Review NWN 2 review extravaganza

[elander_]

I will have to read that link later. There are in fact some illogical things in D&D like fighting Dragons with your bare hands and the good/evil crap but on the other side my recent experience with ToEE was very good so i think maybe the fault is the way certain games abuse of the ruleset.

 

[Spectacle]

Don't bother with that link. It's about AD&D, not D&D3.5. Most of the problems it addresses have been fixed in the 3rd edition.

Many people still think D&D is crap, but that's because they simply don't like that kind of game. The current D&D is well designed and very good at what it does.

 

[aweigh]

I love 3.5 for the combat and the powermongering, nothing else. Anyone who plays D&D for roleplaying needs to get their head checked. (And experience other rulesets.)

 

[sheek]

D&D has barely changed from 2E to 3.5E. It's still the same mess of tacked on features, million optional rules and stuff that made no sense 20 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I will play D&D despite those flaws and games don't have to suck because of it. I just recognize that there are much better systems out there.

 

[Volourn]

But, there isn't. Nice try; though.

 

[aweigh]

But, there isn't. Nice try; though.

Are you saying there aren't any other rulesets out there that are better than D&D 3.5E? I just want to make sure I read that right.

 

[obediah]

But, there isn't. Nice try; though.

Are you saying there aren't any other rulesets out there that are better than D&D 3.5E? I just want to make sure I read that right.

Volly is full of stuff like that.

The attribute and skill handling in 3.5 is way better than 2E, but the multi-class and feat system is munchkin tripe.

I still think that for a good DM, the lack of non-combat rules in 2E makes for better gameplay than the more fleshed out 3.5 rules. Of course I'm from the old guard where a trying to convince an NPC of something in character is more fun than 'I use my diplomacy- I rolled a 17'.

 

[aweigh]

I'm of the persuasion that if you want a role-play heavy game, with less dice rolling, then D&D is not the ruleset for you. There are many others that would do a better job at that.

But if your group is hankering for some dungeon crawling, for some very enjoyable tactical combat and for munchkinism, then by all means, there's very few systems better at those things than 3.5E. Everything has its time and place, and good ole powermongering and lawnmowing can make for some beautiful sessions. J

ust don't expect De Profundiis from D&D.

 

[SpFiota]

I have to wonder why games are made like this. I mean, you could literrally replace the dialogue trees with smiley faces: :D , , :evil: and nothing would change. Do the developers think their customers are too stupid to comprehend subtle dialogue or appreciate interesting storylines? Or do they just have a bunch of shit-for-brains writers working for them that can't do any better?

 

[aweigh]

Or do they just have a bunch of shit-for-brains writers working for them that can't do any better?

You just answered your own question. Unfortunately, most of the people making games are not very smart. They're geeks.

 

[The_Pope]

D&D is terrible. It's counter intuitive, confusing and unrealistic without providing any real benefit. Diablo beats it on powergaming and Special beats it on roleplaying, so I can't understand it's appeal. However, I'm not overwieght and don't like to pretend to be elfaria elfariel, elven princess of elfonia so I guess I wouldn't understand.

Edit: I quite like NWN 2, but it could have been so much better if it wasn't burdened with DnD.

 

[Zomg]

I wouldn't have a problem with the rule porn aspect of 3E in NWN2 if the combat came in interesting set pieces to use my gamed little munchkin fruits in. Unless shit changes markedly at some point it's just buff, let the AI kill a few identical spawns, rest, buff, AI killing, etc. It's exactly the wrong way to do combat in a game with trivial resting and pushups from death, and it's worsened because you have this overbearing, bloated ruleset squatting on it.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

When that link was discussing "abstract hit points" (something we've discussed here as well), it said it was fine for their original appearance in Chainmail. Yet I read in the gamespy history of D&D with Gygax and Arneson that Chainmail DIDN'T have hitpoints, they introduced the concept in D&D. So does anybody know what Chainmail actually used?

 

[The Vanished One]

D&D is terrible. It's counter intuitive, confusing and unrealistic without providing any real benefit. Diablo beats it on powergaming and Special beats it on roleplaying, so I can't understand it's appeal. However, I'm not overwieght and don't like to pretend to be elfaria elfariel, elven princess of elfonia so I guess I wouldn't understand.

Edit: I quite like NWN 2, but it could have been so much better if it wasn't burdened with DnD.

But AD&D allows you to create any character you want, (a barbarian with two axes for example) with much more choices than any other game system.

 

[elander_]

Diablo beats it on powergaming and Special beats it on roleplaying, so I can't understand it's appeal.

Diablo is a completely different thing. It wasn't made for turn-base but since modern D&D games are not even turn-base (which is completely stupid) the comparision is valid.

Lots of people play D&D rpgs where they think role-playing is dungeon crawling and killing huge dragons mounted on an horse with a spear. Plus theres the toolkit which if wasnt for that i doubt that NWN2 would interest that much people.

 

[aweigh]

I would like to point out that the official Diablo P&P is on the d20 system.

 

[Zomg]

I said all of that, and then I run into a really cool little fight that's so set piecey the designer must have the word tattooed on his brain. The game is clearly getting better and less irritating as I get deeper in. I'm wondering if I'm seeing a Ferret/Sawyer divide here.

 

[sheek]

D&D is terrible. It's counter intuitive, confusing and unrealistic without providing any real benefit. Diablo beats it on powergaming and Special beats it on roleplaying, so I can't understand it's appeal. However, I'm not overwieght and don't like to pretend to be elfaria elfariel, elven princess of elfonia so I guess I wouldn't understand.

Edit: I quite like NWN 2, but it could have been so much better if it wasn't burdened with DnD.

But AD&D allows you to create any character you want, (a barbarian with two axes for example) with much more choices than any other game system.

Wrong. You can't create normal characters. I was just playing mystery/detective type scenario so I wanted to design some kind of negotiator, a sceptical ex-city guard who sniffs out conmen. What do I create? Has to be some fucking Thief/Warrior dual-class which doesn't fit at all.

The skill system sucks. It is tacked on and combat is the only real point of the game - and that sucks almost as bad. Like the article says it basically comes down to 'abstract' hitpoints, AC, stats (what is 'Wisdom'?) and it all feels fudged together. Anybody could create D&D 3.5E with a bit of free time, there is no sign of elegance or intellect in any of it.


As for a better, realistic, dynamic yet simple combat system I would suggest this (zipped PDF - thanks HigherGame)

 

[Blacklung]

Or do they just have a bunch of shit-for-brains writers working for them that can't do any better?

You just answered your own question. Unfortunately, most of the people making games are not very smart. They're geeks.

I always thought that calling someone a geek implied intelligence, just like calling them a nerd or dweeb, dork, etc. It seems everyone has their own definition for those words these days...

 

[aweigh]

It's the nerds who are smart.

Geeks are horribly misshapen social outcasts that fixate on one particular hobby and spray their shorts every time a girl talks to them.

 

[JrK]

... (a barbarian with two axes for example) ...

WHAT THE FARK! is so special about a barbarian with two axes?

 

[whatusername]

As for a better, realistic, dynamic yet simple combat system I would suggest this (zipped PDF - thanks HigherGame)

Does anyone else know a system similar to that, but free? I really like the idea of it, it's just that <s>I'm a cheap bastard</s> I'm in a deep financial situation, so I can't afford to churn out money on something like that. (I regret the day I sold my Planescape and AD&D stuff )

 

[sheek]

You get all the base rules free already - I'm kind of surprised at that actually. The core book has lots more maneuvers, damage tables and world details. And $25 is not that much compared to what WotC and company charge. I'm planning to buy it, problem is the core book is only in print and their shipping costs are crazy.

I heard there was a HarnMaster Lite that was free but I can't find it on the web.

As for non-commercial RPGs:

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/fre ... ional.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Al ... eerpgs.htm
http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/RPG/
http://www.rpglibrary.org/

I haven't found any perfect ones, different ones excel and innovate in different aspects. And there are many which are not worth looking at.

http://www.rpglibrary.org/main.php?showcat=Games

 

[SpFiota]

What do you mean by set-piecey, Zomg? I don't suppose you could describe the encounter somewhat, could you? Perhaps I gave up on this game too soon. I could forgive its short comings if combat was challenging and there was more to it other than spam fireball while the AI runs around stupidly.

 

[The Vanished One]

... (a barbarian with two axes for example) ...

WHAT THE FARK! is so special about a barbarian with two axes?

You're right, it's an awful example. I should have written "a dwarf wizard with two axes" perhaps... well, this one is a funny rather than an effective character... but you're supposed to have fun, after all.