On Locales, Characters and Imershun

[Barrow_Bug]

So, this is a topic I've wanted to start at the Codex for a while now. One of my favorite factors in a CRPG is the discovering of new "hubs" wherein the PC can meet new characters and see new locales. I always look forward to the new and interesting people I'll meet, the style of the town or settlement, and the new stories and quests it will generate.

If we use a bad example (here we go) Fallout 3 is not the kind of thing I'm talking about. There are really only 3 or so biggish towns and the rest are made of settlements containing no more than, like, 5 fucking people.

A good example would be The Witcher. You enter a township or village, and there's children playing in the street and vendors hocking their wares. There's old people, young people dogs and chickens. Guards patrol, whilst musicians and performers caper about. This (for me) is what makes CRPG's interesting.

My question is, what are some good examples of "hubs" that really generate an authentic feeling of you "being there". What are your favorites and why?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

The NWN 2 OC orc caves are the best and worst of this.

Best: whenever you enter a room you can tell what it's used for, unlike most RPG dungeons which seem gamey and purposeless.

Worst: there is no interaction, all of the orcs just attack you.

 

[Trash]

Awesome topic! One of the things I like best is exploring new locales and interacting with the game world and it's inhabitants. Unfortunately there have been only a few rpg games that really managed to bring a gameworld to life in a memorable way.

Ultima 7 is perhaps the earliest and most succesfull of these games. All the inhabitants had little lives of their own. It was a joy to follow one npc around as he stood up, ate breakfast, went to work on the farm and finally went to the pub before going back to bed. The world really came to life, especially when you noticed how interactive everything was.

Gothic 2 is the second game that managed to do just this and even in glorious 3d! Walking around town and seeing how the inhabitants interacted with each other, sat smoking in the pub or sold their wares in the market made me really feel like being there.

The Witcher really managed to portray a wide variation of living locales. From exploring the different districts of the main city to entering the fishing village or a roadside inn, all felt alive and real. It's the best portrayal of a medieval european world in a game to date and was a true joy to explore. One of the funniest things I noticed was that while in a settlement sometimes a child would curiously follow your character, only to run away when you turned and looked at them. It really brought home the notion that my character was a freak in the gameworld. Talk about immersion.

Darklands only worked with an overland map and menu's when you had an encounter or happened upon a city or village. The menu's however where so well written and so diverse that they just drew me in. Even after years of playing I sometimes encounter a new one of have an outcome I've never seen before.

Betrayal at Antare is in many ways the ugly little sister of the beauty that Betrayal at Krondor was. It does have however it's own charm in the way that many of the houses and locales you visit have encounters, beautifully drawn interiors or vivid descriptions. It's one of the few points where this game really shines.

Avernum 4 and 5 both offer a huge world to explore. Despite it's shoddy graphics and engine Vogel really draws you in by the way he manages to make the world seem real. Dungeon's here are not just mazes in which to kill monsters, they actually have a purpose that you can easily deduct. From fortresses to outposts to abandoned farms. The game applies this to everything it shows in the game, so that in the end I really felt like my hardy band of adventurers where exploring a vast underground realm.

TOEE is buggy, boring and everything but immersive. It does however have a tutorial in which your lone adventurer is exploring a crypt and the game actually gives you descriptions of the rooms he explores. I was really taken by surprise by this and felt for a moment like I was playing a tabletop rpg. It's an incredibly awesome feature that more games should have.

 

[darthdarther]

All the Quests for Glory. I know there's pretty much only one town in every game, but the towns had so many different, vibrant characters. The writing was lame sometimes (too many fucking puns), but they really got the imershun bit down.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

The Witcher did right what Oblivion did horribly wrong. It's locales are full of people, including children, who do a whole lot of sensible stuff you'd expect them to do, instead of just staring at walls for 12 hours a day and then going to sleep. Though I found it annoying that those people I need don't stay put, but wander around, run for cover when it rains, etc.

Both Fallouts (always mentioned no matter the topic, I suppose) also did this mostly right, though the people only wander around aimlessly or just stand there (though some of them did go to sleep etc), but the towns have cattle pens, toilets and whatever you'd expect them to have, also a ton of people to talk to, many of them pretty memorable.

Lack of interesting hubs or "immersion" easily breaks a CRPG, not necessarily but if there's also weak gameplay (like, again, in Oblivion. Or Mass Effect, I certainly don't give shit about meeting new people or going to new places, nor do I find the Halo with 2 stats combat exciting.) theres not much reason to play.

 

[racofer]

^Another topic polluted with Oblivion's name.

Decline of the codex.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Well, what do you expect? That was what Oblivion was promised to be all about, why it was the game of all years 90++. That it was a complete failure in immersion and exploration is kind of odd, but you know that.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Wasteland was brilliant for this kind of thing. Areas had a large amount of explanations detailing the various rooms and locales, all of which were generally well written and helped you picture the scene in your mind. The inhabitants were also brought out in colourful details...

and then you make them explode like a blood sausage. Absolutely fantastic!

 

[Elwro]

Khorinis in G2 was great, even if not much happened in the rich district other areas were lively and believable.

 

[Kingston]

The Baldur's Gates did this well. Athkatla was a great hub.

 

[JarlFrank]

Going to second Gothic2's Khorinis. Awesome city, it really felt like a living town when I first entered it. Planescape Torment also wins big time with its interesting locations and characters to discover within the city of Sigil.

 

[Heresiarch]

I find Daggerfall's cities to be the most immersive of all times: they're always massive, full-scaled, with huge, long walls and countless houses, thousands of civilians walking around, sounds of cats and dogs around corners, and never forget the brilliant music. Until this day, one of the most relaxed and immersive RPG moment I've ever experienced is riding on a horse, listening to the winter music, and riding around the town while watching the sky snows in DF.

They way you can interact with the cities is great too - after killing a random citizen, having the infamous "halt! halt! halt!" guards all chasing behind you, while running toward the nearest wall and climb up and then jump off the other side to escape beats every GTA escaping experience.

And the "VENGEANCE...", with all the houses door closed but windows lit, and after running for your life to the nearest tavern away from the ghosts, finally stumbled inside and have the painful yet wonderful tavern music ringing, is some of the best moment in CRPG.

Granted, DF's cities is sure filled with randomness, it still beat every game that have a dozen of population around half of dozen of huts and claim it's a "town", and created some of the most imershive and unforgettable gaming experience.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Haha, I have to agree with the OPs sentiments. Exploring a new city is always exciting and one of the best parts of RPGs.

Games that did manage to pull this off:
Gothic 1 (mainly the old camp, didnt find the other camps that interesting)
Gothic 2
Baldurs Gate
Baldurs Gate 2
Teh Witcher
Planescape Torment
Ultima 7

Morrowinds capital city was a major dissapointment.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Indeed. Cities in Daggerfall were pretty damn awesome. The only very small grudge I had with it were the citizens being walking Wikipedias and absolutely nothing else, but then again, giving a personality to every of like a thousand of NPCs would be pretty... tricky to say the least.

 

[Thrasher]

Here's a third on the realistic feeling of Gothic 2's Khorinis town. Thinking about it makes me want to replay G2 with the official add-on...

 

[King Crispy]

I think Nulb in ToEE deserves a mention. While not particularly immersive, it did have an interesting layout and its atmosphere of wickedness and being a true backwater community made it worth exploring.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

I really wish more games put more effort into making a living world. It's a time-consuming business - I wanted to have kids running around playing in an area I worked on, but they need AI path points, and weird bugs appear, and when you're working on a sharp time limit, stuff like that is always the first to go.

It was really fun, I must admit, writing dialogue for the NPCs. I had to be reined in at several points and constrainted to one line for the average passerby, which was annoying, but sort of pushed me to make each one the best... or the most suitable. There's one section of SoZ where I really REALLY wanted to make more dialogue, but couldn't... but I think the area is still pretty rad. Anyhow.

The thing that reminds me of NPC dialogue the most is something that an acting teacher told me back when I was really focused on "breaking in" to the acting world (ha, ha, HAHAHHAHA yes I was young and dumb). Even if you play an extra with all of one line, in your character's mind, this play is about YOU. You're not an extra, you're not a bit player, it's your life, and all the crap happening around you is the incidental part. Not to make one ham it up, but just focus on creating your own identity. If there's crap happening in a town that's worrisome, people should bring it up, but they care how it relates to THEIR lives - if there's an economic disturbance going on in the Sword Coast (just you know, for example) the average citizen isn't going to really give a fuck that Waterdeep might try to nab political power - they're going to be pissed that turnips are now three times the price or something. So much for that new saddle they wanted to buy!

Although all the same, give me a city with 6 guys in it that are all worthwhile to talk to instead of a town full of 20 people who all give you the equivalent of the "times are tough" line.

 

[Texas Red]

My most memorable area was the rich ward in Sigil. I don't think games of today can convey that strong sense of aristocracy and hedonism, followed by weirdness. The Brothel, the art gallery, artists on the street etc. all made that area indescribably beautiful.

As a designer, what's your take on the Hive and Clerk's Ward, Annie?

 

[MountainWest]

Didn't see Ultima Lazarus mentioned. It's one of the absolute best games when it comes to "living world".

 

[Starwars]

Cities are always exciting and I really wish more games went for a "thicker" atmosphere in their cities. Or making the whole game take place in the city. That's actually one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the much-delayed Mysteries of Westgate.

Anyhow, Athkatla and Sigil are probably the strongest in my mind if I'm asked to think of good cities. Moreso than just being interesting in themselves, having interesting NPCs and nice graphics, they also nail the audio side of things which is very important.
But yeah, Sigil is pretty amazing in this area. So very varied as well, truly amazing.

Tarant in Arcanum was really cool the first time around. And while I think the areas in that game are a bit of a pain to navigate sometimes, it also worked in Tarants favour and made it seem big and confusing at first.

The Witchers Vizima is also *awesome*. It truly feels like a shithole (in the slums at any rate) and the deal was sort of sealed for me when monsters appeared in the middle of the night, right near these homeless old women. It didn't feel like a nice place to live, and it absolutely oozes atmosphere.

The city of Almraiven in the NWN1 mod of the same name is very good and has a different layout. Lots of small areas which feel very compact and compressed really makes it feel like a tightly built city, that is bustling with merchants hawking their wares and drunks shouting in the background. It really nailed that feeling that you're going down tight alleyways, pushing people out of the way in the bazaars. It's really well done and an extremely impressive modding effort.

I liked Fallouts settlements as well (especially the Hub) but the thing that makes them work is more the fact that there are endless stretches of wasteland outside them.

Also, while not as textured and dense as these locations, I have a soft spot for Mulsantir in Mask of the Betrayer simply because I found it a really beautiful location and the music was so fitting. The area designer really did Mulsantir well I think.

 

[Raapys]

Daggerfall cities were awesome.

I also liked the hubs in Bloodlines. They all had a distinct feel and music style to go with them. Obviously the game's superb general atmosphere helped alot, too.

 

[ushdugery]

I felt junktown in fallout showed places that all had meaning even if you weren't there to interact with it, not just another place for you to sell your loot and pick up some quests. Recently in my friends D&D campaign we were trying to raid this goblin underground cavesystem and he designed it really well all the places had meaning, it wasn't just trap and then fight x monsters. The best part was when the goblins set up a barricade using overturned mine carts across the other side of a stoneworks and we had to find a way around without getting cut down by arrows.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Heh. Sigil... the first time I stepped outside, I remember being so intimidated by a city so full of life that I did the game version of a tourist dunking their head into a guidebook - I ran for a gamefaq. Eventually I stopped being a cheater-type and just walked around enjoying the place, and the variety of it. Cities where it's not just the same carbon-copy human - MAN that is so refreshing! We had to cut Lantan from our plan for NX2, but man, I was so keen on being able to do that area simply because it would be different than seeing things at the standard human height... and instead of brown and gray it would be boilerplate copper, patina green, polished brass... ahem. Sigil was also excellent in bringing about a great sense of atmosphere.

Goddammit. You fucking people! I'm trying to be all responsible and job-search-ey, and you've made my brain go PLAY FALLOUT PLAY PST PLAY BLOODLINES PLAY THIS PLAY THAT PLAY PLAY PLAY and I'm champing at the bit for some RPG immersion STAT. I mean, YAY, you guys are gonna get Storm of Zehir in less than a week (I think in the US at least) so you have that, but I'm twitching for a good RPG like I'm having a seizure. NYARRRRRGH!

That does it. Time to go play a Malk and yell at some stop signs.

 

[1eyedking]

Tarant.

No other hub beats it.

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

I dunno, cities and settlements in games have been recreated rather well - usually games tend to think BIG by default anyway. Leading you on a globe-spinning adventure with plenty cityscapes and fresh locales to explore are a favourite habit of theirs. So while honorable props go out to Sigil, Lost Haven (Mafia), and just about any GTA game, it's the odd smaller scale, intimate places that appear to be lacking. Heck, it's intimate, small-scale *games* that are lacking.

Being aware of strolling into the vasts land of offtopicery, albeit slightly, I'm still waiting for that game that has you locked inside your room, tied to your bed, suffering nightmares and fighting inner demons rather than meeting a cast of fourty-two, and slaughtering the seven spawns of hell and beyond.