Preview PC Gamer reveals first NWN 2 details

[RGE]

Everyone likes to complain about "FedEx" and "go kill X" but really what else is there?

Deep down quests end up being hearing, getting, deliver or kill something, there is nothing wrong with such quests besides they are so obvious, the lack of any depth to then is what makes the boring.

It's not a FedEx or assassination quest if the PC is given a quest where the goal can be accomplished either by fetching something or by killing someone. Then it's a "PC's choice" quest where the player is in charge of how to accomplish the goal. Mindblowing, huh? And just imagine what it might be like if there are even more alternatives, and if the different ways of completing the quest affect other things, such as other quests.

The plot of NWN2 appears to follow the standard D&D routine, which is to start out as a humble level 1 and become a demigod. Don't hate the playah, hate the game. Hate D&D. Hate Forgotten Realms. I also predict that sometime during the official NWN2 campaign the King of Shadows will leap out of the PC's shadow and proclaim that he never died, he just hid in shadows, and he's been hiding in the PC's shadow for a long time and now he really needs to go to the bathroom.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Why don't you like DnD? It's the father of all the good RPGs out there!
I remember the good ole PnP D&D days with some good friends, eating chips and drinking multicolored (and flavoured) sodas which we knew were almost toxic.

I also remember an interesting chapter. I was a mage, pretty weak and I wanted to end it! Yep, I wanted to took my own life so I could "restart" with another character (the Master allowed it) as I was tired to fire fireballs and fry the back of my own party.
I climbed to the roof of a building, jumped and...after some D20s, I wasn't able to die! Crippled, but not dead, I was staring at the ground almost senseless...the sky suddenly hit me with a bolt of lightning, ending my mysery. Sweet game.

 

[Azarkon]

We all know that Herve was interested only in channeling the money, not actually running the company, so that argument is pointless.

Very well, I will give a more pertinent example from Troika's Leon himself to what he would've done differently with Troika:

" ... I believe we would have had a business person pursuing contracts/running the business year round regardless of where we were in our production cycles, so we’d always have something to fall back on if there were any problems with a current project. I also might have looked into raising some independent capital, but that would have brought us into a whole other situation that I’m not sure we would have wanted to get involved in."

In other words, one of Troika's big mistakes was to not have a business person running the fiscal and contractual matters year round. That's a vital factor that contributed to the company's downfall, but had little to do with the quality of Troika's games. Obsidian, with two publisher contracts right off the bat, clearly has the advantage and business savvy here, even if it's only by virtue of Bio hand-me-downs.

That all depends on the definition of "good and popular".

I'll agree with that. I was not particularly impressed by KOTOR 2, so I'll judge Obsidian by NWN 2 instead.

 

[RGE]

Why don't you like DnD? It's the father of all the good RPGs out there!

It's because of the XP, the emphasis on combat and the rampant levelling. And Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms feels like the McDonalds of fantasy worlds. So to placate the taste of the masses we get the Diablo of PnP systems set in the McDonalds of gameworlds.

But a toolset is a toolset is a toolset.

 

[Atrokkus]

Hate D&D. Hate Forgotten Realms

This is idiocy. So, you must hate Torment then, because it's also D-n-fucking-D!
Forgotten Realms to blame, huh? Care to explain why? I took part in dozens of hugely-rewarding PnP parties set in FR, and I played Baldur's Gate2 which, being of course inferior to PnP games, is a GREAT example of what CRPGs should be like - have compelling story, rich dialogs, great NPCs, just as in Torment.
However, there are lots of dumbeddown, pathetic games set in DnD / FR so what?

It's not about the setting, it's about the GAME set in that setting.

Speaking of NWN2, I can't say for sure that it's going ot shine (singleplayer, i mean), but multiplayer will be solid, I'm sure. I know lots of NWN1 shards where roleplaying is encouraged, where you actually simulate the real PnP experience.
But since I don't have stable internet, I'm more interested in NWN2 singleplayer, and here too I'm quite confident in Obsidian.

 

[Drakron]

Because PS:T implementation of D&D rules was ... curious?

I left D&D with 3.5 comming out, I abandoned FR even before that because I could not stand the novel line creating the Realms events, expecialy when the writers could not even bother to maintain some consistence with the basic game rules.

 

[RGE]

Hate D&D. Hate Forgotten Realms

This is idiocy. So, you must hate Torment then, because it's also D-n-fucking-D!

Strictly speaking it's AD&D, which is even worse. But I like the Planescape setting, and since the AD&D rules were modified a lot, it wasn't so bad.

Forgotten Realms to blame, huh? Care to explain why? I took part in dozens of hugely-rewarding PnP parties set in FR, and I played Baldur's Gate2 which, being of course inferior to PnP games, is a GREAT example of what CRPGs should be like - have compelling story, rich dialogs, great NPCs, just as in Torment.
However, there are lots of dumbeddown, pathetic games set in DnD / FR so what?

It's not about the setting, it's about the GAME set in that setting.

Uh, it's so about the setting. The setting is like the taste of food - I'm entitled to like it or loathe it, and I loathe Forgotten Realms. I don't like that magic is integrated into almost everything, and I don't like the focus on good vs evil. And when a multiplayer game is designed for such a setting it becomes a struggle to try to get away from it, because the balance and design of classes will be affected by the setting they are designed for.

I didn't like Baldur's Gate much, and I couldn't stand playing the sequel. Not sure if it was because of AD&D, the Infinity Engine or the crappy multiplayer (I tried to play it with a friend who really liked that game). I ended up cursing everything, so we didn't continue. Maybe it's a good CRPG, but I'm not going to find out.

 

[Atrokkus]

the Infinity Engine or the crappy multiplayer (I tried to play it with a friend who really liked that game). I ended up cursing everything, so we didn't continue. Maybe it's a good CRPG, but I'm not going to find out.

Well, it's designed primarily for singleplayer, although I did some MP sessions and it was fun, although I did the game through in single-mode, of course.
WEll, then, since you didn't even finish it, this arguement is pointless. If not for BG2, I would have been pretty cold towards FR as well.

 

[bryce777]

Forgotten realms is totally lame.

Elminster is an utter homo, and there are about 50 characters who are basically godlike and unstoppable good guys.

Planescape is 100 times better and greyhawk nearly as much better.


A simple choice of kill/steal/talk does not make a quest something other than a fedex quest, and having a lame formula for each quest like that is just stupid and annoying.

In torment, for example, all the quests somehow tied into the backstory or else were not exactly as they seemed.

 

[LlamaGod]

Forgotten realms is totally lame.

Elminster is an utter homo, and there are about 50 characters who are basically godlike and unstoppable good guys.

Planescape is 100 times better and greyhawk nearly as much better.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

 

[Greatatlantic]

You know, I'm eternally grateful for the Wright brothers inventing flight and all. But that doesn't mean I want to use the same plane they did.[/allegory]

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

deixa quieto o que tá quieto

Sábias palavras!

A não ser que o que está quieto seja para mexer... :twisted:

 

[Atrokkus]

Forgotten realms is totally lame.

Elminster is an utter homo, and there are about 50 characters who are basically godlike and unstoppable good guys.

There are equally lot of evil characters, also quite unstoppable. In BG2 you play as one, actually, if you desire, or you think son of Bhaal is weak and not a match for guys like Blackstaff? I mean, yaeh, Baldur's Gate is not a part of official FR history, but who cares?

But of course, Planescape is a better setting, much more unusual. Frankly, if not for BG2, I wouldn't like FR much, no.

 

[Spazmo]

I mean, yaeh, Baldur's Gate is not a part of official FR history, but who cares?

Yeah it is. It's officially in FR continuity, and heck, the events in the BG saga are tame compared to some of the ridiculous shit in FR continuity. FR is basically WOTC's dump setting. If they feel like introducing a new thing but don't want to take a risk on a whole new campaign world, they'll shove it in FR. Ninjas and other vaguely oriental shit? Done! Mongols? Done! Arabian Nights? Done! It's also completely ridiculous in terms of how much magic is around. But in the end, the setting depends on how the DM runs it, and what's actually in the setting depends only on the DM. I personally like FR for a campaign setting because of a few characters who are interesting (not bs like Drizzt, mind you) and some locations (such as Waterdeep and Undermountain). Plus, the setting is fairly familiar to my group, so it's a good common reference point kind of deal. Everyone pretty much gets what's going on.

 

[Atrokkus]

Yeah it is. It's officially in FR continuity,

Hmm... well, Time of Troubles is in, but the whole story of the sons of Bhaal is not in, as far as I know. I read FR manuals and completes but found no trace of that...

If they feel like introducing a new thing but don't want to take a risk on a whole new campaign world, they'll shove it in FR. Ninjas and other vaguely oriental shit? Done! Mongols? Done! Arabian Nights? Done

Oh yes, that's true. Really lame, but oh well...

few characters who are interesting (not bs like Drizzt, mind you)

Care to name a few? Just interested. Probably Halaster is one, hmm?

 

[Sammael]

Yeah it is. It's officially in FR continuity,

Hmm... well, Time of Troubles is in, but the whole story of the sons of Bhaal is not in, as far as I know. I read FR manuals and completes but found no trace of that...

Unfortunately, BG stories were also published as novels, and all novels are considered canon. Plus, the recently-published Lost Empires of Faerûn mentions the Bhaalspawn.

 

[Spazmo]

Give it another twenty years and WOTC will announce some sort of Crisis on Infinite Faeruns deal to reset everything.

 

[Sarvis]

Give it another twenty years and WOTC will announce some sort of Crisis on Infinite Faeruns deal to reset everything.

Why wait that long?

Seriously, it seems like since WoTC took over every other novel series is reshaping Faerun somehow. Every novel has to have large scale wars with troop movements and everything, from the latest Drizzt series destroying everything north of Mithril Hall to the Phaerimm nearly destroying the last mainland elven city and releasing the Shadovar.

FR needs to get back to it's roots, with newb adventurers and small parties just trying to survive...

 

[LlamaGod]

You actually read that shit?

 

[Spazmo]

Why wait that long?

It took DC about 40-50 years before they got fed up enough to do their Crisis, I figure it'll be a similar time for FR. Marvel's started their continuity cleanup House of M 40-50 years later as well.

 

[Sarvis]

You actually read that shit?

Yes, but don't worry... I already know I'm a worse person than you because I like something you don't.

<b>Spazmo</b>

Read the rest of my post, they are basically resetting FR every few months.

I know it's not quite the same thing as the comics deal, but they've pretty much destroyed any consistency the setting used to have.

 

[kris]

I believe this shows very well why I began making settings myself.

 

[Atrokkus]

Unfortunately, BG stories were also published as novels, and all novels are considered canon. Plus, the recently-published Lost Empires of Faerûn mentions the Bhaalspawn.

Novels are not official WotC history. They are in no way canonic.

 

[protobob]

Quests:

Yeah, pretty much anykind of quest that can be done has been done. What I love to see in quests are interesting moral decisions. When a quest is "Go fetch that staff for me" I'm yawning. One quest that really stands out to me is the one in Bloodlines when you find out a thin-blood on the beach has been spilling secretes to a mortal. Do you have compassion and let him flee the city or do you off him? This kind of quest gives you an oppurtunity to define your character: Is your character a hard-line follower of Vampire Law or are you going to let it slide since he didn't know any better? My character decided to kill him but I felt bad about it. We need more games that make you feel bad about killing people.

This is why I think games that let you play an 'evil' dude like KOTOR are just off the mark. KOTOR Evil was all about being an asshole. If, say, they'd tried to implement some of the psychology of, say Anakin's fall or something like that it would be interesting. But the whole "I'm an evil asshole" thing is just boring.

Forgotten Realms & D&D:

I like D&D. I recently started playing PnP and it's a lot of fun. Forgotten Realms just isn't my cup of tea though. Granted my only exposure to it has been BG 1&2 and NWN. HoTU showed me that Undermountain is cool, but other than that meh. I like my settings to either be lower magic/more realistic or just plain wierd.

 

[Sarvis]

Forgotten Realms & D&D:

I like D&D. I recently started playing PnP and it's a lot of fun. Forgotten Realms just isn't my cup of tea though. Granted my only exposure to it has been BG 1&2 and NWN. HoTU showed me that Undermountain is cool, but other than that meh. I like my settings to either be lower magic/more realistic or just plain wierd.

HoTU was a pretty poor implementation of Undermountain I think... great game otherwise though.

I've never actually played a campaign in FR, so I dunno about that aspect really.. I just always enjoyed the novels. *shrug*