Paladins in Baldurs Gate

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well IF it now all works in BGT as you said and you plan to take Imoen thru the whole game - i suggest you dual her at 9 - not earlier. Because you'll need the points in her skills. All skills below 100 will suck anyway and even then you'll need Potions to increase the thieving skills frequently. That means you probably can't (and shouldn't) dual her during BG1/TotSC but at the beginning of Bg2. Of course you don't have her as a backup Mage during BG1 then.

Hmm, looks like I'm going to have to re-think my party a bit then.

My main is a chaotic neutral, half-elf, multi-classed fighter/mage so I guess I'll have to take Dynaheir along to make up the magic numbers - unless I decide to turn evil of course lol.

Minsc is a given also as he's in BG2 as well. As Imoen is going to specialize in find/remove traps, I'll need another thief for thievery so probably Coran (fighter/thief). Branwen for healing....yep I think that'll work out ok?

Edit: I have completely derailed this thread again, for which I apologise. I do have Ajantis in my party atm, but he wont be ther for long. Just don't see a place for him :D

You have to take both Minsk and Dynaheir, no? If you are F/M then there is no problem, just memorize the mind affecting spells she can't learn and everything is OK. Branwen is always my choice for Cleric that leaves room for Kivan or Coran. Coran rocks at archery but i usually take Kivan because he's good at Archery but can also melee decently if necessary. If you don't dual her early Imoen is just good enough as a Thief.

Don't bother if we derail one of the myriad of threads Andhaira creates on a daily basis.
I'm sure he doesn't mind either. Of course Andhairius has a point that Edwin is a kickass Mage, because of his Amulet of Spellslot Cheating.

@Andhaira: Irenicus has even more Spellslots than Edwin.

 

[Jasede]

Minsk is terrible, but most NPCs are in BG 1. Just be the fighter yourself, pick Kensai in BG 2 as your kit and dual to mage at 11. Now you're the best fighter in BG 1, and the second-best mage in 2, but you get to wield katanas (they can cut through cars).

(I really liked this about BG: no matter how high your INT, no matter what- Edwin will /always/ be a better wizard than you.)

Not that anything of this should matter since 1 single magic user can solo BG 1 & 2.


The only must-have in a BG 1 party is... hm. Tough call, they really are all bad. I'd pick Viconia and the dwarf in Beregost with 20 CON, he's the best NPC Fighter in the game. And of course Kivan, but it won't be long until Viconia, Kivan and that dwarf kill each other because they can't stand each other at all. And, of course, you should take Edwin, since there is absolutely no reason not to take the best wizard in the game and its sequel along. About Ajantis, he's pretty decent, but I don't see why you'd want him over Minsk. The dwarf is better than both of them, though.

 

[Ammar]

(I really liked this about BG: no matter how high your INT, no matter what- Edwin will /always/ be a better wizard than you.)

A Wild Mage can be as good, better in some respects and worse in some. But it's a very close run at the least.

 

[Shannow]

Minsk is terrible, but most NPCs are in BG 1. Just be the fighter yourself, pick Kensai in BG 2 as your kit and dual to mage at 11. Now you're the best fighter in BG 1, and the second-best mage in 2, but you get to wield katanas (they can cut through cars).

Because only Kensais can wield katanas? And why at 11? Doesn't either 9 or 12 make more sense?

And on the whole Berserker vs. Kensai thing: don't forget that you need to get through the early levels, too. While it certainly is possible with any char it is less hassle with a fighter that can effectively double his hp in a pinch at first level and can get AC better than 4. Even studded leather + large shield gives a berserker -1 or so. A kensai will spend most of BG with AC 8 points (or 4-5 if kensai can use shields) worse than a berserker without having significant advantages...

Anyway, when I last played Tenser's Transformation with a f9/m didn't work the way I expected and the way it should have considering the spell desciption. Anybody know why?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Minsk is terrible, but most NPCs are in BG 1. Just be the fighter yourself, pick Kensai in BG 2 as your kit and dual to mage at 11. Now you're the best fighter in BG 1, and the second-best mage in 2, but you get to wield katanas (they can cut through cars).

Because only Kensais can wield katanas? And why at 11? Doesn't either 9 or 12 make more sense?

And on the whole Berserker vs. Kensai thing: don't forget that you need to get through the early levels, too. While it certainly is possible with any char it is less hassle with a fighter that can effectively double his hp in a pinch at first level and can get AC better than 4. Even studded leather + large shield gives a berserker -1 or so. A kensai will spend most of BG with AC 8 points (or 4-5 if kensai can use shields) worse than a berserker without having significant advantages...

Anyway, when I last played Tenser's Transformation with a f9/m didn't work the way I expected and the way it should have considering the spell desciption. Anybody know why?

It is true that you need equipment and/or spells to negate the disadvantage of not being able to use Shields, Armor, Helmets and gauntlets. But the advantages you have are not insignificant. Btw Kensais also get steadily increasing speed factor. And they have Kai, to strike for maximum damage (2 rounds). Play a Kensai (pure) in Bg2. Things will die. Fast.
You see the difference best if you play Kensai in Bg1 (in tutu or Bgt), and had previously played a fighter type. Difficult Fights (like vs the Demon at the end of TotSC) even for a party of 6, can be soloed with a Kensai. At least I had this impression.

Regarding TT. What happened? How did the spell behave?

 

[Murk]

Jasede always downplay Minsc but I have no idea why, he's the strongest character in the game and the second best fighter (I like Kagain's 20 con for tanking purposes), I used to ALWAYS use to minsc.

On minsc/dynaheir - if you want one without the other, take both, and let one die in combat, then just remove them from your party.

Voila.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Jasede always downplay Minsc but I have no idea why, he's the strongest character in the game and the second best fighter (I like Kagain's 20 con for tanking purposes), I used to ALWAYS use to minsc.

On minsc/dynaheir - if you want one without the other, take both, and let one die in combat, then just remove them from your party.

Voila.

Yes sure but this just doesn't feel right.

 

[Jasede]

Jasede always downplay Minsc but I have no idea why, he's the strongest character in the game and the second best fighter (I like Kagain's 20 con for tanking purposes), I used to ALWAYS use to minsc.

On minsc/dynaheir - if you want one without the other, take both, and let one die in combat, then just remove them from your party.

Voila.

He's indeed second-best, maybe even best if used right, that Minsc. I just don't like him.

 

[Gragt]

You just don't like hamsters.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Hehe, I had to go to bed it was quite late here in Oz at the time of my last post - wake to find the discussion still raging.

This is probably the single best thing about party based rpg's based on a PnP ruleset like DnD. The possibilities are almost endless and everyone has an opinion. Doesn't even have to be about stats, but peronalities like Jasede hating Minsc lol. It almost demands multiple playthroughs. Just wish I hadn't waited so long to try BG.

Looking more closely again at the NPC alignment and stats and you guys opinions, it really looks like most of the best NPC's are evil. How would Edwin go in a mostly good party? Will he eventually turn on us - or leave? My main is chaotic neutral so really she can go either way. What about Imoen in a mostly evil party? I know Ajantis wouldn't stand for an evil party - that damn do-gooder complains if I fart without saying pardon lol.

Actually, it may even be fun trying to keep everyone happy in a mixed party.

 

[Andhaira]

In BG1as long as your reputation doesn't go higher than 18 Edwin wont leave. In fact he even stays if your reputation goes to 20.

However Xzar and Montaron will eventually fight with Khalid and Jaheira (as they are Zhentarim and KHalid and Jaheira are harpers)

 

[Melcar]

If you really want t have some fun with party interactions take characters that hate each other. Opposite alignment is the easiest way, but other characters simple don't mix with one another. Have them kill one another every once in a while.

 

[Murk]

He's indeed second-best, maybe even best if used right, that Minsc. I just don't like him.

Ah yeah, Taste is a different matter. I don't mind his gibberish for the most part.

Yes sure but this just doesn't feel right.

How's that? You mean it feels to engine-glitchy? Eh, sometimes life-long comanions die and people fail their charges as guardians... 'sides, it would be true to canon -- just look at their situation in BG2..

 

[AlaCarcuss]

If you really want t have some fun with party interactions take characters that hate each other. Opposite alignment is the easiest way, but other characters simple don't mix with one another. Have them kill one another every once in a while.

Yeah, that sounds like it'd be fun. However, I'm playing on hard and with the BWP mods to XP and tactics etc. makes it even harder I believe. Hell, that bitch Silke in Beregost wiped out my whole party first time I fought her. Don't remember that happening when I tried it vanilla a few years ago.

So for my first playthrough I probably need a fairly balanced party without them trying to kill each other. I'm a relative noob at both BG and DnD rulesets despite having played a couple of DnD based games over the years. So I don't want to complicate things too much.

My original intention was just to have one really solid playthrough and move on to something else. I have a lot of games on my 'to-play' list. However, I didn't expect to be enjoying BG as much as I am and I really do want to try differnt parties and alignments so I can see myself spending quite a bit of time on the series now

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

I really liked this about BG: no matter how high your INT, no matter what- Edwin will /always/ be a better wizard than you

A wild mage can be better, especially with the Amulet of Power, which Edwin's cheese amulet prevents him from wearing. That extra casting speed plus the ability to (possibly) morph any 1st level spell slot (Nahal's Reckless Dweomer) into any spell you can cast is killer. That's a lotta wishes.

And then there are sorcerers, who stomp Edwin.

Weimar's Tactics mod came up in this thread. Never was a fan of that. It was too cheesy for me. To win wasn't about using tactics as much as out-cheesing the opposition. Not to mention, you can't really play a non-casting class and expect to survive. I prefer Sword Coast Stratagems with a tweak-pack if I'm looking for challenge. Or Ascension, but that doesn't work for BG1 or Shadows of Amn. Fair challenge that allows for more play diversity.

 

[Shannow]

It is true that you need equipment and/or spells to negate the disadvantage of not being able to use Shields, Armor, Helmets and gauntlets.

Again, any non-kensai can use those, too. And availability is really limited for most of BG1.

But the advantages you have are not insignificant. Btw Kensais also get steadily increasing speed factor. And they have Kai, to strike for maximum damage (2 rounds). Play a Kensai (pure) in Bg2. Things will die. Fast.

Of course they're not insignificant. Nobody said so. But they're not so much better as you make them out to be. Play any non-fucked-up char (pure) in BG2 and things will die fast. I soloed the dragon you can fight for pride with my barbarians, fighters and berserkers (and those only had normal xp since I wnt through the game with a party of six). My fighters always had something between 60% and 80% of the party kills. It is a combination of having the best stats and giving the best equipment.

You see the difference best if you play Kensai in Bg1 (in tutu or Bgt), and had previously played a fighter type. Difficult Fights (like vs the Demon at the end of TotSC) even for a party of 6, can be soloed with a Kensai. At least I had this impression.

And he still sucks in the first 1-3 levels (at least) compared to a berserker with scale mail + large shield.

Regarding TT. What happened? How did the spell behave?

Didn't double my hp and didn't improve the THAC0 the way it should have... Been at least a year since I played and I don't remember what mods I had installed. There might have been more issues with the spell that I can't remember, too. It just didn't transform my fighter/mage into the apostle of doom it should have I thought that might be a general known issue/feature. If it isn't *shrug*
Planning on a new playthrough with BWP. I already had the tactics version installed. Meeting 2 hobgoblin elites + 2 hobgoblin archers + a few kobolds in the very first area outside Candlekeep convinced me that the extended standard version might be more to my tastes...

[EDIT]: Spelling + cleared up some statements

 

[Andhaira]

Edwin is better than sorcerors. Sorcerors are limited in their spell picks; sure they can get good artillery but if they don't ge the mage duel spells adn melee protection spells they are fucked.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

- all NPCs in BG suck.
- play solo.

 

[Mesk]

Get Saerileth. She's the only party member you'll ever need.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

It is true that you need equipment and/or spells to negate the disadvantage of not being able to use Shields, Armor, Helmets and gauntlets.

Again, any non-kensai can use those, too. And availability is really limited for most of BG1.

But the advantages you have are not insignificant. Btw Kensais also get steadily increasing speed factor. And they have Kai, to strike for maximum damage (2 rounds). Play a Kensai (pure) in Bg2. Things will die. Fast.

Of course they're not insignificant. Nobody said so. But they're not so much better as you make them out to be. Play any non-fucked-up char (pure) in BG2 and things will die fast. I soloed the dragon you can fight for pride with my barbarians, fighters and berserkers (and those only had normal xp since I wnt through the game with a party of six). My fighters always had something between 60% and 80% of the party kills. It is a combination of having the best stats and giving the best equipment.

You see the difference best if you play Kensai in Bg1 (in tutu or Bgt), and had previously played a fighter type. Difficult Fights (like vs the Demon at the end of TotSC) even for a party of 6, can be soloed with a Kensai. At least I had this impression.

And he still sucks in the first 1-3 levels (at least) compared to a berserker with scale mail + large shield.

Regarding TT. What happened? How did the spell behave?

Didn't double my hp and didn't improve the THAC0 the way it should have... Been at least a year since I played and I don't remember what mods I had installed. There might have been more issues with the spell that I can't remember, too. It just didn't transform my fighter/mage into the apostle of doom it should have I thought that might be a general known issue/feature. If it isn't *shrug*
Planning on a new playthrough with BWP. I already had the tactics version installed. Meeting 2 hobgoblin elites + 2 hobgoblin archers + a few kobolds in the very first area outside Candlekeep convinced me that the extended standard version might be more to my tastes...

[EDIT]: Spelling + cleared up some statements

This is propably a glitch with your game, I had Haerdalis use TT often and it did work correctly.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Edwin is better than sorcerors. Sorcerors are limited in their spell picks; sure they can get good artillery but if they don't ge the mage duel spells adn melee protection spells they are fucked.

Sorcerers get enough spell picks in Bg2 to cover all important Spells. They get way more than they should actually get according to D&D.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

Get Saerileth. She's the only party member you'll ever need.

She's useless both as a tank(lol STR) and as a romance(lol 15-year-old girls) AND her portrait and voice are from the wrong fucking game.

Edwin is better than Sorcerers, but Sorcerers are better than Mages. Edwin's unremovable amulet gives him +1 spell slot at every level. The fact that he's a specialist mage(and in the best school you can specialize in too) gives him another +1.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Get Saerileth. She's the only party member you'll ever need.

She's useless both as a tank(lol STR) and as a romance(lol 15-year-old girls) AND her portrait and voice are from the wrong fucking game.

Edwin is better than Sorcerers, but Sorcerers are better than Mages. Edwin's unremovable amulet gives him +1 spell slot at every level. The fact that he's a specialist mage(and in the best school you can specialize in too) gives him another +1.

Without bonus spells a Mage gets 4 castings of a spell at a given level. Being a specialist you'll have 5. Having +1 spell per level from an amulet you'll have 6. Exactly the same number as a sorcerer gets. So how exactly does Edwin outperform a sorcerer then, who is additionaly able to adjust on the fly which spell to cast?

Edwin is the best Wizard in the game, because he has as many spells as a sorcerer and that's it.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

Whatever mate. Want to stick with ten spells forever, go ahead. I'd rather have an opportunity to cast something different now and then(not to mention be able to change spell repertoire according to the dungeon).

Casters are gay anyway.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Casters are gay? Lol.

We should really start a "Sorcerer vs Wizard, which is better and why?" -flamewar.
This is always funny.