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Paladins in Baldurs Gate

Qwinn

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I should note that, looking at the available equipment, the gauntlets restriction alone means a +2 AC penalty for the kensai for pretty much his entire career. The berserker mage can easily get his base AC to 3 using bracers. The best the kensai mage can get it to is AC 5 using the Robe of Vecna or Archmages. (Well, the kensai -could- get it to 3 with the Robe of the Apprenti, but that means blowing up your apprentices and giving up all the huge perks of the Robe of Vecna, etc.)

And actually, if the characters we're comparing have less than 16 dexterity, the difference is even larger (since the berserker can use gauntlets of dexterity and get 3 or more better AC that way)

So the kensai AC bonus isn't really a bonus at all. It just offsets the penalty that they get for not being able to wear gauntlets, never mind armor or the better helms. The AC bonus from rage, though, -really is- a bonus above and beyond all other ways to improve AC.

Qwinn
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Qwinn said:

- you have a point that ioun stones before TOB suck, in TOB they are better (or at least the one with the bonus spells)

- bracers for mages? Ghost Armor, Spirit Armor, Potions of Defense, potions of Invulnerability, Amulet of Shielding that stuff was good enough as workaround
I would rather have the gauntlets of Weapons Specs

- missile weapons? Well ok, i wouldn't use them anyway. Why delay the demise of your foes, just go in melee. If you really think you need Missile Weapons use MMM or Energy Blades, of course this costs Spell Slots again

- Kensai gets +4 THAC0 and +4 damage, no AC Bonus (other than the Base AC calculated at char creation 23-Dex) That means you get half the bonus temporarily as i wrote, I didn't mention kai because i think it's not that important but it is there

Sure you have to use your spells. You surely didn't want to tell me that a Berserker/Mage doesn't need his buffs? I played Kensai enough and except early on when you lack equipment and your saves suck all this Fear, Stun and other stuff just doesn't matter. Especially with a party.

I can see the advantage of rage when you solo though. But i think you exaggerate the significance of it.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Qwinn said:
I should note that, looking at the available equipment, the gauntlets restriction alone means a +2 AC penalty for the kensai for pretty much his entire career. The berserker mage can easily get his base AC to 3 using bracers. The best the kensai mage can get it to is AC 5 using the Robe of Vecna or Archmages. (Well, the kensai -could- get it to 3 with the Robe of the Apprenti, but that means blowing up your apprentices and giving up all the huge perks of the Robe of Vecna, etc.)

And actually, if the characters we're comparing have less than 16 dexterity, the difference is even larger (since the berserker can use gauntlets of dexterity and get 3 or more better AC that way)

So the kensai AC bonus isn't really a bonus at all. It just offsets the penalty that they get for not being able to wear gauntlets, never mind armor or the better helms. The AC bonus from rage, though, -really is- a bonus above and beyond all other ways to improve AC.

Qwinn

OK let's talk AC.

Every Kensai should start with 18 Dex because this is the most important.

23-18=5

So 5 Base AC -3 (18 Dex) = AC 2 unequiped.
2 points in 1 handed= AC0
Amulet of Shielding (-6) = -6 AC
Spirit Armor/Potion of Defense/Potion of Inv. = AC-10
some equipment, lets assume an ioun stone AC-1 and the Ring of Gaxx and A Cloak or Ring -2
= AC-15

Fight is difficult? 2 Potions of Mind focussing
final AC -17

Can still be improved...
Not bad for not wearing Armor.
 

Qwinn

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I'm not positive about it, but I believe you are counting several sources of AC as stacking/cumulative that really aren't. For example, I don't think the Robes' base AC 5 is cumulative with the Amulet of Shielding.

The point is, everything you listed, the berserker mage can use also. The only way the kensai makes up for the 2 AC deficiency from lack of bracers is with active spells. So he's consuming charges off items and otherwise a really -high maintenance- character, constantly having to buff himself and always risking having his protections dispelled by enemy casters. Buh bye if you're actually -surprised- by a fight.

Rage, otoh, is not magical, cannot be dispelled, and easy to activate in or out of battle.

In later stages of the game, a berserker mage can fit all the buffs he can make good use of going into battle in a single simple sequencer. The kensai can't even come close, with all the various "work arounds" you've suggested that are needed to make up for what the berserker mage gets with a single click.

For the kensai mage, every tough battle takes several minutes of prep. Even a surprised berserker mage can hit a single sequencer for his defensive buffs, hits rage, and in he goes at pretty much his maximum potential. The kensai's way too high maintenance, and way too dependent on metagaming knowledge, to be as much fun, IMO.

Qwinn
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Qwinn said:
I'm not positive about it, but I believe you are counting several sources of AC as stacking/cumulative that really aren't. For example, I don't think the Robes' base AC 5 is cumulative with the Amulet of Shielding.

The point is, everything you listed, the berserker mage can use also. The only way the kensai makes up for the 2 AC deficiency from lack of bracers is with active spells. So he's consuming charges off items and otherwise a really -high maintenance- character, constantly having to buff himself and always risking having his protections dispelled by enemy casters. Buh bye if you're actually -surprised- by a fight.

Rage, otoh, is not magical, cannot be dispelled, and easy to activate in or out of battle.

In later stages of the game, a berserker mage can fit all the buffs he can make good use of going into battle in a single simple sequencer. The kensai can't even come close, with all the various "work arounds" you've suggested that are needed to make up for what the berserker mage gets with a single click.

For the kensai mage, every tough battle takes several minutes of prep. Even a surprised berserker mage can hit a single sequencer for his defensive buffs, hits rage, and in he goes at pretty much his maximum potential. The kensai's way too high maintenance, and way too dependent on metagaming knowledge, to be as much fun, IMO.

Qwinn

I didn't count AC sources that are not cumulative as being cumulative.
I said a Kensai has a Base AC of 5 (provided he has 18 Dex at char creation) as opposed to the Base AC of 10 a berserker has (and anyone else) - completely unequiped.
A Kensais Base AC is calculated at character creation : 23- Dex Score

Several Minutes Preparation? You exeggerate again. My Sequenzers contain typically 1x malison and 2x Skull Trap, comes in handy too.
 

Qwinn

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said a Kensai has a Base AC of 5 (provided he has 18 Dex at char creation) as opposed to the Base AC of 10 a berserker has (and anyone else) - completely unequiped.
A Kensais Base AC is calculated at character creation : 23- Dex Score

Ah, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Perhaps a PnP manual? In BG2, a kensai simply gets a permanent -2 AC bonus.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgatei ... kensai.php


And 18 Dex is a -4 AC bonus, which a berserker also gets.

So a naked 18 dex kensai has AC 4, a naked 18 dex berserker has AC 6. The berserker, though, has several ways (such as the Bracers AC3 he can easily buy from Ribald early in the game) to make up that 2AC. So, unless he's using active, temporary, interruptable, and dispellable spells on himself, the kensai has the same AC as the berserker without rage or buffs. The berserker's (non-dispellable, easy to buff even in combat) rage is a real bonus. And that's not even counting those long stretches where the berserker can get an AC bonus from that Helm of Balduran, etc., that the kensai can't.

Also, note that if a berserker only uses his magic for buffing, and actually -fights- during combat (which is how I played mine, anyway), then he can always put on that huge hulking set of plate mail after he's done buffing and have WAY WAY WAY better AC than the kensai during the fight.

(No, you don't get to compare kensai with huge dex bonus to berserker with no dex bonus, that's a bit -too- much deck stacking there. Stats are the same for both).

Qwinn
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Qwinn said:
said a Kensai has a Base AC of 5 (provided he has 18 Dex at char creation) as opposed to the Base AC of 10 a berserker has (and anyone else) - completely unequiped.
A Kensais Base AC is calculated at character creation : 23- Dex Score

Ah, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Perhaps a PnP manual? In BG2, a kensai simply gets a permanent -2 AC bonus.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgatei ... kensai.php


And 18 Dex is a -4 AC bonus, which a berserker also gets.

So a naked 18 dex kensai has AC 4, a naked 18 dex berserker has AC 6. The berserker, though, has several ways (such as the Bracers AC3 he can easily buy from Ribald early in the game) to make up that 2AC. So, unless he's using active, temporary, interruptable, and dispellable spells on himself, the kensai has the same AC as the berserker without rage. The berserker's (non-dispellable, easy to buff even in combat) rage is a real bonus. And that's not even counting those long stretches where the berserker can get an AC bonus from that Helm of Balduran, etc., that the kensai can't.

Also, note that if a berserker only uses his magic for buffing, and actually -fights- during combat (which is how I played mine, anyway), then he can always put on that huge hulking set of plate mail after he's done buffing and have WAY WAY WAY better AC than the kensai during the fight.

(No, you don't get to compare kensai with huge dex bonus to berserker with no dex bonus, that's a bit -too- much deck stacking there. Stats are the same for both).

Qwinn

I remembered the AC calculation from PnP (this was the rule for Kensai AC in AD&D) .
Hence it was pretty cool if you could find a reason to have even more Dex than 18 and could convince the DM.
Only -2 AC in Bg2? Well this sucks. I can hardly believe it.
But still, playing Kensai in BG2 i remember having the best AC of the party, so it can't be that bad as you make it look.

Also how many uses of Rage per day has the berserker? How long do they last? How long does the penalty last?
 

Qwinn

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With the 18 DEX and items like Ring of Gaxx and so on, which you'll naturally use on your protagonist, it isn't all that hard to get better AC than on any of your NPC's regardless of what your protagonist's class is. But as high as you got your kensai's AC, a berserker could get it higher, and without interruptable dispellable buffs.

Also how many uses of Rage per day has the berserker? How long do they last? How long does the penalty last?

Since you've based every assumption on dualing at level 12+ (and dualing that late has its disadvantages), the berserker can rage 3 times per day. I'm not sure how long it lasts, but I never had it run out on me during a fight (always had plenty of time to heal up to guard against that 15 temporary HP loss, another bonus we haven't been taking into account btw). And the penalty didn't last long at all, instantly goes away with any resting and I remember being able to simply walk it off on the way to the next encounter.

Qwinn
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Qwinn said:
With the 18 DEX and items like Ring of Gaxx and so on, which you'll naturally use on your protagonist, it isn't all that hard to get better AC than on any of your NPC's regardless of what your protagonist's class is. But as high as you got your kensai's AC, a berserker could get it higher, and without interruptable dispellable buffs.

Also how many uses of Rage per day has the berserker? How long do they last? How long does the penalty last?

Since you've based every assumption on dualing at level 12+ (and dualing that late has its disadvantages), the berserker can rage 3 times per day. I'm not sure how long it lasts, but I never had it run out on me during a fight (always had plenty of time to heal up to guard against that 15 temporary HP loss, another bonus we haven't been taking into account btw). And the penalty didn't last long at all, instantly goes away with any resting and I remember being able to simply walk it off on the way to the next encounter.

Qwinn

Judging by Minsks rage it doesn't last long enough, during the difficult fights (that are not really present in an unmodded game). However i remember some early on fights (solo) where rage (aka immunity to stun etc) would have been pretty good to have. Also i dual at 13 for the additional 1/2 attack. You can reach level 10 just by reading scrolls (after you dualed) and this is without deleting and relearning spells which is silly (you have to dismiss your party temporarily obv). That leaves still 1 million XP to gather but it doesn't take too long.
Whatever, Kensai/Mage is a kickass build amirite? And whether Berserker/Mage has the edge or not is merely nitpicking. Even if you go just for Fighter/Mage (like when you dual Sarevok) you'll end up with a very powerful character.
 

Qwinn

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Judging by Minsks rage it doesn't last long enough

Minsc's rage is entirely different, coded specifically for him. There's even a mod out there to make it work like normal berserker rage does.

Actually, thinking about it, I believe I may have had it run out in that fight in the Underdark where you fight long waves of elementals coming out of 3 portals, and it ran out somewhere after the 2nd portal. I think that's reasonable though, that's a -really really- long fight.

Also i dual at 13 for the additional 1/2 attack. You can reach level 10 just by reading scrolls (after you dualed) and this is without deleting and relearning spells which is silly (you have to dismiss your party temporarily obv).

I usually do too, though I'd never go past 13 (something you implied in your first post on the subject). As for dismissing your party, you can't dismiss them all if you're romancing any of your NPC's (which I will usually do). Except Jaheira, if you're up to powergaming/micromanaging it's possible to squeeze the scribing time in when she briefly heads off to the Harper Hold. I suppose you could also do so when your romance interest gets kidnapped, but that occurs a bit too late to be useful for this tactic. So if you're romancing anyone other than Jaheira, you're gonna have to share half of that xp from scribing, though at least Aerie can scribe and share the xp back, heh.

Anyways.

Whatever, Kensai/Mage is a kickass build amirite? And whether Berserker/Mage has the edge or not is merely nitpicking. Even if you go just for Fighter/Mage (like when you dual Sarevok) you'll end up with a very powerful character.

No real disagreement here - it's still a powerful build. I am nitpicking only in the context of the statement "I think da uber build is still Kensai dualled to mage.", which I realize was made by someone else.

Really, my biggest reason for preferring the berserker is for reasons of having -fun-, not so much power. The berserker mage is very low-maintenance... kensai mages can be very very tough, but they require a lot more micromanagement (read: self-buffing) to reach their full potential.

Qwinn
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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You can dual after 13 if you play solo or bhaalspawn solo (aka only immy & sarevok in tob) or just with only a very small party. it usually involves exploiting a cetain dungeon to fullest extent + the XP from the deck of many things. Also it's still a pain in the ass to reactivate. Now that i think about it it even involved random XP from Lums Machine. It's actually a bit silly.

Kensai THAC0 bonus was helpful a couple of times though, like vs Sarevok wraith (AC-26) in Irenicus Fight (Tactics).
 

Qwinn

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AC -26? Yikes. Seriously? That seems pretty much designed to require a natural 20 for anything other than a 20th level fighter with a +5 weapon and high strength. Even with a +5 weapon (which I don't think you can find by the Irenicus fight), the +4 THACO bonus and a 22 strength, that kensai isn't going to hit that with anything other than a 20. -Maybe- with Crom Faeyr you can hit with anything less, so I hope that kensai specced in warhammers.

I tried Tactics, managed to get through Irenicus's starting dungeon, and then uninstalled it. Nothing was worth that kind of pain. I can only digest so much cheese.

Qwinn
 

Melcar

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Kensai/mage is the best class ever. Gets boring after a while thought, unless you really like cheese. AC is not that important anyway once you get to high levels, and spells like Stone Skin render armor useless.
My last play-through was with a kensai/thief. Fun, specially after you take the Use Any Item ability.
 

DemonKing

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I used Ajantis on my first run-through because with my main character I was replicating my LE necromancer from a PNP game who had deceived a paladin into serving him "for the greater good".

I even did a custom voice set for my guy:

"When you die, can I use your body?"
 

Qwinn

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Heh, yeah, sorry for my derail, I just think it's a fun argument.

And no, you don't need to know this min-maxing stuff at all to do well in the game. We're really arguing the finer points of speccing builds here, same as you can do in WoW, but it doesn't make -that- much difference.

Qwinn
 

oldschool

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I made a multi-class ranger/cleric as a companion on my last playthrough. Turned out pretty uber. You get the full range of wisdom-based spells, can wear any armor & shields. I had him dual-weilding Crom Faeyr and the Flail of Ages, with the Shield of Harmony available for special occasions.

I think you could solo that build pretty well. Maybe drag along Imoen for some thieving and mage support.

I always meant to go back and do a bhaalspawn party with him plus Imoen and Sarevok.
 

Qwinn

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Yeah, there was some oddity in regards to ranger/clerics, something you wouldn't expect that was a really powerful combo, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was. It was pretty huge though. I'm gonna try and see if I can find it.

Qwinn
 

oldschool

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Probably the full range of spells. You end up with all cleric and druid spells. It has been a while, but I think as you went up in cleric level, you automatically got access to the druid spells as well, i.e. you didn't have to wait for the ranger spell level to catch up.

Spell-wise you end up more like a cleric/druid. I believe so, anyway. Like I said, it has been a while. I do know that you ended up with all the wisdom-based spells.
 

Qwinn

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Yep, that's what I was thinking of... looked it up and then saw you'd posted it already, heh.

Yeah, that's probably a bug too, but still, yeah, I can see the appeal. Druids have some very nice spells - insect plague can make lots of really difficult fights remarkably easy (one example: the party of 6 down in the sewers early on... can be a real bitch without IP... but taking it early, it can provide you with a lot of good gear for the early game)

Qwinn
 

AlaCarcuss

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GarfunkeL said:
You can easily play BG-series without knowing all that min/max-stuff. Like you can play WoW without knowing how threat/aggro or mp5 works.

Qwinn said:
And no, you don't need to know this min-maxing stuff at all to do well in the game. We're really arguing the finer points of speccing builds here, same as you can do in WoW, but it doesn't make -that- much difference.
Qwinn

Hehe, yeah I know, I was kidding. I don't even play WoW.

I actually find these kind of arguments very interesting and informative.

A question though - I plan on dueling Imoen to a mage (Conjurer?), on the thief side she'll be specialising in find/remove traps. What level is it best to do this in order to take her all the way to the end of ToB?
 

Qwinn

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If you're planning to do that, you'll be using mods, I take it? Cause Imoen automatically starts as, I think, a level 5 thief dualed to a level 6 mage at the beginning of BG2.

I don't think you can dual to a specialized mage, either, even if you do use mods.

Qwinn
 

AlaCarcuss

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Yep, I'm using the BWP (Big World Project - includes BGT) which makes BG 1 & 2 & expansions into one huge game. No exporting/importing of characters, it's all seemless.

I believe a mod cutscene triggers at the end of ToSC and you end up imprisoned in the dungeon at the start of BG2. I can already see the entire world map including the BG2 areas even though I've only just started BG1.

Sorry, I wasn't sure how the NPC's carried over to BG2 vanilla. I have an old BG1 faq though that recommends dualing Imoen to a Conjurer at level 3, after putting all her thief points into find/remove traps.
 

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