bit of fighting I noticed that one of them had fallen (not that I really needed him, my PC and one companion handled themselfs just fine), so I looked at his corpse, he had some fairly good equipment (at least for this point) and I had an evil/brilliant idea (even if more then one villain has overdone it) my PC and NPC stood back in the next encounter and left the nameless adventures to die in the goblin hoards, then after they had all fallen, finish the goblins off himself. I ended that mission with quite a bit of loot (but given that I won the battle, wouldn't the proper term be spoils?). The sad thing is, doing this felt significantly better as an "evil" path then any "evil" option that had been implemented in any game I have played so far. My fighter didn't act like a sociopath and threaten to kill everyone he met, or ask for more money for risking his life, but it truely felt as though my PC was evil (not to mention falling into the good is rewarded good, while evil gets worthless gold instead of a powerful item issue)

So basicl;y the wall of text makes me ask one question, what are some good "evil" actions that aren't stupid?
 

Badgermaster

Educated
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Apr 28, 2008
Messages
93
deuxhero said:
So basicl;y the wall of text makes me ask one question, what are some good "evil" actions that aren't stupid?

Are you looking for examples from elsewhere, or original ideas, or both?
 
Joined
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Messages
3,001
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Treading water, but at least it's warm
ive no idea what youre talking about, but im pretty sure fallout 2 has some of the best moments of evil scumbucketry you can involve yourself in.

What other games lets you get caught humping some poor farm girl, get caught be her old man, get shotgun wedded, realize the terrible fix youre in as she totally sucks and clings hard and doesnt put out no more, sell her into slavery (what a way to conclude a divorce), then report back to the old man (after learning he has a heart condition and stealing his pills) and laugh maniacally when he reacts to the news of his daughter by dying on the spot.

priceless.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,939
ME allows you to watch entire groups get destroyed. It also allows you to be flat our racist, and REWARDS YOU FOR IT. Pretty much unheard of in modern society where you make one insensitive racial slur, youa r ebranded for life.

JE allows you to damn people for an eternity.

NWN1 OC allows you to find an innocent man guilty, and bring disease to innocent 'barbarians' ala Europeans doing it to Indians.

THAT is EVIL.
 

Lupo

Novice
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
3
Well, Arcanum lets you destroy all life in the world. In three different ways.
 

Korgan

Arbiter
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DF lets you drown unwanted immigrants in lava. And Dominions 3 lets you sacrifice hundreds of virgins to summon world-destroying archdevils.
 

Lupo

Novice
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
3
inwoker said:
1)join kerghan.
what other ways?
There's a dialog that Drog restored that lets you do it without Kerghan, and another that lets you become an evil god.
 

DiverNB

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
472
Volourn said:
ME allows you to watch entire groups get destroyed. It also allows you to be flat our racist, and REWARDS YOU FOR IT. Pretty much unheard of in modern society where you make one insensitive racial slur, youa r ebranded for life.

JE allows you to damn people for an eternity.

NWN1 OC allows you to find an innocent man guilty, and bring disease to innocent 'barbarians' ala Europeans doing it to Indians.

THAT is EVIL.

Also lets you exterminate an entire race.

That whole scene actually chilled me because it felt like real, prejudice evil.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Heh. I duno. It was one those rare 'hard decisions' I had to make in ME. If only Shepard had a prior encounter before Noveria where Rachni are really an active menace than a mindless bio-tools of mass destruction, then MAYBE it would a much harder decision to make. But in the Noveria labs, it's not hard to sympathize with the Rachni since she's pretty much used as a tool and had her kids taken away from her. Killing her seems really wrong.

Letting the council die or not wasn't that big of a deal. They were being a jerk all along and expect me to be their dog. If I hadn't done anything and follow them, we'd be doomed; so I'll be stupid to risk the success for a bunch of useless cunts who are more worried about their own control than the fate of the galaxy. Ashley was right on that Hunter's Dog analogy too.

The Feros 'save the infested colonist or kill them all' was okay. But lack any sort of 'pull'. You've met these guys for barely 15 mins, I'm not about to risk my missions for a bunch of 'infesteds'. I chose to just blew them all to hell. If the lead scientist can't be persuaded to cooperate, then too bad. A hole on the head for him. There was no choice.
Let's not even call the 'execute the asarian commando who is freed of mind control' choice an evil one. It was just being ruthlessly stupid. I wanted to take her into custody and interrogate her, not shoot her at the back of the head. But Bioware thought everyone wanted to be THAT sort of badass. A Stupid Badass.
 

Aegeri

Novice
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
39
Location
New Zealand
The problem with the morality as presented by Mass Effect is none of the things you do actually accomplish anything during the game. Fragging all the colonists? Nobody cares. Killing the Rachni Queen, well there are still Rachni out there actually (so much for being extinct...) and one random side-quest planet has a quest to hold off several waves of them attacking a surrounded outpost.

Pretty much nothing you do matters and so you might as flip a coin, it has roughly the same effect on the gameworld. No matter how hideously evil or good you are you still get the same result (criticism from the council, everyone still requiring you to do whatever, your team never really seems to care how depraved or violent you are blah blah).

The only things that have any real effect on you (the character) are shooting wrex in the face (which you don't get to do if you did his family armour side quest anyway) and letting someone die in one highly contrived and honestly predictable "choice" (why not just railroad me up the ass harder Bioware?). I guess we can throw in the trite romance choices here as well if you can be bothered to care about that.

While Mass Effect was fun, I never really felt that being an asshole who killed people for my own goal made a difference to the gameworld/characters. It was just getting renegade points over paragon points.
 

Badgermaster

Educated
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
93
RK47 said:
Heh. I duno. It was one those rare 'hard decisions' I had to make in ME. If only Shepard had a prior encounter before Noveria where Rachni are really an active menace than a mindless bio-tools of mass destruction, then MAYBE it would a much harder decision to make. But in the Noveria labs, it's not hard to sympathize with the Rachni since she's pretty much used as a tool and had her kids taken away from her. Killing her seems really wrong.

I chose to do it for a potential ally against the Geth and because I didn't give a flying crap about Council law. Of course, the game gave me Paragon points for it anyway, as if I did it out of the goodness of my own heart and due to a deep and abiding love of all of nature's children, or some such nonsense.

And, if ME2 doesn't take save info from the first game into account, it's a moot point anyway, since the Rachni never came back into play later on...

Letting the council die or not wasn't that big of a deal. They were being a jerk all along and expect me to be their dog. If I hadn't done anything and follow them, we'd be doomed; so I'll be stupid to risk the success for a bunch of useless cunts who are more worried about their own control than the fate of the galaxy. Ashley was right on that Hunter's Dog analogy too.

This may have been the only point in the game where the reasoning behind my decision was actually reflected by the game. The Council wasn't just worthless, they were actually harmful to the combined sentient races of the galaxy. Wiping out that pack of imbeciles so that humanity could fill the power vacuum was clearly the smartest choice that would lead to the greater good of all.

Once again, though... If ME2 doesn't take the savegame into account, then it's still an effectively worthless decision.

The Feros 'save the infested colonist or kill them all' was okay. But lack any sort of 'pull'. You've met these guys for barely 15 mins, I'm not about to risk my missions for a bunch of 'infesteds'. I chose to just blew them all to hell. If the lead scientist can't be persuaded to cooperate, then too bad. A hole on the head for him. There was no choice.
Let's not even call the 'execute the asarian commando who is freed of mind control' choice an evil one. It was just being ruthlessly stupid. I wanted to take her into custody and interrogate her, not shoot her at the back of the head. But Bioware thought everyone wanted to be THAT sort of badass. A Stupid Badass.

This was another situation where the "Paragon" path was simply the "Moron" path.

1) There was no evidence at all that the infection of the colonists was reversible.
2) The only alternative to killing them was to saturate the area with jury-rigged nerve toxin grenades, in the hope that the imprecisely-measured aerosol toxin would only paralyze everyone instead of simply killing them. And of course, neither I nor anyone on my team had environmentally-sealed armor, thus making the risk enormous for a potential benefit that was incredibly unlikely.

Since I felt that my character would have an IQ at least marginally above the single-digit range, I chose to simply kill them.

It was also annoying that the bone-crushingly idiotic and cliched plot of "Greedy Evil Corporation illegally experiments with bioweapons at the expense of innocent civilians" showed up not once, which would have been bad enough, but twice. It's like the game was intentionally trying to commit genocide upon my brain cells. "Aliens" came out in 1986. I've been pretty much done with that plot since.

There were too many situations in the game where one path, either Gud or Eevul, was just incredibly stupid. There were also a few situations where every option available was stupid, such as when you rescue the Blue Girl from the Big Plant Monster, and find out she's been aboard Saren's ship. The only smart decision would have been to bring her back and interrogate her, because she clearly has intelligence that's vital to your mission. Instead you get to choose between "I lets you go nice lady" and "GRR KILL".

Things became frustrating rather quickly for me.

At least I was able to avoid having Shepard hump anyone.

I don't have any particular axe to grind with Bioware, they've made some games I've enjoyed in the past, but I was disappointed with ME.

However, if the writing improves (more intelligent dialogue options available, glaring plot holes filled in), and if the choices made in part 1 effect events in part 2, and if the combat/AI is tweaked to be more enjoyable, I may give the sequel a chance. If not, I'll have to give it a pass.

Guess I'm kind of drifting from the topic of intelligent, non-moustache-twirling evil, though.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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The problem with the morality as presented by Mass Effect is none of the things you do actually accomplish anything during the game.

While true with ME1, since this was a planned trilogy, a bunch of those choices you did in 1 could be well executed in ME2/3. I am hoping Bio does not drop that opportunity.
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Yes let's hope so. However, I'd be excited if they feature Dragon Age with the same Ruthless / Goody options as ME.

Brigand: Stranger, please let me go. I surrender. I was wrong. Please, don't slay me.

Karth: It's your choice, Sir Shepard. I'd say we don't give him a chance to do this again.

Sir Shepard: Never again, scum. *Stab brigand on the chest*

Liana: That was kinda extreme don't you think? He already surrendered.

Rax: Huh, killing is always faster than talking. You elves are always too soft, that's why you never win wars.

Tyrant +2
 

Jaesun

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RK47 said:
Brigand: Stranger, please let me go. I surrender. I was wrong. Please, don't slay me.

Karth: It's your choice, Sir Shepard. I'd say we don't give him a chance to do this again.

Sir Shepard: Never again, scum. *Stab brigand on the chest*

Liana: That was kinda extreme don't you think? He already surrendered.

Rax: Huh, killing is always faster than talking. You elves are always too soft, that's why you never win wars.

Tyrant +2

:lol:

What truly scares me.... what you wrote could quite possibly be in DA :shock:

Though... I'm going to give Gaider the benefit of the doubt. Guess we shall see.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Castle Captain: Ahhh master Shepard. Welcome to the Kingdom of Pyros. Unfortunately we do not allow weapons in these castle walls. Guards, secure their weapons.

Shepard & Friends: *Draws weapons with ZING, Garreth drew his Crossbow*

Shepard: Nobody takes my weapons.

Tyrant +2 ;)
 

Korgan

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5 minutes after the start, Squire Jenkins gets an orcish bolt in the face.
Carth: Oh fuck! Poor kid... what do we do with the body?
Shepard: Frankly, I don't give a fuck. Let's move on.
Carth: WTF? Are you going to leave him here to rot?
Shepard: Hey, you've got a point here! If I want to enslave nations with necromancy, I better get some practice!
Jenkins: BRRAAINNSSS!

Tyrant +30 :D
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
ahahah fuck , i forgotten how bioware handled their tutorials nowadays. sigh...
i still remember NWN 2 starting . Village Burns. You will rise as Hero.

but seeing the dialogue choices i had to :lol:

Some big bully you kicked ass when you were young:
Oh dude, I'm hurt , get help man. :oops:

1. Oh it's you. Here i'm a pally.
2. Those wounds are bad lemme get help.
3. *Slit his throat* :twisted:
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Yep Obsidian stuck too much to the classic Bioware
1. Guillible Good.
2. Retarded Badass.

Good catch tho Volly. I seem to remember all these bad RP examples as Bioware's standards. ME shows signs of improvement.
 

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