Development Info Obsidian's Third Game

[Visbhume]

Yes, Blade Runner came a few years before Neuromancer, the book that kickstarted the movement. Nevertheless, it shares a lot of atmosphere and themes with it.

In fact, when William Gibson was writing Neuromancer, he went to see Blade Runner. He got out of the cinema before the end of the movie because, in his own words, "it was all too similar to what he was trying to do". I suppose the idea was "in the air" during the 80s and crystallized in similar ways.

 

[Sol Invictus]

A Scanner Darkly is extremely cyberpunk.

 

[Visbhume]

Anyways, what about ASD isn't cyberpunk to you? The Scramble Suits? the digital dystopia? The network of cameras watching your movements? It might not be by the numbers cyber punk but there are obvious cyber punk themes.

If you use the etiquette "cyberpunk" on books that existed many years before "Neuromancer", yes. But I think that's a bit too broad. Dystopias and all-controlling governments are a staple of sci-fi. Is "1984" cyberpunk?

I admit I was too harsh. However, I think cyberpunk as a genre has become as trite as tolkienesque fantasy. A cyberpunk CRPG is not an original setting in any way.

 

[Killzig]

Is 1984 Cyberpunk, its considered by some to be, yes.

and I agree that Cyberpunk isn't an original setting, that's kind of obvious but what the hell IS original anymore? It's all been done.

 

[Visbhume]

It's all been done.

No way! There are TONS of unexplored possible settings. I would kill for a harboiled Dashiell Hammet style CRPG, for example. Or a zombie-survival one. Or one set in ancient Greece/Rome. The possibilities are endless. The prospects are depriment.

Of course, maybe what the genre needs is a renovation in the mechanics, and not in the settings.

 

[Jed]

Yes, Blade Runner came a few years before Neuromancer, the book that kickstarted the movement. Nevertheless, it shares a lot of atmosphere and themes with it.

Hmmm. Blade Runner maybe, but PKD, I don't think so. "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (the books it's based off of) was written in 1968 and bears little semblance to anything remotely cyberpunk. I'm sure they'll destroy "A Scanner Darkly" (my own personal favorite PKD), but the book itself is not cyberpunk.

Which isn't to say that PKD didn't influence cyberpunk...

By the by, Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" came out in 1980--four years before "Neuromancer"--and is quite the cyberpunk romp.

 

[Shagnak]

...for the simple fact that cyberspace - a crucial aspect of cyberpunk and the main element that helps distinguish cyberpunk from standard science-fiction - isn't there.

[preach mode ON]

To put it quite simply: "Cyberspace does not cyberpunk make."

"Cyberpunk" as a term was used coined by Bruce Bethke in his short story of the same name in 1983.
Its first usage as a genre description was by author/critic/editor Gardner Dozois around about the same time. He used it slightly retrospectively also, in reference to the body of work from writers that were turning up circa 1980-83.

"Cyberspace" as a term was coined by William Gibson in 1984 in his novel Neuromancer, i.e. after the coinage of the term "cyberpunk".
This novel, as most are aware, "definitively shaped our sense of the subgenre" (P.Nicholls)*, i.e. it is seen as the most popular and influential archetype - but not the only one.
That would mean excluding the likes of Bruce Sterling (who, as Jed points out, predates Gibson on the cyberpunk scene) and Jack Womack, who though are considered as having contributing to the subgenre, have not cleaved to the post-Gibson cliches of the subgenre (unlike Walter Jon Williams with "Hardwired" - an otherwise good book).

As for saying whether earlier fiction is "cyberpunk" or not, it depends on in which mode you are using the coinage. There is a separation between a "movement" and a "classification based on content".
Pre-1980 books that share the same motifs were not part of the cyberpunk movement (unless the authors had a Tardis handy).They definitely can be said to have influenced it, and we can argue on a case-by-case basis whether they have the right ticks in the right boxes to say whether they retrospectively fit the content classification.

Since it is arguable, and creates confusion when people start saying things like "this 1970's science fiction novel is cyberpunk" because it has some sort of VR, some violence, a sassy snappy delivery, a technophilic outlook, and perhaps a touch of how that outlook affects our perception of reality, I tend to just say it is a "precursor to cyberpunk". And if it was high profile enough, "an influence on cyberpunk".

*quote from the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction
[preach mode OFF]

I'm sure they'll destroy "A Scanner Darkly" (my own personal favorite PKD), but the book itself is not cyberpunk.

Yeah, doesn't it annoy you how Hollywood turns "though-oriented" plots into "action-oriented" plots? I'm sure there is a good way of adapting "difficult" plots to a modern movie format, but directors and producers often seem to miss it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well, if there's anyone capable of adapting thought oriented plots from books into thought oriented movies, it's probably Richard Linklater. You can't leave it to the likes of idiots like Paul Verhoeven to adapt a decent book into the movie format.

 

[Rune_74]

HOw about

Well I've been reading these forums for awhile....can't say I agree with alot of things that are said but oh well...

So anyways...one setting that is very under represented is a super hero rpg....I mean we have strategy superhero games...and semi rpgs with xmen legends...but really more action...and we have online games...but nothing single player...

there was a game along time ago that was supposed to come out and never did I think it was called champions...something like that would rock....design your own character and take it into a living world....or hell you could even be hit with a random set of powers and made to roleplay it out...

anyways I don't think a game like this is hard to do now adays....and if it was ever to get done it should be done soon while heroes are hot at the box office...

 

[Spazmo]

OBSIDIAN ENTERTAINMENT PRESENTS: RIPPED

You know it's true.

 

[Jed]

OBSIDIAN ENTERTAINMENT PRESENTS: RIPPEDYou know it's true.

Zzzzoom! *sweeps hand over head*

And really, can I just pimp Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" one more time? A really great book packed with tons of energy and ideas.

 

[Claw]

Is 1984 Cyberpunk, its considered by some to be, yes.

Mostly however by morons who claim that anything dystopian is cyberpunk, as well as post-apocalyptic settings.

A cyberpunk CRPG is not an original setting in any way.

Why, because there are so many? Such as..

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

To put it quite simply: "Cyberspace does not cyberpunk make."

If you remove cyberspace from cyberpunk, how is it any different from any other science fiction story? Cyberpunk manages to be a sub-genre of science fiction precisely because of its focus on a different aspect - again, information technology, cyberspace. Its a fundamental 'playground' for the cyberpunk concept.

"Cyberpunk" as a term was used coined by Bruce Bethke in his short story of the same name in 1983.
Its first usage as a genre description was by author/critic/editor Gardner Dozois around about the same time. He used it slightly retrospectively also, in reference to the body of work from writers that were turning up circa 1980-83.

And Bethke created his first cyberpunk stories with a general idea of a cyberspace in mind:

From Concept to Cold Type

The story itself is, by contemporary standards, unremarkable. A gang of unruly teenagers cut school and go joy-riding around "the Net" on their hopped-up portable computers, committing casual acts of vandalism and just generally being a$holes. Our hero is a good kid who's fallen in with a bad crowd; his parents eventually realize something is wrong and try to suppress the relationship. This results in the kid finally using his technical skills for deliberate purpose, to rebel against his parents -- and to win, because the paradigm shift is completely in his favor.

Taken from Bruce Bethke's site, more accurately, from his The Etymology of "Cyberpunk" page. While not coining the word cyberspace itself, it seems clear to me the idea was roughly the same, although largely developed by Gibson (who came up with the nomenclature) and others.

Going further into the etymology of it, you'll find the 'cyber' term relates to the term cybernetics, used by Norbert Wiener. The development of computer technology in his time began to find it its way into his fields of study (he envisioned an anti-aircraft system which used a "feedback loop that gave a controller information on the results of its actions"; interestingly, quite similar to what is described in Gibson's novel, relating to the immediate feedback visible when using cyberdecks), and eventually computers were used for his system. The term cybernetics became confused with computers, the prefix 'cyber' following soon after, later on used for several other concepts (ie, cyborgs, cyberspace).

That would mean excluding the likes of Bruce Sterling (who, as Jed points out, predates Gibson on the cyberpunk scene) and Jack Womack, who though are considered as having contributing to the subgenre, have not cleaved to the post-Gibson cliches of the subgenre (unlike Walter Jon Williams with "Hardwired" - an otherwise good book).

No, it wouldn't mean excluding them. It would mean comparing what came before and after the works that consolidated the genre. If you look at the work of Gibson (I'm thinking of the entire Sprawl Series, not just Neuromancer) it's basically a rather large form of compendium on all the ideas that came before. But it's also accepted that it's among the most representative and ultimate novels on cyberpunk (I'd call it the best representative, but hey, I'm likely biased on that). It's a consolidation of the fragments that came before, and presents the model of subsequent cyberpunk literature that would follow for a time.

As for saying whether earlier fiction is "cyberpunk" or not, it depends on in which mode you are using the coinage. There is a separation between a "movement" and a "classification based on content".

I usually go with a bit of both.

Pre-1980 books that share the same motifs were not part of the cyberpunk movement (unless the authors had a Tardis handy).They definitely can be said to have influenced it, and we can argue on a case-by-case basis whether they have the right ticks in the right boxes to say whether they retrospectively fit the content classification.

Before Neuromancer, cyberspace as we understand it today, wasn't a solid concept. There were hints spread across several visions of several authors. After Neuromancer, it's been finally shaped and defined. As you say, several works influenced it, there's no denying it. You'll see the prototype of an anti-hero was already visible in Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination; William Burroughs's take on artificial paradises was seen in The Soft Machine; and Samuel R. Delaney created a streetwise cyborg in Nova. The Sprawl Trilogy managed to condense all of these things into a single thing. But having influencial elements does not really mean they should be placed under the same exact category, does it?

Anyone could very well write a cyberpunk story without mentioning cyberspace (for a various amount of reasons), and it would still likely be considered a cyberpunk story, but there's a thin line on wheter it belongs to general sci-fi or cyberpunk. I don't propose to claim that all cyberpunk novels need to have cyberspace in order to be considered cyberpunk... But a use of cyberspace would definitely dispell doubts about its proper categorization, no?

Overall it just seems to me that cyberspace as been cut off of the equation for no good reason and anything that retains all other elements remains classified as cyberpunk, when cyberpunk is what basically set the genre apart from other works.


Also. Speaking of Blade Runner, it's a curious thing, because I heard it was originally billed as a science fiction movie but was later coined as cyberpunk after the movement gained notoriety, same as with other works of fiction, some of which already mentioned here. If this is indeed true, it would explain some things.

 

[Saran]

Hmmm so let me get this straight:

WOD setting:

Vampire Goths.

They use blood to power their magic abilitys.

Emo-bitch style Angst and a desire to stick it to the Antediluvians.

All of the above=GAY!


Your typical cyberpunk book/game/movie

HAXX0RZ Goths.

They use cyberspace and information technology/Implants as if it was magic

Emo-bitch style Angst and the desire to stick it to the man.

All of the above: the shit.

Yes, WOD is indeed nothing more than a serial case of faggotry.............i think ?!?!

And no, im not a vamp fanboy, the only reason i even know about it is becuase of V:TM Redemption and V:TM Bloodlines, in fact i couldnt really give a shit about another one becuase the new WOD is (IMHO) shitty.

So yea, more cyberpunk and steampunk would be class, and as far as sci-fi is concerned we are in desperate need of it due to the riciculous amount of fantasy titles on there way, but is Vampire gayer than cyberpunk?

Pfffft.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Cyberpunk != Goth

 

[Saran]

Cyberpunk != Goth

Vampire != Goth

(well, alright, most of it is, but not all, remember that guy that stands across from the hospital in santa monica? He wasnt a goth, ahaaa, PWNED!)

 

[Naked_Lunch]

He wasn't a vampire, either....

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

The Vampire setting isn't gay, but it's definitely not one I care too much for. I liked Bloodlines for what it was, despite the setting, but I would not like to see another V:TM crpg for awhile.

Cyberpunk would be cool, but it's a genre that would need some serious care taken about it or it could easily end up being serious crap.

Personally, I would love to see more horror crpgs that aren't a part of the WoD universe but something unique. Heck, I'd be happy with more Lovecraftian stuff. There's not enough of that out there to suit my needs.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Your typical cyberpunk book/game/movie

HAXX0RZ Goths.

Goths? No. Neo wasn't a goth. Some gothic ravers visited his apartment at the start of the first movie, but he wasn't one of them. Johnny Mnemonic wasn't a goth, either nor were most characters in that movie.

They use cyberspace and information technology/Implants as if it was magic

Not really. You could say that Tom Clancy's characters use the Echelon system and CIA gadgets like it was magic, too, but it's not the same thing, is it?

Emo-bitch style Angst and the desire to stick it to the man.

Nope, this is totally false. Cyberpunks don't angst about not being able to fit in with society or how much better they are than the 'kine' just because they drink blood and can't take the sun, but are immortal.

Some cyberpunk books and movies may be about overthrowing the corporate dystopia, but a lot of them aren't. Ghost in the Shell, which is definitely Cyberpunk, wasn't anything like that. Vampire settings aren't about sticking it to the Antedilluvians anyhow, come to mention it.

Here's what others thought of your post:

[22] <Aegeri> What point is Saran in that thread trying to make anyway?
[22] <@Saint_Proverbius> You're assuming there is one.
[22] <Aegeri> Hmmm
[22] <Aegeri> That was probably my first mistake
[22] <@Saint_Proverbius> I'm sure Saran has one, or thinks he has one. However, I'm not sure that he really does.
[23] <Aegeri> Maybe he just has a thing for goth emo

 

[bryce777]

Well hopefullly it will be a genuinely NEW game and not another licensed game.

I have to say that if this is so then Obsidian is very wise businesswise - let their programmers work on a new engine while they do licensed games with old engines to make cash, and then when they have made enough progress and a little bit of a name for themselves then they can unveil their new game universe and hopefully wow everyone. If troika had done it this way maye they would still be around.

Of course, this is just wild speculation and they could be about to make a console game called Elminster Vs. Driz'zt....

 

[Petey_the_Skid]

nope, petey, they changed the world. you won't find the old clans in it.

from AD&D to 3.0 there were not class or alignment changes in dungeons and dragons.

i saw the new vampire and the changes in the world are bigger than in rules.

Actually, most of them are still there, they just changed the names of them, I suppose some of the major changes are with the setting, but also particularly with the rules system(It's now Vampire: The Requiem, Instead of Vampire: the Masquerade). Generation, which was a big regulator to you're power level back in the day, has been completely replaced by a new system called blood potency. They also completely fucked over the physical disciplines, hence why I have not yet bought the books yet even though they were on sale october of last year. I is grumpy and white wolf is fucked in the head if they think I'm going to spend another $300-400 + dollars on rulebooks and supplements when they had just revised the Masquerade game about a year and a half before.

 

[Shagnak]

@Role-Player: nice reply! I'm glad I didn't get some crap Volournesque response :D
First, I'll cut to the chase and go straight to the bits that really address my original "complaint" (too harsh a word perhaps...)

IIf you remove cyberspace from cyberpunk, how is it any different from any other science fiction story? Cyberpunk manages to be a sub-genre of science fiction precisely because of its focus on a different aspect - again, information technology, cyberspace. Its a fundamental 'playground' for the cyberpunk concept.

I'll take this as your central thesis, and the one that I (partly) disagree with. It is inarguable that Cyberspace is often seen as central to cyberpunk, but my point was that examples exist without it.
But then, quite pleasantly, you take it easy on me by discussing in a reasonable manner, and essentially we agree...

Anyone could very well write a cyberpunk story without mentioning cyberspace (for a various amount of reasons), and it would still likely be considered a cyberpunk story, but there's a thin line on wheter it belongs to general sci-fi or cyberpunk.

I agree. You can write cyberpunk without cyberspace, and, yes, classification can often be arguable, but not always.

I don't propose to claim that all cyberpunk novels need to have cyberspace in order to be considered cyberpunk

Thats good, because that was really my only bone of contention. I'd say we largely agree on what makes up "cyberpunk" then. Possibly. Cos you wiggle around a bit next...

... But a use of cyberspace would definitely dispell doubts about its proper categorization, no?

Yes, but only if the other cyberpunk elements are present.
There are works with cyberspace (or a renamed equivalent) that certainly are not cyberpunk. This you would agree on, right? This may be because the concept of cyberspace had entered common science fiction nomenclature.
It would seem therefore that more than just the cyberspace element is required to make cyberpunk. As I originally wrote, if it has cyberspace as well as other cyberpunk elements then it certainly fullfills the most popular archetype as typified by Gibson. But there are other archetypes.

No, it wouldn't mean excluding them. It would mean comparing what came before and after the works that consolidated the genre.

We agree on this. Once again, my statement was based on if you took it as read that it had to have "cyberspace" in it; which is what I disagree with. Going by what you have written so far you disagree with your original statement as well, i.e. that there are other cyberpunk works, that whilst did not "consolidate the (sub)genre" and do not have the archetypal cyberspace, are still cyberpunk.

But it's also accepted that it's among the most representative and ultimate novels on cyberpunk (I'd call it the best representative, but hey, I'm likely biased on that). It's a consolidation of the fragments that came before,

By what I wrote you should have seen I agree with this.

and presents the model of subsequent cyberpunk literature that would follow for a time.

As we have both indicated, it is the most common archetype, and it is therefore the most common "model".
My point is simply that it is not the only one. That there are plenty of cyberpunk examples, both before and after Gibson, where the emphasis is not "cyberspace" or its equivalent. Some of Sterling's stuff is a good example, for fiction written both before and after Gibson got his gear on.

Overall it just seems to me that cyberspace as been cut off of the equation for no good reason and anything that retains all other elements remains classified as cyberpunk, when cyberpunk (<-- you mean "cyberspace here"?) is what basically set the genre apart from other works.

I'm not going that far
I'm not cutting it out of the equation. I think there is a melange of stuff, that reaches a critical mass, upon which it is recognisable as "cyberpunk". Cyberspace does have a large part of that equation, but does not by itself define cyberpunk as being cyberpunk..

So...I can only assume that you do agree with me, and that your original "off the cuff" statement was simply that.
Hell, I pretty much agree with everything you said up there, with the only exception being the original blanket statement.

Good discussion.
Are you like me in that you read shitloads of non-fiction about fiction? I seem to have every "Encyclopedia of..." that I can get my hands on, and yes, I'm big enough of a geek to actually read them cover to cover!

*snip* ... But having influencial elements does not really mean they should be placed under the same exact category, does it?

Correct. I was trying to indicate that it was arguable. However there are examples immediately prior (i.e. written 1980-83) to the coinage of the movement that are quite rightly considered part of it.


Smile...we're still friends.

 

[Volourn]

"I'm glad I didn't get some crap Volournesque response"

Stupid troll.

 

[Shagnak]

"I'm glad I didn't get some crap Volournesque response"

Stupid troll.

"Volournesque" - after years of crap responses from you, the term has become thoroughly legitimised (at least on this forum).

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

@Role-Player: nice reply!

Thanks, I do my best

Basically we seem to be on a fairly equal level on this, as I think we agree on the subject (as you've noted and pointed out as well). The basic disagreement seemed to stem from the statement I have made earlier, so in an attempt to more or less close the cirle, I'll condense and rephrase it a bit - I still believe cyberspace is a fundamental aspect of cyberpunk literature, though it's certainly possible to create cyberpunk works without using it, just as it would be possible to create them by not mentioning other elements of cyberpunk.

We agree on this. Once again, my statement was based on if you took it as read that it had to have "cyberspace" in it; which is what I disagree with. Going by what you have written so far you disagree with your original statement as well, i.e. that there are other cyberpunk works, that whilst did not "consolidate the (sub)genre" and do not have the archetypal cyberspace, are still cyberpunk.

Although I'm not an expert on cyberpunk literature (or any literary genre, for that matter), I seem to find a growing absence of cyberspace in several cyberpunk works that mantain all other aspects, and in the end they become very similar, if not nearly identical, to standard science fiction. And this part I should have explained better, admitedly. I believe it's of paramount importance, and greatly helps define the sub-genre, but it's not essential to be used in a story of said sub-genre... But at some point, it's continuous absence may drag its nomenclature down and change its definition into something incomplete.

Are you like me in that you read shitloads of non-fiction about fiction? I seem to have every "Encyclopedia of..." that I can get my hands on, and yes, I'm big enough of a geek to actually read them cover to cover!

I used to do it more often in the past, reading up books and every bit of information I could find online Right now I'm cutting back on it and am resuming my interest on fiction (both reading and writing) rather than, as you say, non-fiction about fiction.

Smile...we're still friends.

Very much so