Paladins in Baldurs Gate

[Andhaira]

Is there any incentive to pick Ajantis? I never had him as a permanent party member, and was wondering if he is any good? Can his detect evil ability be used in conversation? (I don't see much else use for it otherwise)

 

[Murk]

No, detect evil is mostly useful for finding out whether or not holy smite will work on enemies. He has great saving throws as all paladins do but his fighting stats are kind of low (str is 17, con is 16, dex is 13). Lay On Hands is useful in a pinch when some insta-healing is demanded but it's going to heal like 26 hp at most if you play the game "proper", and so isn't really worth mentioning.

His spell casting, if you even get to it, will be shit since you have access to better clerics in the game, and there are no particularly unique paladin only weapons... no holy avenger either.

I used Ajantis once when I was playing a solo game and my fighet/cleric ran into some trouble damaging the Loup Garou back in Ulgoth's Beard and couldn't damage him... I got Ajantis to use the golden sword of Balduran while my real character tanked the bastard. It worked but I got rid of Ajantis just as quickly, I used him because he was close by...

So... uhh... no, unless you're really desperate for a fighter who is Lawful Good...

A PC Paladin would be far more useful I think, you'd have better character stats (thus better warrior) and you could actually put the Charisma and high saving throws to better use. But Paladins suck no matter what, heh.

 

[Andhaira]

Yeah charisma is only useful for shopkers though.

By holy smite I take it you mean the spell right? ToEE had better use for paladins in conversation.

I'm playing as a fighter mage and really enjoying it. Once I run out of mage spells I quickly don armor and start tanking. Hitpoints are lower than a pure fighter but better than a pure mage. And ofcrouse, thaco is better (I have str 18/73) and I can weild greatswords.

 

[Murk]

Fighter Mages became much more viable in BG2 with spells like stone-skin and protection from weapons types. Also, armors that allow you to still cast spells (Elven chain) and all that other fancy magical shit.

I think da uber build is still Kensai dualled to mage.

Charisma also influences reputation and some npc reactions, but its not a deal even worth bothering about. There won't ever come a point where you will need that extra "edge" charisma gives.

A ranger would be a better option, they advance in spell casting much more quickly and favored enemies are actually useful. The entangle spell is pretty useful at all times, especially when dealing with swarms of weaklings (which Bg1 has quite a bit of).

 

[Qwinn]

I think da uber build is still Kensai dualled to mage.

IMHO, Berzerker dualed to mage > kensai dualed to mage any day of the week.

Paladins in BG2 can be decent, though. Specially Undead Hunters or - Cavaliers, I think? The immunities are nice.

Qwinn

 

[Tigranes]

Keldorn is much more useful because of Inquisitor True Sight and Carsomyr - Ajantis is pretty forgettable.

 

[Murk]

Inquisitor's ridiculous ability of dispel magic is very useful - they cast the spell with a caster level equal to their experience level, that's like twice the effect of any mage/cleric casting.

The reason I bring up kensai is for the inherent bonuses they get and their primary weakness is one a mage already has.

I do however think a warrior mage benefits from archery more than melee in most settings. That is, generally speaking, a bow-mage will be more useful most of the time but a melee-mage will be able to do some monstrous damage when properly buffed.

I don't even want to imagine what things would be like if you used one of those hacks that lets you dual a monk (at high level of course) to mage ;(

 

[Andhaira]

Whata baout sorcerors (bg2) vs wizards? Sorcs get spells a level late and they have a smaller selection, but they can cast more of them per day right.

Also the pc wizard is always overshadowed by Edwin.

 

[Qwinn]

"The reason I bring up kensai is for the inherent bonuses they get and their primary weakness is one a mage already has."

Well, kensai are also restricted from helms and gauntlets, something any other flavor of fighter mage is not.

Also, the bonuses that kensai get can be mostly duplicated by the berzerker's rage when it's actually needed (which it isn't, most of the time), but what -really- makes the berzerker mage so much better than the kensai mage is the incredible number of immunities you get while in a rage - immune to Charm, Hold, Fear, Maze, Imprisonment, Stun, and Sleep. Those immunities, particularly Imprisonment, make a -huge- difference in many fights in the game.

Qwinn

 

[Murk]

Oh I'm fully aware of the berserker's perks - my favourite human class is berserker dualled to cleric. Anyway, I'm not going to actually argue in favor of kensai mage over berserker mage, I simply said what some perks of kensai mage are.

Best class is, of course, Bard. Eye-lasers and what not...

Andhaira - Sorcerers are artillery, Mages are utility. If your main character is a sorcerer - you're probably still going to need a mage (assuming you're going for a full/balanced party), and yes... Edwin is the best mage ever, like ever ever ever. Ever. The pc's main incentive to be a mage is if you don't want Edwin, are playing the game for the first time, or have some kind of mage fetish where you need ridiculous amounts of fire power (which in all fairness isn't all that ridiculous considering what you go up against in the later half of the game).

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, kensai are also restricted from helms and gauntlets, something any other flavor of fighter mage is not.

-helmets? use IOUN Stones, problem solved
-gauntlets? well this is a disadvantage indeed

Also, the bonuses that kensai get can be mostly duplicated by the berzerker's rage

No they aren't mostly duplicated. You might get half the bonuses the kensai has all the time (if you dual the kensai at 13, when you dual later it should be even less), and you get them for the duration of the rage and after that you suffer penalties. If memory serves rage gives also AC penalty?

immune to Charm, Hold, Fear, Maze, Imprisonment, Stun, and Sleep.

So here come the first real advantages. This stuff is useful early on before you have a cleric with chaotic commands spell, or if you solo. After you reactivated your fighter class it's of no significance anymore, except Maze & Imprisonment. Who attacks you with these spells? Some liches and the Elder Orbs/Hive mother sometimes. Since there is the spell Spell Immunity:Abjuration, that leaves only the Beholders as potential danger.
Btw does Rage protect from these beholder rays that maze or imprison you? Minsks rage at least didn't protect him (in my games) or has he a different kind of rage?

Those immunities, particularly Imprisonment, make a -huge- difference in many fights in the game.

So the difference is HUGE in MANY fights. I say the difference is negligible for the majority of the game. the only time rage really comes in handy is vs Beholders with their anti-magic rays.

 

[Andhaira]

Playing Baldurs Gate after so many years makes me realize that BG2 not only had better rezo, it had better art direction. The buildings looked much better.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

It's always nice to have buildings that look better. :!:

 

[RK47]

Detect evil is actually quite useful for 'hostile detection' IIRC it actually detects any evil aligned creatures in the map you are in. So it could be helpful to cast before exploring. Just in case you want to avoid that Dire wolf etc

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Ha, I've just been browsing all the old BG threads here at the codex trying to glean as much info as I can, and now I've found a new one! :D

You see, after all these years, I've finally decided to complete a full playthrough of the complete BG series for the first time. I'm using the Big World Project (recommended template), which turns BG1 + 2 + and all expansions into one huge seamless game. Not to mention a shitload of tweaks, fixes and mods.

Probably not the best idea for a virgin BG player like me, but as I'm probably only going to have time for one playthrough, I want to have the best experience I can from it straight up.

I'm having a blast with it so far, can't believe I havn't tried it before this. Which makes me wonder - why are there so many BG hater's here at the codex?

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

pretty sure the blade is the best overall class.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

pretty sure the blade is the best overall class.

Blade is pretty badass that's true, but they never get L8/9 spells nor HLAs like Planetar or Dragonbreath, so they loose to F/Ms. But they are really good though. Haerdalis is probably one of the most useful companions, at least at higher levels.

 

[Andhaira]

Are you kidding me? Nearly everyone is better than haerdalis. I mean, you have edwin, keldorn, anomen, viconia, jaheira, cernd and korgan.

 

[Gragt]

Let's not forget Aerie.

 

[pipka]

The best way to play BG is to make your proper kit. Modding BG is so easy.
I had a blast with my custom thief kit who liked cheese.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Are you kidding me? Nearly everyone is better than haerdalis. I mean, you have edwin, keldorn, anomen, viconia, jaheira, cernd and korgan.

Haerdalis is weak early on when he has few spells and few HPs and when his THAC0 is not yet good. This changes. At higher levels he is really an asset much better than the pure fighter types. Want to know why?

-Blur, Mirror Image, Spirit Armor, Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, Improved Invis, Fireshield
He survives where Korgan and the likes die (or require constant healing etc)

-has Offensive / Defensive Spin
offensive: +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +1 attack per round, all attacks do maximum damage
defensive: -1 AC /level , max -10, can't move but Freedom of Movement( Ring,Spell) negates this

So -10 AC on top of everything else is not bad huh?

- nasty Liches that want to Imprison you? Spell Immunity:Abjuration

- has 2 attacks instead of 1 like Clerics, Thieves , Mages and so on, offhand shortsword that gives an additional attack and he has 3, let him cast Improved haste and he has 6

- after all he's a mage and can cast all the spells up to L7, Minor Sequenzer, Sequenzer, Remove Magic, Emotion, Teleport Field, Contingiency, Breach, Ruby Ray, Tensers Transformation

- he levels pretty fast and will be the first who can summon Skeleton Warriors

let's look at 3 of his HLAs

-Spike Traps, oops
-Use Any Item, don't need to say much about it? This includes also Fighter-only Potions
-Enhanced Bard Song http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/abilities/enhancedbardsong.php
that gives -10 AC for him on top of everything, but it does also something for the rest of the party, have him cast Mislead and then have the Mislead Image play the Bard Song too...it stacks
So -8 AC, -8 THAC0, +8 Damage and minor conveniences like Immunity to Fear and Stun
for everyone in the Party and a bit of MR on top... can Korgan do this?

You think Haerdalis sucks? You're doing it wrong.
I had him solo Yagashura in the Ascension battle, something Korgan wouldn't have so little problem with.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Let's not forget Aerie.

Aerie is actually a pretty powerful caster.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Aerie is actually the best character when it comes to utility

and the worst character when it comes to whining, although she might be on par with Anomen.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Aerie is actually the best character when it comes to utility

and the worst character when it comes to whining, although she might be on par with Anomen.

true

 

[Qwinn]

-helmets? use IOUN Stones, problem solved

Hardly. There are many helms that are considerably more useful than any ioun stone. One of them - the Helm of Balduran - you can pick up at the very beginning of BG2. There's also Vhailor's Helm, Helm of Glory and lots of others. Just because you can put -something- in the slot - and every ioun stone before TOB is really really really really crappy - doesn't mean "problem solved".

-gauntlets? well this is a disadvantage indeed

Indeed. And note that that includes bracers. Bad news for a mage, dontchaknow.

And I forgot to mention the "no missile weapons" thing, too. Pretty big one there.

Also, the bonuses that kensai get can be mostly duplicated by the berzerker's rage

No they aren't mostly duplicated. You might get half the bonuses the kensai has all the time (if you dual the kensai at 13, when you dual later it should be even less), and you get them for the duration of the rage and after that you suffer penalties. If memory serves rage gives also AC penalty?

Who the hell duals -after- 13? You'd have to get to at least 15 to increase kensai bonuses beyond what you get at 12... do that, and you'll get maybe 30 minutes at the end of TOB with both classes activated.

The main argument of when to dual is between 9, 12 and 13. Now, a kensai dualing at 12 or 13 gets +4 THACO and -2 AC. A berserker raged gets +2 THACO and -2 AC. Yeah, I think that qualifies as "mostly duplicated". If you dual at level 9, as many people do, it's even closer, only a one point THACO difference. At any rate, the rage bonuses are equal or BETTER than kensai bonuses at every level up to 9 (which means all of BG1 and some of BG2, if you're playing with TuTu or BGT).

If memory serves rage gives also AC penalty?

No, it gives a 2 AC -bonus-. You only get the AC and THACO penalties after the rage has worn off, but it's very brief. The thing is, you have the bonuses you need for the tough fights, when you need them. What, were you -not- planning on resting immediately after fighting that dragon anyway?

So here come the first real advantages.

Yes, "first", assuming helms, bracers and missile weapons don't count at all.

This stuff is useful early on before you have a cleric with chaotic commands spell, or if you solo. After you reactivated your fighter class it's of no significance anymore, except Maze & Imprisonment. Who attacks you with these spells? Some liches and the Elder Orbs/Hive mother sometimes.

Yes. It is helpful in a majority of those fights that are -actually difficult- to begin with. I don't see a huge lot of gain in getting bonuses for easy fights that you'll blow through and have no problem hitting the targets anyway. The toughest fights in the game involve elder orbs and liches frequently. You can use rage more often than you'll ever actually need to.

Oh, and by the way? Chaotic Commands doesn't help against being Stunned, either. Rage does.

Btw does Rage protect from these beholder rays that maze or imprison you?

Yes.

Minsks rage at least didn't protect him (in my games) or has he a different kind of rage?

His is different. Although, I did think it protected him too. Weird.

So the difference is HUGE in MANY fights. I say the difference is negligible for the majority of the game. the only time rage really comes in handy is vs Beholders with their anti-magic rays.

"The majority of the game" would actually be that portion of the game where you have NOT reactivated your mage abilities, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration isn't available to you. Rage really is available for "the majority of the game". Your work arounds for your kensai aren't.

You really seem to consider trivial fights to, like, really matter. To me, it is perfectly fair to say "MANY" fights, and that they make a "HUGE" difference, because they are useful in many -actually difficult- fights. Trivial fights don't matter.

Also, your solutions require a lot of pre-buffing before fights, Chaotic Commands and Immunity and so forth. Berserker's much more convenient, just rage-and-go. And the berserker can use those spell slots for better purposes. Mage level 5 spell slots are pretty valuable all the way to the endgame due to Breach and Spell Shield.

Qwinn