Interview Obsidian Media Blitz: The Future of Nu-Obsidian

[felipepepe]

No, I mean even before that. They self-funded D:OS's development for three years (along with Dragon Commander) long before the oldschool RPG revival was a thing. They were able to get significant royalties for their publisher-funded action-RPGs (Divinity 2) while Obsidian seemed permanently locked in hand-to-mouth work-for-hire mode. They survived for years without releasing any games at all (between Beyond Divinity and Divinity 2).

From their wikipedia:
Educational games

• Ketnet Kick (2004)
• Adventure Rock (2008)
• Ketnet Kick 2 (2008)
• GulliLand (2009)

That's also work-for-hire. There might be a lot more that's not listed there.

 

[LESS T_T]

Yeah from Divinity Developer's Journal:

Our experiences with publishers and having insufficient funding, had taught us that it was vital to earn enough money so that we could fund our next game ourselves. So between 2004 and 2006, we took on an enormous amount of work for hire, the key aim being to generate sufficient cash so that we could develop Divinity 2. It wasn’t the best nor the fastest strategy in the world, but it did work. During those times, only a small team worked on creating Divinity content, but Larian as a business was building up reserves, reserves that were going to be sorely needed when making the next Divinity…

(The publisher funded half of the original Divinity 2.)

I imagine, if Obsidian try this kind of work-for-hire projects it would lost many talents to other studios with more exciting projects.

 

[Infinitron]

Right, Larian benefits from being the big fish in a small pond.

 

[felipepepe]

I think it's a matter of leadership. One thing is having Sven saying "we're doing this for a few years to make the bestest RPG ever!"

The other is to have Feargus just doing stuff to survive, with no real end-game plan. Remember that MCA and many devs there left because of management issues.

 

[Blaine]

Infinitron, you need to un-fuck yourself, my dude.

Your slavishly devoted fanboyism is so extreme that I can now accurately predict which post ratings are yours in any thread relating to Obsidian or inXile. Normally I never expand people's post ratings, but this has turned into a fun game for me, albeit a game I always win.

For example:

We all know who that "citation needed" belongs to, but just to be sure....

Yeah, wow, huge surprise there.

 

[Infinitron]

Your slavishly devoted fanboyism is so extreme that I can now accurately predict which post ratings are yours in any thread relating to Obsidian or inXile.

Lots of people think this but I'm actually a Larian supremacist. IMO they're the top RPG studio today and one of the best ones in the entire history of video gaming.

 

[Jaedar]

I think it's a matter of leadership. One thing is having Sven saying "we're doing this for a few years to make the bestest RPG ever!"

When money gets tight at Larian, Swen pays his developers with smiles and hugs. It is said that one good Vinckian hug is enough to keep a man going for a week with no rest.

Jokes aside, Larian seems like a very well run company, unlike obsidian. Rents and salarias are probably lower in Ghent too.

 

[Infinitron]

I think it's a matter of leadership. One thing is having Sven saying "we're doing this for a few years to make the bestest RPG ever!"

Harder to say things like this when your studio is literally just down the road from Blizzard Entertainment. Poaching employees from other companies is part of the whole California/Silicon Valley culture. There's a reason Feargus mentions "We get to work on cool things as an independent studio" in the article. And even then it wasn't cool enough for Chris Avellone.

 

[Quantomas]

Rents and salaries are probably lower in Ghent too.

I don't think so. The economically still sound part of central Europe has become pretty expensive. At least the social security costs are way higher compared to California, plus salaries tend to be high. If professionals from the US get a job here, they are initially very satisfied with their pay, until they realize the money buys them significantly less here.

 

[felipepepe]

Harder to say things like this when your studio is literally just down the road from Blizzard Entertainment.

You can say it anywhere, the point is whether people will believe you and the work conditions will make up for it.

Also, Larian seems like a very horizontal and united company (at least when it was smaller), while Obsidian has rigid team divisions... either you're the kool kids doing PoE, or the work-for-hire doing Russian MMOs or getting projects cancelled. The latter are the ones who will likely jump ship.

 

[Roguey]

Also, "RPG's greatest survivors" my ass. Larian Studios is much older than Obsidian.

Larian was "Who?" for most folks until Divinity: Original Sin.

 

[Grumpy Grognard]

They've been very successful. Unusually successful. Larian has been able to do things that other similar independent studios simply don't get to do, and it's unclear exactly how. I'd love to interview them about their financial state over the years, but I doubt I'd get a straight answer.

Isn't it just a mix of DOS being 'unusually successful', given they pretty much owned it all and didn't have to split too much of the proceeds with others, and state support for setting up their various new studios, eg: Canada, much like inXile got with New Orleans?

No, I mean even before that. They self-funded D:OS's development for three years (along with Dragon Commander) long before the oldschool RPG revival was a thing. They were able to get significant royalties for their publisher-funded action-RPGs (Divinity 2) while Obsidian seemed permanently locked in hand-to-mouth work-for-hire mode. They survived for years without releasing any games at all (between Beyond Divinity and Divinity 2).

I've always assumed that Swen was independently wealthy enough to cover that.

 

[Flou]

I think it's a matter of leadership. One thing is having Sven saying "we're doing this for a few years to make the bestest RPG ever!"

The other is to have Feargus just doing stuff to survive, with no real end-game plan. Remember that MCA and many devs there left because of management issues.

Partially yes. On the other hand Larian doesn't have countless other developers just around the corner working on some great project. So it's a lot easier for them to keep their (Belgian) talent there than it is for Obsidian to keep talented people in California. When you've got something like Blizzard and Turtle Rock just around the corner it's a lot easier to lose talented people. Not to mention it's a shit loads easier to move from state to state in USA than it is to move from country to country in Europe. Culture changes and language problems alone are a huge burden.
The career/job opportunities are just that much better in USA than they are in Belgium/Benelux countries. Not to mention, if a Belgian programmer from different part of the country takes a job at Larian he doesn't have to travel for hours and hours to go back home where probably most of his/her family and friends are located just to see them. So re-locating "back home" isn't that big of an issue either.

One could even argue that Armored Warfare and Skyforge were exactly "work for hire" projects for Obsidian. Armored Warfare isn't a game the company really wants to make, but they needed that contract and took it. So they could work on games they really want to make later on (Indiana).

MCA was part of the management and at this point MCA has said a lot of things, but nothing really clearly just hinting about stuff left and right instead of saying what exactly was the reason.

In my opinion Sven and Feargus are both doing a good job when it comes to running a company, I just think that Sven might have the difficulty setting on an easier level though due to circumstances that neither company can really change. And I'm sure there things that Larian doesn't have like Obsidian has in California.

 

[Flou]

Also, Larian seems like a very horizontal and united company (at least when it was smaller), while Obsidian has rigid team divisions... either you're the kool kids doing PoE, or the work-for-hire doing Russian MMOs or getting projects cancelled. The latter are the ones who will likely jump ship.

A lot of the Armored Warfare team was hired for that project. Saying how they were the uncool kids at the company is kinda pointless though.
Also what cancelled projects are you talking about? They haven't had a project fully cancelled since Stormlands and the cool kids weren't working on Pillars of Eternity back then. Which makes your "divisions" argument kinda pointless.

 

[Flou]

Who should they be loyal to?

You can be loyal to your fans. You can be loyal to your beliefs. And you can be loyal to your employees, which means more than only to secure their next paychecks, but to honor what they believe in too, because this is most likely the reason why they chose to work there in the first place.

Obsidian looks very much like the story of a company that set out boldly, grew too quickly and then had to make all kinds of compromises which led them to be dependent on publishers.

Yeah, I bet Feargus forced people working on Skyforge/Armored Warfare to stay there by pointing a shotgun at them and then locking them in the office.

I still don't see how Obsidian hasn't been loyal to their fans, beliefs or employess. Please elaborate.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Discussion reminds me of Swen's post-D:OS-release blog post where he talks about desperate visits to banks and trying to placate impatient investors, they really went all-in on D:OS and it's great it paid off for them. Guess you have to have a lot of belief in what you're doing to risk the company on one project though, and not something one wants to do too often.

http://www.lar.net/2014/09/12/thoug...ityoriginal-sin-and-what-comes-next/#more-971

Spoiler

A lot of the crunch was caused by our decision to listen to the feedback we received through our Kickstarter and Steam Early Access communities. While it often was tough to read through all of the criticism, it was clear that integrating the best parts of the feedback would be well worth the effort and improve the game massively. We didn’t hesitate for a minute.

This meant extra delays however, which in turn meant a need for extra budget. Steam Early Access was getting us some money but unfortunately that wasn’t sufficient. We needed to pay back our creditors who were all under the conviction that the game would be out sooner. When, to my surprise, it turned out that they didn’t share our belief that everything was going to be ok and even better if we listened to the feedback, I had to engage in a lot of fun conversations. Between “it’s ready when it’s done” and actually following up on that mantra, there unfortunately lies a big gap that can only be bridged with financial stamina.

I think we would’ve continued development even longer, but when I had to dash to a far away place where lived the one last bank director who still wanted to give us sufficient credit to pay a part of what we owed to another bank, it was clear that we needed to finish. I wasn’t joking when I said it was all in.

 

[Flou]

No, I mean even before that. They self-funded D:OS's development for three years (along with Dragon Commander) long before the oldschool RPG revival was a thing. They were able to get significant royalties for their publisher-funded action-RPGs (Divinity 2) while Obsidian seemed permanently locked in hand-to-mouth work-for-hire mode. They survived for years without releasing any games at all (between Beyond Divinity and Divinity 2).

I think some of it has to do with company sizes. Larian was a smaller company at the time (right?), so it was easier to steer fully towards self publishing. Obsidian would have had to lay off tons of talented people to go that same route. While it might have worked for Obsidian as well, I just don't see Feargus being that cold and laying off 100 people so he can start self publishing all of their games.
Obviously Larian and Sven took a huge risk and it paid off and I think Larian's example has made even Feargus to think more about self publishing.

They already did Pathfinder Card Game as self published, hopefully Deadfire follows and even though Pillars 1 was published by Paradox, Obsidian is making profit out of it even to this day which is good if you compare it to most of their games that they don't get any royalties from.
Feargus is definately playing it more save than Sven is and might not even want to go fully into self publishing. They still might want to have a publisher for all those bigger projects while the smaller projects will be self published helping them to generate a steady stream of income.

 

[felipepepe]

just think that Sven might have the difficulty setting on an easier level though due to circumstances that neither company can really change.

What a load of bullshit. The guy had huge issues trying to convince others that a tiny company in Belgiun could make games, away from all publishers and game companies., with Americans calling their games shovelware.

Moreover, they started from the very bottom, while Obsidian already had all the know-how and contacts from Interplay/Black Isle. Their first game was a deal with BioWare to produce KOTOR 2 FFS.

 

[Blaine]

Your slavishly devoted fanboyism is so extreme that I can now accurately predict which post ratings are yours in any thread relating to Obsidian or inXile.

Lots of people think this but I'm actually a Larian supremacist. IMO they're the top RPG studio today and one of the best ones in the entire history of video gaming.

Be that as it may, you never fail to tag a post critical of inXile or Obsidian with a passive-aggressive rating. Every once in a while, you might consider allowing someone to state their opinion and just scroll on past like a normal person who isn't obsessed.

 

[Flou]

just think that Sven might have the difficulty setting on an easier level though due to circumstances that neither company can really change.

What a load of bullshit. The guy had huge issues trying to convince others that a tiny company in Belgiun could make games, away from all publishers and game companies., with Americans calling their games shovelware.

Moreover, they started from the very bottom, while Obsidian already had all the know-how and contacts from Interplay/Black Isle. Their first game was a deal with BioWare to produce KOTOR 2 FFS.

Like I said, different challenges. Once both companies were up and running Larian has it easier when it comes to keeping their talented people at the company. Coming up with that talent might be a lot harder though in a much smaller country.

 

[JarlFrank]

Good for Larian. Currently they employ only 40 people, so they still have a lot of expanding to do, to get to around 175 people that Obsidian employes.

If you can make an AAA quality game like Divinity OS2 with 40 people and have it be profitable, why expand to 175?

 

[Lahey]

My suspicion - Belgian government support has played a role.

12/08/11: http://www.lar.net/2011/12/08/flanders-and-the-games-industry/

Flanders and the games industry

I’m having a meeting this afternoon at the Flemish ministry of innovation where they’ll tell my colleague developers and me how they intend to support the local games industry.

The local games industry of course is almost non-existent over here as our socio-economic climate is extremely hostile to the kind of thing we do. High labour taxes, necessary to finance a defunct and inefficient social system, together with good supportive measures for stimulating the games industry in neighboring countries, have made this place probably the worst possible to run a game development studio from.

I once calculated that my average cost per employee is the same as that of a top AAA studio in the USA, except that over there access to investment cash is a lot easier. And don’t get me started on Canada!

I’m very curious to hear what they came up with. It’s a tradition here that the high costs are compensated through subsidies, which politically I disagree with, but economically find that I must use if I want to keep on making games and compete on the global market.

The best option for Larian really would be to move out of here, but local roots are important to us, so I really hope the package they’ll present makes economical sense. There’s so much talent here and it’s a shame to see it continuously leave the country.

02/13/08: http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=349643

In Belgium, there's a debate going on about the government helping out game developers. Being one of the larger studios in Belgium, we were given the opportunity to give our thoughts on the matter. To be fair, we didn't expect so much game footage to be used on TV (it was recorded in the afternoon,broadcast in the evening and we only knew about it in the morning, so it took us all a bit by surprise).

We allowed the camera crew to take some development footage to underline to our local politicians that there are studios, in Belgium, who are seriously busy with games. Our goal is to have them do something about the unfair competition caused by other governments granting large subsidies in neighbouring countries. That's all there is to it.

After the success of D:OS, Larian expanded to take advantage of those large subsidies in other countries.

03/31/15: http://www.develop-online.net/news/divinity-original-sin-dev-larian-opening-quebec-studio/0205016

Belgium-based Divinity: Original Sin developer Larian is opening a new development studio in Quebec City, Canada.

It aims to hire 40 staff at the office over the next three years to work on its own unique projects and also collaborate with other studios.

The news comes shortly after the Quebec government confirmed tax incentives would rise back to 37.5 per cent, one of the highest subsidies in the game industry.

“We were impressed by the openness and energy of the regional stakeholders and by Quebec City’s advantages in terms of qualified workers, competitive operating costs, infrastructure, and quality of life,” said Larian Studios president Swen Vincke.

05/17/15: http://www.thejournal.ie/games-industry-ireland-2091958-May2015/

While Ireland offers a 25% research-and-development tax credit for qualifying work across all industries, the UK last year introduced a much more wide-reaching 25% credit to cover game development costs. France has also put in place a similar scheme.

O’Neill, who sold Upstart Games for €11.5 million in 2006 and now runs Dublin-based StoryToys, said the incentive was “hugely attractive” in providing an extra cash injection for games companies.

tl;dr Larian is Ubishit-lite when it comes to gibs.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Your slavishly devoted fanboyism is so extreme that I can now accurately predict which post ratings are yours in any thread relating to Obsidian or inXile.

Lots of people think this but I'm actually a Larian supremacist. IMO they're the top RPG studio today and one of the best ones in the entire history of video gaming.

So this means you figured the prospects of being hired by Larian are nowadays higher than current chances at Obsidian, I get it. Also the time zone is better.

 

[Blaine]

There's some serious agenda-based Brofisting going on in this thread. Has someone pointed out that you're acting like an idiot or disagreed with your beloved personal opinions? Why, just apply the butthurt rating. That'll show them. Yell TAKE THAT! at your monitor for additional gravitas.

Maybe if you guys tongue the glans of Obsidian's shaft sensuously enough and award me some additional butthurt ratings, their next game will time-warp into an actually good RPG from the 1990s.

 

[Blackstaff]

They've been very successful. Unusually successful. Larian has been able to do things that other similar independent studios simply don't get to do, and it's unclear exactly how. I'd love to interview them about their financial state over the years, but I doubt I'd get a straight answer.

Isn't it just a mix of DOS being 'unusually successful', given they pretty much owned it all and didn't have to split too much of the proceeds with others, and state support for setting up their various new studios, eg: Canada, much like inXile got with New Orleans?

No, I mean even before that. They self-funded D:OS's development for three years (along with Dragon Commander) long before the oldschool RPG revival was a thing. They were able to get significant royalties for their publisher-funded action-RPGs (Divinity 2) while Obsidian seemed permanently locked in hand-to-mouth work-for-hire mode. They survived for years without releasing any games at all (between Beyond Divinity and Divinity 2).

One simple explanation was that they own their divinity IP. Nordic didn't make much games, but found a way to buy lots of old IPs and made money out of it.