Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[serch]

Sawyer understands how to make a tactically sound combat system. SoD sucks: too much luck, or too much scissor, paper or rock dynamics involved

 

[tuluse]

Save or die sucks unless you also make death an interesting mechanic in itself, or you're using to make players select sub-optimal abilities or equipment to make the rest of an area interesting. In the latter case there are better ways to do it.

 

[Duraframe300]

Don't know if this has been posted yet (at least 4-days old), bit off-topic

Chris Avellone on Time Limits

http://criticalpathproject.com/?v=66746207

 

[DraQ]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/463736096556078991
Kinda old news

Sawyer understands how to make a tactically sound combat system. SoD sucks: too much luck, or too much scissor, paper or rock dynamics involved

What about merely situationally hard counters?

Headshots are a good example here. They are commonly implemented in FPS games, and there is no way there to immunize your character against them. Yet, they are far from random and no one but shitty players complains about randomly dying to them. That's because there are situationally specific methods of avoiding headshots, necessitating special playstyle from defending player. OTOH this special playstyle can be anticipated and exploited by the attacker, but this also means that the defender can anticipate what attacker might to do to exploit his defense and so on.

This yields far more interesting gameplay than either hard counters, luck-based saves or no instakill mechanics at all.

Good designer should not only play other games, but he should play other genres as well - it really opens up your mind (though probably not as much as a headshot).


Edit:

I wouldn't mind if someone forwarded this to Sawyer - I'm curious about his response, but don't necessarily feel like registering on formspring or whatever just to make a comment.

 

[tuluse]

It's pretty rare to be head-shotted in a single player FPS.

Also, surely there is a difference between single action kills based on player skill vs rolling too low on a single die.

 

[Infinitron]

Don't know if this has been posted yet (at least 4-days old), bit off-topic

Chris Avellone on Time Limits

http://criticalpathproject.com/?v=66746207

Great find.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets

 

[Arkeus]

Ok, someone please as Josh if there are spells that cannot be learned on level up-E.G, some spells can only be found in grimoires. I seem to remember him talking about this, but that was during the kickstarter.

 

[Infinitron]

Ok, someone please as Josh if there are spells that cannot be learned on level up-E.G, some spells can only be found in grimoires. I seem to remember him talking about this, but that was during the kickstarter.

Asked

 

[Arkeus]

Ok, someone please as Josh if there are spells that cannot be learned on level up-E.G, some spells can only be found in grimoires. I seem to remember him talking about this, but that was during the kickstarter.

Asked

• 
  JESawyer
  I'd really like to. If we have time, I would like to have unique spells for the player to find (or possibly make/help make).
  smile

 

[Rake]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/463736096556078991
Kinda old news

Sawyer understands how to make a tactically sound combat system. SoD sucks: too much luck, or too much scissor, paper or rock dynamics involved

What about merely situationally hard counters?

Headshots are a good example here. They are commonly implemented in FPS games, and there is no way there to immunize your character against them. Yet, they are far from random and no one but shitty players complains about randomly dying to them. That's because there are situationally specific methods of avoiding headshots, necessitating special playstyle from defending player. OTOH this special playstyle can be anticipated and exploited by the attacker, but this also means that the defender can anticipate what attacker might to do to exploit his defense and so on.

This yields far more interesting gameplay than either hard counters, luck-based saves or no instakill mechanics at all.

Good designer should not only play other games, but he should play other genres as well - it really opens up your mind (though probably not as much as a headshot).


Edit:

I wouldn't mind if someone forwarded this to Sawyer - I'm curious about his response, but don't necessarily feel like registering on formspring or whatever just to make a comment.

Done

 

[Tigranes]

So chanter = FUS RO DAH done right? Sounds good to me. I didn't really have any specific hopes for Eternity, just a general fuck yeah, and I'm pretty happy about how the classes are becoming interesting and pretty unique, including the Monk.

The chanter *could* just be the bard with longer ability names, the idea about stringing phrases seems like it's more complicated than 'set x song and stay still' bard but I'd imagine it's not too complicated or it would be hard to manage in a party game (clearly, this is what Skyrim needed to do instead of giving Force Push a Nordic sound file and calling it a day). I wonder if there are options to have two chanters and have them collaborate in a cacophony.

 

[Brayko]

Wizards have always been the shittiest spell-related class and it appears PE is no exception.

 

[tuluse]

So chanter = FUS RO DAH done right? Sounds good to me. I didn't really have any specific hopes for Eternity, just a general fuck yeah, and I'm pretty happy about how the classes are becoming interesting and pretty unique, including the Monk.

The chanter *could* just be the bard with longer ability names, the idea about stringing phrases seems like it's more complicated than 'set x song and stay still' bard but I'd imagine it's not too complicated or it would be hard to manage in a party game (clearly, this is what Skyrim needed to do instead of giving Force Push a Nordic sound file and calling it a day). I wonder if there are options to have two chanters and have them collaborate in a cacophony.

As long as you can save certain phrase combos to re-use them and/or queue them up, it should be fine.

 

[Excidium]

Wizards have always been the shittiest spell-related class and it appears PE is no exception.

wut

 

[DraQ]

It's pretty rare to be head-shotted in a single player FPS.

Also, surely there is a difference between single action kills based on player skill vs rolling too low on a single die.

Indeed. Single action kills happen consistently (whether by player or an AI), not just on a bad roll.

Dice are there to force player to be robust in their planning, not for player to count on any particular result of a roll.

 

[Rake]

DraQ
Sawyer answered.

They are far from random in FPS games where accuracy is primarily determined by player skill. Accuracy in PE, like the IE games, is determined primarily by character stats, not player skill. Hard counters in a single-player RPG are obnoxious, IMOBecause either you're prepped for them or you aren't. If you aren't, you reload and voila, you are. If you prepared save-or-die tactic that the enemy is immune to, you're hard countered through no fault of your own. If not, you steamroll the enemy.
Or you do what many players do, which is reload until the primary target fails its save and the entire tactical challenge of the fight is rendered trivial/pointless.

 

[tuluse]

Indeed. Single action kills happen consistently (whether by player or an AI), not just on a bad roll.

Dice are there to force player to be robust in their planning, not for player to count on any particular result of a roll.

What I mean is there should be a series of actions that lead to the single action kill. Moving to a good vantage point, aiming skillfully, the targetted character not having good cover, then the head shot can happen.

If it's just open door, breath attack save or die, poor die roll, that's bad design.

 

[Tigranes]

I think on save-or-die Sawyer is thinking too much in a vacuum. Consider actual IE battles where enemies made use of SODs, notably, Kangaxx and Imprisonment (as well as FOD I think); obviously, one aspect is that you die a couple of times then learn to bring some Freedom spells, and/or to cast whatever Death Ward used to be called in AD&D (was it different?). But in the context of a lengthy battle where lots of other moves are being made, it introduced a great level of tension and unpredictability, because with a spell like Imprisonment, you knew that (1) the enemy only has a limited number of castings; (2) you actually can't prepare for it fully, e.g. your Freedom spell too could be interrupted and you can't immunise up front. This was the key element that made Kangaxx such a memorable battle because you could never hold a position of safety, you could never say that my configuration of buffs, summons, etc. have made this battle 'predictable'. You always had to try and figure out if he was going to cast Imprisonment, whether you could interrupt it, etc.

For player-cast SOD he is closer to the mark because games often struggle to make them too useful or just useless (see: many JRPGs). I think D&D had some conditionals that made it sufficiently interesting, e.g. Power Word Kill's HP limit, or 3rd edition Disintegrate / FOD's staggered saves. But I think having a couple out there for players and enemies introduces good tension to the combat. Perhaps there can be 'weaker' variants such as a touch-based spell that drains health to 10% or 20% but leaves stamina intact, which doesn't mean you die with the next hit but gives you a big problem; a spell which reverses stamina and health values; a spell which makes all hits for the next round or so go directly to health; spells which must be dispelled within x turns or the character dies, akin to Doom in some FF's.

 

[Sannom]

Off-topic : am I just misremembering Kangaax being ridiculously easy to beat because he basically becomes useless if you cast "Protection from Undead" scrolls on your entire party? It's probably an exploit, but still...

 

[Roguey]

Off-topic : am I just misremembering Kangaax being ridiculously easy to beat because he basically becomes useless if you cast "Protection from Undead" scrolls on your entire party? It's probably an exploit, but still...

That's not an exploit, it's working as intended. Those scrolls are for bad players who need them to win.

 

[Aeschylus]

Off-topic : am I just misremembering Kangaax being ridiculously easy to beat because he basically becomes useless if you cast "Protection from Undead" scrolls on your entire party? It's probably an exploit, but still...

There are multiple exploity ways to beat the fight with no challenge whatsoever. A Protection from Magic scroll makes you immune to everything he throws at you. Protection from Undead makes him ignore you. Minsc or Korgan's berserk ability makes them immune to imprisonment. It's more of a puzzle than a fight, really. Easy if you're prepared, impossible if you're not.

That's not an exploit, it's working as intended. Those scrolls are for bad players who need them to win.

It's not a matter of being a 'bad player' or a 'good player'; the fight is just gimmicky, the only way to win without losing half your party is to be immune to imprisonment. Other than that, it's easy.

 

[Roguey]

It's not a matter of being a 'bad player' or a 'good player'; the fight is just gimmicky, the only way to win without losing half your party is to be immune to imprisonment. Other than that, it's easy.

Bad players need to buy things to help them win instead of relying on the tools they have available.

 

[Rake]

The chalenge was to beat him early. After you gain Slayer ability, you can solo him without danger.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

Above is a UI mockup that Kaz has put over the original Kickstarter image. What do you think?

I know what you are thinking. What the hell have the artists been doing?? The art in this game should be half done by now! Right?

That's what I want to know! Why isn't the game half-done already?

Well, as I've said before we're "professionals." We proceed in a highly-complex collaboration/iteration loop of blending design wants and dos, programming cans, think-they-cans and dos and artist wants, cans, can-but-don't-know-how-longs and dos. As you can see - and please don't get angry - this is all very technical. Know that: work is progressing.

Yeeeargh! Enough with your silly stupid words, Rob!! What the hell does that mean??

Uhh... not sure, but I'll tell you what I think it means:

You've read about Prototype 1 and then Prototype 2. Those were efforts to implement features that represent the functional and playable standard of our goal: an Infinity Engine style of game. Those efforts were focused collaborations of designing, programming and art-ing things, trying them out, addressing problems as they came up (visual, functional or otherwise failing to live up to our standard) and repeating. The art goals were held to an 80-90% complete (aka: unpolished). The remaining 10-20% of work will be left toward the end of the "next phase," as always there will be edits and modifications after initial implementation of art. The basic truth of this interactive artistic endeavor that we are involved in is that you can't know it's a worthwhile experience, until you make it, people play it, and then provide feedback. We adjust our work to that feedback - a feedback loop. Boom! Consider yourself educated.

The "next phase" is a Vertical Slice. This is a goal in which we focus on one part of the game within a shell of what is essentially the fully-featured game - relying on the things developed in the prototypes, as well as implementing a fully-functional UI, attempting to finalize all art and gameplay to a more polished standard, and accommodate design changes that are required to make the player experience more complete - as if this part were a finalized, short game in itself.

Environment Artists
Hector - Wilderness Areas
Our Lead Environment Artist has been developing a couple of our larger external landscapes. He's doing this on the basis of a designer's block-out: a crude-but-playable space. This includes the sculpting of terrain geometry in ZBrush, application of grass and dirt via mesh painting and masking in Maya, placement of objects such as structures, trees, and rocks, etc., lighting and rendering the scene, which generates our super-cool depth info. He imports all those results into the game, and then Design says: "Hey, something has come up and we need a temple in the village." So, Hector moves and massages the scene around to accommodate the change and steps through the process again. In the prototype, iteration of the village, a temple wasn't required. For the Vertical Slice, having a place where one can get quests and learn some spiritual-magicky stuff, is an important feature to include. So, we find a way to happily put it in.
Sean - Dungeon/Crypt and village interiors

Our other Environment Artist has been working on interiors of village structures and dungeons! He uses ZBrush less for his environments as a whole, and more as a means of creating smaller natural-looking rocky things and dungeon walls. Beyond that the techniques for implementing his work are the same. The feedback and iteration with design usually yields similar tweaks and modifications. Changes like: "Uhh...we can't have a door here, anymore. Can we make it a pile of collapsed rocks, instead?" Of course the answer is "Yes!"

The answer has to be "yes," because the game is worthless if the gameplay isn't worthwhile. It could be that an important critical path encounter needs to occur, maybe because the story evolved or it’s just too good an experience to allow an alternate route to exist. Ultimately, we trust our designers to wrestle with these issues and come to us with changes that matter. So if they come to us with a change, and the adjustment is reasonable and the time exists to make it, we will do it.

Animators
Mark - Principle Animation of All Things with Arms and Legs
Our Lead Animator has been handling much of the animation requirements for the playable races. This process is also an iterative one. Design has ideas about how they want playable characters to interact with the world and enemies, and Mark then creates a set of individual animations that then blend into each other as needed, in Unity. In addition, he has created essential animations for the Skuldr and the Ogre. Essential animations are typically basic locomotion (including: walk, run and at least one idle) attacks (melee and ranged, if applicable) getting hit and dying. There are others. He blocks them in (a term for making things functional fast), puts them in the game, then he refines them. As team members playtest the game, they provide feedback. Mark continues refining until everybody is happy or the game ships - whichever comes first. No, no, no, just kidding! Mark will work tirelessly through endless nights to make certain everybody is happy with the animation.
Antonio - Technical Problem Solving of Physical Things and Process Improvement

I told you all you needed to know about Antonio in my last update. I showed you the rigs and rigs in rigs. These things take a while to refine, as he makes them and then people (Dimitri and Mark) have to use them. As they use the tools, they discover issues and then Antonio has to fix the issues and the process repeats itself until there are fewer and fewer issues to fix. Lately he has been working on a means of batch processing all the animations that Mark creates and efficiently exports them into the game. Mark says it's "awesome." (This is making Dimitri mad. I'll tell you why in a bit.) In addition, he has been developing some cool experiments with cloth and hair. Hopefully, in some near-future update we can show you how great it looks.

Character Artists
Dimitri - Skaen and Visual Differences Between Playable Characters (Races, Males and Females)
Dimitri has been modeling and texturing the dirty, bloody and villainous Skaen Cultists. In-between that he has been re-exporting our characters, as new attachments, bones, weapon attachments, etc. are added to the skeletons. This is a manual process hell that eats at his soul and to see Mark enjoying the fruits of batch process heaven that Antonio has provided him, makes him think of terrible things. One of two things will happen: Dimitri will get over it, or Antonio will help him out soon. He has also been working with our graphics programmer in developing the masking system for how we can increase variety in our characters via color changes on various elements of each. We intend this ability to be passed on to the player, so that they can customize their party's colors.

James - Creatures And Colors
James has been focusing on modeling and texturing a ton of critters, including wurms! - not: worms, nor wyrms, or wirms, but WURMs! That is what we call our baby dragons! He's also been tasked with making certain, that via the tinting and masking that Dimitri worked on, we can generate an infinite variety of People and Monsters, and nobody will know better. Shhhhhh...Wink Wink!

Concept Artists

Polina's concept of lizard-creature-to-be-named-later.

Polina - Drawerings And More Drawerings
Polina has been all over the place since the presentation of the God-like Concept. She's done a bunch of interior concepts, some really cool malevolent spirit-like concepts, the lizard-like creature (below) and more! Polina takes concept development and collaboration very seriously. If I'm not paying attention, or give her a specific number, she will draw variants upon variants of thumbnails and roughs until...I think...forever. So we've restricted her to a certain number of thumbnails before a review. Otherwise we'll have to buy her a new tablet, and that is NOT in the budget!

Kaz - Drawerings And User Experience
As you've seen in recent updates Kaz has been tasked with coming up with cultural differences in in terms of skin color and style of clothing for the various cultural groups that we find in Project Eternity. With this and other concept-y things, he also has been tasked with developing and implementing the look of the UI and the presentation for "scripted events."

Note: Regarding the image with the menubar at the start of the update, as well as the image below. You will notice that they state: "Work In Progress." In fact, the images are screen caps of the source art file for the UI that is being developed for P.E. It represents stylistic choices meant to feel very Infinity Engine-ish. We're a little curious what you might think about it. Let us know.


Scripted event image by Kaz.

Me??? - What have I been doing?
I don't know. I just run around and say some stuff, point to something and say "eww," or "nice," or grab a bunch of people to say stuff like "Yay!" or "boo" at something, draw some stuff, and try to direct stuff, repeat. I am hopeful that these efforts keep people motivated, aware and engaged.

That's it. Update Over. Now talk amongst yourselves...or use ALL CAPS, if you are feeling particularly passionate.

- Rob Nesler, Art Director, Obsidian Entertainment.

PS - Let’s Play Arcanum with Mr. Avellone is coming back soon to an update near you!