Edward_R_Murrow said:
What? Grand Theft Auto is all about the vehicles and exploration, with combat basically tacked on.
Ok, instead of cars you're collecting swords (and get to keep them) and still exploring. You've got a lot more sidequests and opportunities to join organizations. GTA3 lets you drive around, and that's about it. The stuff you can collect is largely meaningless, and the most lasting aspect of character building in GTA:SA is turf wars.
What the deuce? What if one does not want a "sandbox" game? What if you don't like them, but like RPGs, and bought Oblivion hoping for a good RPG? Are you saying they don't have a right to like it because "it's a great sandbox game"?
Considering no one here bought Oblivion expecting it to be a good RPG, I fail to see your point. You're vilifying it for being what you expected when you bought it? Do go on.
Maybe it's that we don't want Oblivion as the basis of RPGs, like Diablo and Final Fatasy before. Maybe we would rather people wake up and get some damn taste rather than buying the same hack and slash drivel over and over, just with a new set of shiny paint.
So do what you normally do, and argue that it isn't an RPG. Why, in this specific case, do you argue that it's akin to a sign of the End Times or something, and demonize anyone who likes. Why not, instead of bitching and whining, create constructive criticism or even work on your own games like VD is doing?
No. Nevermind. Certainly it'll be more productive to just call me a dumbfuck.
Perhaps it sucks so much at being an RPG, it isn't one?
I said it isn't one. Several times. What's your point?
Care to argue why said games are shitty in an objective manner as opposed to "I got bored" or some such?
I have before, and even ranted about some of the things I disliked about Fallout below. You responded to it, even, yet ask me to explain why? I'm being accused of trolling?
Half those attacks in Oblivion don't actually o anything, plus the power attack control scheme is so counter-intuitive,
Except that it's the same as Morrowind's, so any "counter-intuitivity" should have been overshadowed by your experiences with Morrowind. And the different attacks DO have different effects once you get enough skill.
especially on a controller. I guess Bethesda missed ten years of action game design theory...
Maybe because they wanted to keep the controls familiar to fans of previous games in the series? You do that with game series. The controls in GTA4 are going to be the same as they were in GTA:SA, which are the same as they were in GTA3 with minor modifications.
Welcome to gaming.
It's a design flaw when one attack pattern is so dominating. Team Ninja realized that one attack was slightly powerful (the suggestively named "Flying Swallow") in Ninja Gaiden and toned it down in the numerous re-releases, making the act of spamming that move no longer rewarding. Point is, games shouldn't reward spamming a combo, it's a legitimate bad design complaint.
You chose to play i na certain style, and blame the game for giving you the freedom to do so? Are you arguing AGAINST a game giving you freedom?
It's not as if you're using the most efficient way of fighting, as you must go through a fortune in potions. Hell, I never had enough potions to fight like that!
It doesn't work on every enemy either, or against multiple enemies.
I know the review may have been a tad bit long (it was the max amount of file space on GameFAQs), but I also included th fact that it was toned down from Morrowind, and not anywhere as impressive as other games. And if not...well....I had to cut almost a third of the review off, so it may have been lost. Sorry for any confusion.
I didn't say better than Morrowind, I just claimed you said it was good.
Good, because I intend to keep using it.
I actually did play Oblivion so here goes....
Wraiths: Got something in between you and their left hand to block their spells which will rape you otherwise.
Not necessary at all. Wraiths switch to melee combat if you close in and hit them which isn't hard at all. This applies to th gloom and vanilla variety at least. And block, strike, strike, potion trumps these enemies as well.
You're either lying or they changed something in patches or between the PC and XBox version, because they've definately used it at point blank range on me. It hurts too, a lot.
Again, you must go through a fortune in potions. I bought houses, instead.
Daedroth: Block, then power attacks. Regular slashes are useless and they will just rape you.
Get a better weapon, regular slashes dominate and the damage buildup over time if using block, slash, slash, potion when needed will prove victorious quickly.
I believe at the time I was using an Ebony Longsword so it doesn't get much stronger than that. (Except when I fill up the charge, but that's my own personal Deus Ex Machina for tough situations...)
In any case, you'd still kill it faster with power attacks. It's just the way the math works when absorption gets high, it's why dex based fighters in D&D get hosed as DR monsters get more common.
Storm Atronachs: Don't bother blocking, they will rape you if you do. Move around a lot, circle him and keep slashing.
Blocking works, there is just a serious hit box problem with the way they "stretch out" and hit you. You need to stand back.
Even if that's true it's a tactic, and I came up with a different one. It's as if the game allows people to have different fighting styles or something. Crazy!
Run up and slash them essentially works. Although a lot of th time they'll rush you after summoning a creature that doesn't have nearly enough power (thank you comprehensive level scaling).
I guess nothing has "enough power" if you have infinite potions. I don't, so frequently the summons can hurt me quite a bit. Especially when a spriggan summons a bear...
Point is, Oblivion combat is woefully imbalanced with the only creature who is dangerous being the spider daedra, which obviously saw the most work and was the only polished creature.
Frankly, I'd rather fight a spider daedra than a will-o-the-wisp in the daytime. Since you can't see it's glow you can't tell when it's about to fire, and getting hit just once can mean game over if it knocks you down and he gets another spell off.
Are you fucking kidding me? Everything in Morrowind is some fucking shade of brown. Brown dirt on brown water with brown houses with brown fucking transportation bugs.
And? It was there for a reason, it wanted to look desolate. It was a stylistic choice and I thought it worked beautifully.
Yes, it looked desolate and created a desolate atmosphere. Then it got boring as you realized how drab everything was, and how ugly everything was. Why does Morrowind get a pass on that when you constantly complain about the similarity of the various areas in Morrowind? At least they are different colors!
Fuck, even the ARMOR is brown!
Except...you know....every metal armor, clothing, and glass/daedric. Go on exaggerating though.
Yeah, did you read the idiotic hyperbole I was replying to? "Everything in Oblivion is green?" You mean like the wildflowers, the yellowish grasses and brown trees and white ruins with yellow forts and... well you get the idea. Yes, I was exaggurating in response to his idiotic hyperbole... and even at that I was quite accurate. My armor, by the way, WAS brown (bonemail) as was th armor of the guards in Vivec.
No, we find the inferior works to be inferior, not the people. Liking Oblivion doesn't make you stupid. Thinking Oblivion is a good game by any objective, progressive, or artistic means....well...that might beg a few questions.
But why is it that here on the Codex it's the Worst. Game. Ever?
Think about it though, you've mostly stated that a lot of the systems are mediocre at best... but how many games actually bring all these systems together as well as Oblivion has? You say the combat is poor for an action game, but it's better than Morrowind or Diablo. The combat isn't as good as God of War, but it has a lot more freedom and better character development options. GTA games may have faster pacing and exploration (per your opinion) but everything is transient, and it doesn't have the peristance and loot collection that Oblivion has. It doesn't do tactical real time combat as well as an MMORPG, but you don't need to grind levels and deal with idiot 12 year olds to get that next nicest sword.
It's done a really good job of bringing things together into something more... well... whole than other games have accomplished.
Yes, it's a lot of systems that are "good enough" but combined into something more than the sum of it's parts. Something you just don't get out of anything else, except perhaps Morrowind if you're willing to put up with the drab setting, poorly given directions, finding forks for treasure and crappy combat.
Well guess what? It's the best we've got. And Bethesda with all their resources could have easily one-upped Fallout. They didn't though.
Only in terms of choices, but since the grand total of people who care about that is the Codex it's hardly likely to happen. Ever. Sorry, they're out to make money... not give you a C&C bukkake. Don't like it? Maybe you can join VD's team.
But no, Fallout's "worse" because, while linear, it actually has a combat system that rewards playing it and isn't hamstrung by shitty AI and lack of tactical options. It's also not marred by a shitty fucking interface that takes forever to do anything with because PC game programmers just can't understand that mousing over everything is the slowest possible way to do shit. YEah, greatest game ever my fucking ass.
Take out the interface part, which is woefully inaccurate (hotkeys anyone?), replace Fallout with Oblivion, and you are right.
I shouldn't have to spend hours hotkeying everything just to play a game and make the interface bearable. And no, the AI in Fallout was shitty. Everyone, expecially your group members" just runs up to point blank range and starts firing. No room for any real strategy or planning. Can't even set up a simple fucking trap surrounding a door and shooting enemies as they come out.
Wow...a completely unsubstantiated argument.
Let's see:
1) AI controlled allies that mostly get themselves killed (AI controlled allies is a BIG thing for me btw.)
2) turn based combat, but you only control one person so it's meaningless because you're just watching enemies rush you until they are close enough to gaurantee hits. Implementation of cover and decent AI (enemies NOT knowing instantly your exact location) would have gone a long way, as well as having full party control.
3) Aforementioned poor interface, especially for shops and dialog.
4) Quests where I expected freedom of choice, but which never had options I thought of or had illusory options. (Being able to blow up the entrance to the radscorpion cave, or sneak the girl out of the bandit camp in the middle of the night for instance.)
I like it....therefore it is good! Brilliant argument.
Interesting accusation... considering yours is "I didn't like it, so it must be the Worst. Game. Ever!"
So you'd rather generic drivel that is the same than reward mainstream developers actually attempting something differing from the norm. Quite telling.
No, but if different sucks then it sucks. If Morrowind had really cool design it'd be a different story. Brown on brown on brown isn't all that interesting, sorry.
That sounds all fine and dandy, but then why in the bloody hell is there a difficulty slide with over 50 points of scaling that can be modulated at the player's whim?
Because some characters might be stronger than others? My second character can only barely kill a single mountain lion, and gets her ass kicked in a lot of fights so I'm considering notching down the difficulty a bit because it's just getting frustrating. (Going to wait until I get some more spells first though, because that might help a lot...)
But no, it's much easier to just accuse people of being inept and stupid, isn't it?
You don't get this one methinks. The gates keep respawning, but there are only about 6 gate templates/maps in the game. Kinda lazy, huh?
Are there? That's interesting, since I thought everything was randomly generated. At least,that's what you complained about before. Maybe you're right though, since I've probably only done like 5 gates total...
Believability. People in reality don't join four full-time jobs all at once, university men don't rush every frat on campus, and athletes aren't on every sports team. It feels fake, contrived, and cheapens the choice. Why wouldn't anyone join all the guilds if they "lived" in Oblivion-Land? It just feels incredibly fake and "gamey".
Bullshit. These aren't full time jobs or teams. You don't put in 8 hours a day at your guild, or daily practice like you do for a sports team. These are more like clubs, which many people do join multiple clubs. Frankly, artificially limiting the number of guilds you can join is the gamey option. The realistic option would be for the guilds to put demands on the players time so that they couldn't have time to keep up with duties for multiple guilds... but that's anathema to TES design, which is all about freedom to roam and do what you want. Not to mention that it would get tedious for players.
Finally, you seem to always wonder why people are so pissed off at you in this thread. Perhaps I my shed some light on this. You've got a background, of making unsubstantiated dissent and generally just pissing people off. You're asking a question that has been answered numerous times. And you're also making some really poor arguments and often not backing them.
Your words would have more weight if it wasn't the same game as when I first came to the forum defending NWN, or whenever I see someone else come here and defend Oblivion. Hell, I introduced a real life friend of mine here once and he made the mistake of making an Oblivion thread and everyone attacked him immediately.
This isn't a reaction to me, it's <i>what the Codex <b>does</b></i>.
If you like Oblivion, and you think it's fun....go ahead. Be my guest. I'm happy for you. I couldn't and still can't have much fun with it. But maybe you should present you're arguments in a more reasonable way....something like....
You: So I just played Oblivion, and found it to be to my liking, what exactly were the problems you found with it?
That pretty much WAS my first post.
You: Why does the Hive Mind hate Oblivion, it's great and you are all total misanthropes!
Are you truly going to go down the DU path and start putting words in my mouth?
You: You all suck you elitist assholes! Fallout, Arcanum, and Torment suck (look ma, no backup!)! Fuck you hive mind I am a totally independent thinker and in no way just rebelling against the norm in the exact way I am accusing everyone here of.
Notice how the elitist assholes thing didn't come until after people started hurling insults at me? Even in your twisted version?
Yeah. Exactly.
Oh, and I never mentioned Torment.
That might help.[/quote]
