Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Mangoose]

Why not get rid of character advancement completely? You make your characters at the start, and play those characters to the end, without changing their stats. Has any CRPG ever played like that?

Halo

You could achieve these features by emphasizing gear role. Your character would stand as a basis for your build and a gear would play the whole progression part.

That's character advancement by another name (if it is done in a complex manner).

 

[Spectacle]

Why not get rid of character advancement completely? You make your characters at the start, and play those characters to the end, without changing their stats. Has any CRPG ever played like that?

Halo

Never played that, does it have character generation? I thought it was just a straight shooter with a 100% pre determined character.

 

[Mangoose]

Why not get rid of character advancement completely? You make your characters at the start, and play those characters to the end, without changing their stats. Has any CRPG ever played like that?

Halo

Never played that, does it have character generation? I thought it was just a straight shooter with a 100% pre determined character.

Yes, when you select a difficulty, it changes how powerful your character.

 

[Spectacle]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

Plenty of customization is possible in character generation, it would even be more important since you'd be stuck with your choices, no putting points into a different skill later.
Sure, I like leveling up as much as the next guy, but there's no reason why every RPG has to be like that.

 

[Spectacle]

Why not get rid of character advancement completely? You make your characters at the start, and play those characters to the end, without changing their stats. Has any CRPG ever played like that?

Halo

Never played that, does it have character generation? I thought it was just a straight shooter with a 100% pre determined character.

Yes, when you select a difficulty, it changes how powerful your character.

That's still not customization, so it doesn't count. Halo is off the list, sorry.

 

[Mangoose]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

Plenty of customization is possible in character generation, it would even be more important since you'd be stuck with your choices, no putting points into a different skill later.
Sure, I like leveling up as much as the next guy, but there's no reason why every RPG has to be like that.

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

 

[Spectacle]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

Plenty of customization is possible in character generation, it would even be more important since you'd be stuck with your choices, no putting points into a different skill later.
Sure, I like leveling up as much as the next guy, but there's no reason why every RPG has to be like that.

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Enemies don't have to be identical just because they have a similar power level. For example there are literally hundreds of ways to put together an encounter that's suitable for a 1st level party in D&D.
There are also other ways to advance than character stats, such as getting better gear, more people or just learning to play the game better. But yeah, either way there would be much less of an enemy power curve.

 

[Visbhume]

Why not get rid of character advancement completely? You make your characters at the start, and play those characters to the end, without changing their stats. Has any CRPG ever played like that?

I would like to try such an rpg. Very few stats upgrades, character advancement by accumulating wealth/items/spells, and also by gaining favor with factions and NPCs. Especially the faction thing.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

You could achieve these features by emphasizing gear role.

I like to have both things.

I don't see the point in even discussing removing something that's incredibly fun.

It's like suggesting suggesting playing with the screen turned off. It's innovative, yeah, but it's also completely retarded.

 

[Mangoose]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

Plenty of customization is possible in character generation, it would even be more important since you'd be stuck with your choices, no putting points into a different skill later.
Sure, I like leveling up as much as the next guy, but there's no reason why every RPG has to be like that.

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Enemies don't have to be identical just because they have a similar power level. For example there are literally hundreds of ways to put together an encounter that's suitable for a 1st level party in D&D.

But in a singular setting, you don't have "literally hundreds of ways" because you are limited to the population in the setting, which are of varying power levels. It still means that if there is a dragon or an ogre in the setting, you will not be able to face it.

There are also other ways to advance than character stats, such as getting better gear, more people

That is still character advancement, just via different mechanics.

But yeah, either way there would be much less of an enemy power curve.

In other words, level scaling.

 

[Stelcio]

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Your retarded way of thinking: no advancement -> no levels -> everybody is on the same level -> you are on the same level as everybody -> level scaling.

I don't see the point in even discussing removing something that's incredibly fun.

It's fun only if it isn't broken. Too bad in most cases it is.

 

[Mangoose]

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Your retarded way of thinking: no advancement -> no levels -> everybody is on the same level -> you are on the same level as everybody -> level scaling.

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

And in the first case, yes. That is not retarded thinking, that is abstract thinking. Just like how gear advancement is equal to character advancement if done in the same manner of complexity. Scaling your enemies to you is the same thing as designing a game to have the enemies the same level as you, especially if there is no character customization during gameplay either.

 

[Spectacle]

Yeah, let's take away character customization and advancement, one of if not the most compelling and defining atttributes of RPGs.

You could achieve these features by emphasizing gear role.

I like to have both things.

I don't see the point in even discussing removing something that's incredibly fun.

It's like suggesting suggesting playing with the screen turned off. It's innovative, yeah, but it's also completely retarded.

Fun is not an objective quality, what's enjoyable for some is not for others. Playing without a monitor is something else entirely, since that will render almost any video game completely unplayable. I know you're a munchkin who loves to power up your characters, so this kind RPG would surely not be your thing.

 

[Visbhume]

But in a singular setting, you don't have "literally hundreds of ways" because you are limited to the population in the setting, which are of varying power levels. It still means that if there is a dragon or an ogre in the setting, you will not be able to face it.

Ways to defeat an opponent stronger than you: gain knowledge of a secret weakness. Find a way to catch him with his guard down. Find powerful allies that join you in you fight. Poison him. Bribe him. Convince him. Find powerful weapons to use against him.

All of them more interesting ways than "increasing your numerical attack score".

 

[Spectacle]

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

Obviously you couldn't simply barge into an ogres cave and attack it (That's assuming an ogre is actually stronger than a coordinated group of human fighters, nobody is saying that these characters will be the equivalent of 1st level)
If you really want that ogre/dragon dead you'd have to plan ahead, decide on the best time and place to fight it, get hold of proper gear for fighting a much larger enemy, perhaps set a trap or recruit mercenaries for backup.
Wouldn't that be more exiting than bashing in rats until you have enough levels that you can attack the ogre head on?

 

[Mangoose]

But in a singular setting, you don't have "literally hundreds of ways" because you are limited to the population in the setting, which are of varying power levels. It still means that if there is a dragon or an ogre in the setting, you will not be able to face it.

Ways to defeat an opponent stronger than you: gain knowledge of a secret weakness. Find a way to catch him with his guard down. Find powerful allies that join you in you fight. Poison him. Bribe him. Convince him. Find powerful weapons to use against him.

All of them more interesting ways than "increasing your numerical attack score".

Okay, you'd need one of these for every single encounter. If it's a combat system that relies on stats.

 

[Mangoose]

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

Obviously you couldn't simply barge into an ogres cave and attack it (That's assuming an ogre is actually stronger than a coordinated group of human fighters, nobody is saying that these characters will be the equivalent of 1st level)
If you really want that ogre/dragon dead you'd have to plan ahead, decide on the best time and place to fight it, get hold of proper gear for fighting a much larger enemy, perhaps set a trap or recruit mercenaries for backup.
Wouldn't that be more exiting than bashing in rats until you have enough levels that you can attack the ogre head on?

You'd have to do this for every single encounter that is stronger than you. The ogre is an example of a huge power difference. Even minor differences will require you to make up for your power level difference with such tactics, which means you'd have to script that in for every single encounter.

 

[Stelcio]

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Your retarded way of thinking: no advancement -> no levels -> everybody is on the same level -> you are on the same level as everybody -> level scaling.

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

And in the first case, yes. That is not retarded thinking, that is abstract thinking. Just like how gear advancement is equal to character advancement if done in the same manner of complexity. Scaling your enemies to you is the same thing as designing a game to have the enemies the same level as you, especially if there is no character customization during gameplay either.

You make a mistake of thinking that PC should always be more powerful, less powerful or equally powerful to enemy. I think every character can be just different and have his strenghts and weaknesses, which should play their role in combat.

 

[Infinitron]

One thing to keep in mind is that in oldschool RPGs:

1) Levelling up is such a slow process that for large stretches of the game the party IS in fact for all intents and purposes "locked" at a single level
2) The power difference between levels is in many respects less drastic due to lack of HP and damage bloat

 

[Mangoose]

So in other words, you want 100% level scaling. Either that or you're facing the same groups of humans in every encounter, as you'll never be able to face an ogre or dragon.

Your retarded way of thinking: no advancement -> no levels -> everybody is on the same level -> you are on the same level as everybody -> level scaling.

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

And in the first case, yes. That is not retarded thinking, that is abstract thinking. Just like how gear advancement is equal to character advancement if done in the same manner of complexity. Scaling your enemies to you is the same thing as designing a game to have the enemies the same level as you, especially if there is no character customization during gameplay either.

You make a mistake of thinking that PC should always be more powerful, less powerful or equally powerful to enemy. I think every character can be just different and have his strenghts and weaknesses, which should play their role in a combat.

And where exactly will you find a even partly-realistic setting that every single enemy equal to the PC? The only way you can do that is scale all the powerful enemies in a setting down, and scale all the weaker enemies up.

 

[Spectacle]

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

Obviously you couldn't simply barge into an ogres cave and attack it (That's assuming an ogre is actually stronger than a coordinated group of human fighters, nobody is saying that these characters will be the equivalent of 1st level)
If you really want that ogre/dragon dead you'd have to plan ahead, decide on the best time and place to fight it, get hold of proper gear for fighting a much larger enemy, perhaps set a trap or recruit mercenaries for backup.
Wouldn't that be more exiting than bashing in rats until you have enough levels that you can attack the ogre head on?

You'd have to do this for every single encounter that is stronger than you. The ogre is an example of a huge power difference. Even minor differences will require you to make up for your power level difference with such tactics, which means you'd have to script that in for every single encounter.

That sounds good to me. Just say no to trash combat. You wouldn't necessarily need scripted solutions to every encounter though, just a basic system that's flexible enough that you can make up for the power difference by adapting your tactics to the encounter.

 

[Mangoose]

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

Obviously you couldn't simply barge into an ogres cave and attack it (That's assuming an ogre is actually stronger than a coordinated group of human fighters, nobody is saying that these characters will be the equivalent of 1st level)
If you really want that ogre/dragon dead you'd have to plan ahead, decide on the best time and place to fight it, get hold of proper gear for fighting a much larger enemy, perhaps set a trap or recruit mercenaries for backup.
Wouldn't that be more exiting than bashing in rats until you have enough levels that you can attack the ogre head on?

You'd have to do this for every single encounter that is stronger than you. The ogre is an example of a huge power difference. Even minor differences will require you to make up for your power level difference with such tactics, which means you'd have to script that in for every single encounter.

That sounds good to me. Just say no to trash combat. You wouldn't necessarily need scripted solutions to every encounter though, just a basic system that's flexible enough that you can make up for the power difference by adapting your tactics to the encounter.

Yes, you just need a basic system that would take a miracle of design-work.

 

[Arkeus]

One thing to keep in mind is that in oldschool RPGs:

1) Levelling up is such a slow process that for large stretches of the game the party IS in fact for all intents and purposes "locked" at a single level
2) The power difference between levels is in many respects less drastic due to lack of HP and damage bloat

Pretty much. Let's take BG for instance, where you extremely quickly get to level 4 or so, but then you are 'stuck' there for 30 or so hours. It's all about gear and switching characters.

 

[Spectacle]

No. I said EITHER. Everybody is not in the same level in the second case, where an ogre or a dragon is 10x your level and you will never be able to beat it.

Obviously you couldn't simply barge into an ogres cave and attack it (That's assuming an ogre is actually stronger than a coordinated group of human fighters, nobody is saying that these characters will be the equivalent of 1st level)
If you really want that ogre/dragon dead you'd have to plan ahead, decide on the best time and place to fight it, get hold of proper gear for fighting a much larger enemy, perhaps set a trap or recruit mercenaries for backup.
Wouldn't that be more exiting than bashing in rats until you have enough levels that you can attack the ogre head on?

You'd have to do this for every single encounter that is stronger than you. The ogre is an example of a huge power difference. Even minor differences will require you to make up for your power level difference with such tactics, which means you'd have to script that in for every single encounter.

That sounds good to me. Just say no to trash combat. You wouldn't necessarily need scripted solutions to every encounter though, just a basic system that's flexible enough that you can make up for the power difference by adapting your tactics to the encounter.

Yes, you just need a basic system that would take a miracle of design-work.

I really don't think it would be all that hard. Not making separate content for 30 different character levels would free up a lot of designer time for other parts of the system.

 

[SCO]

I think he's talking about out of depth encounters instead of 'exhausted quest givers genocide' or griding..

But that's a red herring. There is no reason that a objective that is harder for some reason (including harder combat encounters), shouldn't give more xp anyway.