KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Grotesque]

looks good so far

 

[Shog-goth]

Does not matter when they got enough funds to keep working on it.

Well, it matters because it seems that there isn't a clear vision and, after all this time, we're still in the dark about a lot of mechanics and other fundamental aspects of the game, not to mention the badly inadequate communication from developer.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

not to mention the badly inadequate communication from developer.

How do you feel we could improve this? We put out regular development updates, we respond to every message on Twitter and Facebook along with most comments. we're active on the subreddit. We have a constant developer presence on our Discord. We have a development roadmap, which while new and still incomplete is constantly being updated. What more would you like to see?

 

[hello friend]

Codex is only place that matters bruh

 

[Latelistener]

What more would you like to see?

People here seems to be a bit salty regarding the change of the art direction. While I do not really care much about it, there is no explanation on why is that even happened and no one bothered explaining that. Originally the game was suppose to look different:

I think there is a flaw in the logic of some people from Kickstarter and Early Access: they think that they got money because of what they showed and not to make what they showed. While I understand that changes are unavoidable, they take their success for granted and start doing whatever they want (sometimes without any explanation) leaving backers puzzled. See the System Shock remake for example.

There is also very little definite info regarding characters, their stats, classes and progression. A fundamental thing we know so little of.

 

[Shog-goth]

What more would you like to see?

Latest development updates: a bunch of people, some artworks, more artworks. Backer builds are a joke, I think everyone expected real development builds and not tiny demos. Important questions dropped, like the reason for the art direction "betrayal". That's not communication, it's propaganda.

But don't worry, it's only me. Everything's alright.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Latest development updates: a bunch of people, some artworks, more artworks. Backer builds are a joke, I think everyone expected real development builds and not tiny demos. Important questions dropped, like the reason for the art direction "betrayal". That's not communication, it's propaganda.

But don't worry, it's only me. Everything's alright.

I'm attempting to get clarification on the change of art direction (will have to wait until Monday until I can speak with Julian and the art director). As for the Backer Builds - we're in pre-alpha. We're still making the content. It sounds like you have unrealistic expectations of what a development build is going to contain. It sounds as if you were expecting an "almost complete" pre-release beta. This is fine for studios who have been working on the game behind closed doors for years and only have to make a public reveal when it is close to completion. As a crowdfunded game, we don't have that luxury. The next update will be far more significant.

You are capable of making a decent point, I've seen it. But when you start throwing around words like "betrayal" and "propaganda", it makes it difficult to take you seriously.

 

[PanteraNera]

Well Shog-goth got some points I can only second.

Like he said everything that is shown so far is somewhere between prototype and "pre-alpha". That means everything might change, drastically. Not that I need to stress that, it gets regularly stressed enough at discord.
What that means might one ask, what is the matter with that?
Well easy, there is not a single feature that someone should be really excited about, as no feature is complete at this point or how Shog-goth puts it "there is no clear vision". Like the current TU-system. It was stated that it is only an test that made it into the release of Backer Build One. It might change back to what it was before (still a TU system but with the rule set of FiraXisCom).
Graphics are one of the most expensive parts of making a game. And the old ones, that were really good and had a very different vibe, got scrapped. So everything can happen regarding PP.
They might even do another art shift (which I think is very unlikely).

I got very quiet lately, not because I lost interest at PP, there is just no point in posting news and following development if everything might change.
(Also there is little interesting new stuff, no word about features we only know of from the fig campaign or the interview I did with Julian).

While I partly agree with Latelistener about the change of art direction (in that I do not care that much about it, as long as the game is good), there is one point I get more and more concerned about, it is the general tone of the game. While the original seemed to draw a very dire, grim setting, the new art direction at least to me is the opposite.

I am pretty sure that Disciples of Anu 2.0 might look something like this:

Spoiler

Maybe I am kidding, or slightly exaggerating with this one.

Well what is it, eight more months of development? We will see in eight months what PP will be like (maybe, if it does not get delayed again).
Or just two more months to Backer Build Three.

I think most people that are critical about PP have expected to much, especially regarding the Backer Builds (I did) and how serious to take the Fig pitch. But well, maybe I played to many early-access titles before, that had more regularly and beefier updates, talked about core mechanics in detail and delivered them. One might ask, why do we not know more about soldier classes, soldier stats, the inventory, the geoscape, base building, research, use and role of land/air vehicles and so on at this point?

 

[Shog-goth]

You are capable of making a decent point, I've seen it.

Thank you, sincerely.

But when you start throwing around words like "betrayal" and "propaganda", it makes it difficult to take you seriously.

I have nothing to add to what I (and PanteraNera) said in my previous post: only time will tell, but 8 months are not enough from a pre-semi-alpha to 1.0.

 

[PanteraNera]

New Geoscape - a glimpse of what is at the end of the road?​

So lets compare the new geoscape with the old (shown on Fig):

new geoscape

old geoscape

First of with the new geoscape we do not see in what state the world currently is, in the old one most parts look brownish, dry, wastelandish, again a dire and grim setting.
Also in the old one, the bluish lines around the landmasses marked the old state of the world, when PP plays, the poles melted and the sea level has risen. It is a small detail but the player could see the changes from the real world to this fictional world.

So what is the reason for this change?
Look no further I got the official answer right here:

UnstableVoltage 26.09.18
We had experimented using a very realistic looking globe. However, once you start to add the UI elements and POI icons, it becomes very messy and hard to see. We decided to go with the virtual globe as it’s much cleaner and easier to read with a lot on it - especially with the mist.

So we already got a streamlined controller-centric GUI, so handicapped people can as well enjoy PP. Now we get an streamlined easier to read geoscape
I wonder when the game mechanics get streamlined easier to understand and what the result will be.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Just as expected.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Poop

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Important questions dropped, like the reason for the art direction "betrayal".

After speaking with Julian: The main reason for the artwork shift is that as the story became more complete and fleshed out, the less the concept artists' original designs fit in with the narrative. Phoenix Point is a Sci-Fi game with some horror elements and Lovecraftian inspiration. The sort of John Carpenter/Clive Barker-esq bodily horror, flayed flesh concepts no longer fit the game's story. With that said, we still haven't yet shown everything in the game (and of course, we don't intend to), but I have personally seen some assets that are still quite gruesome and closer to the original concept art.

There is also very little definite info regarding characters, their stats, classes and progression. A fundamental thing we know so little of.

The character progression and skills are going to be a large part of the RPG side of the game. Because of this, it is something we absolutely wanted to nail. Julian has always had a broad framework for how he wanted the classes and progression to work, and a lot of time has been spent testing and fine-tuning how classes and skills will work mechanically. We recognise that many people are on the fence until they see this in action. After speaking with Julian today, he informs me that they're (Julian and a couple of the other designers) working on a few last minute modifications to a few details and we will be revealing how these systems work by the end of October.

So lets compare the new geoscape with the old (shown on Fig):

You're comparing a polished concept render (Fig), with a low-quality gif of an unfinished asset. The graphic I used for the gif of the new Geoscape is literally just the globe texture with day/night lighting. It doesn't have the Mist, Overlays or any of the UI elements visible.

So we already got a streamlined controller-centric GUI, so handicapped people can as well enjoy PP.

It isn't just the handicapped that use controllers. There are many people who play via a TV using a controller (or even play directly on their desktop with one). Of course, we want as many people to be able to enjoy our game as possible. We make no apologies for that.

only time will tell, but 8 months are not enough from a pre-semi-alpha to 1.0.

We still aim for June 2019. If we manage it, yes, it will be tight. There has also been a lot more content created than what is in the Backer Build. The reason it isn't in the Backer Build yet is that it's not all finished. You can't just drop partially implemented stuff into a build and expect it to work. There has also been a lot of time spent making internal tools and templates which help to make new assets and systems significantly more quickly and easier.

We ran into some bottlenecks in development earlier this year when we lost our main rigger. We had modellers putting out assets which needed to be rigged before they could be animated and put into the build. Some of our animators can rig, but our dedicated rigger was always going to be more efficient. We also had a shortage of programmers (good ones are hard to come by), and our graphics teams were putting out assets faster than our programmers could implement them. We have now hired several new programmers, with another starting this week, who will work through the backlog and speed up the development process. We also now have 2 Scrum Masters who are doing an amazing effort with organising the teams and their time to keep the project on track.

As I mentioned before, as a crowdfunded indie developer, we didn't have the option of working on the game behind closed doors for years and only giving a release date once it was close to completion and we could be confident about the date. Like most crowdfunded projects (of any medium), we had to give a "best guess" at delivery. It was never going to be accurate - especially when you're also building a new team and you can't predict how long it is going to take to find people with the correct skills.

These days, the lion's share of games are either delayed or released on time in an unacceptable state. While we'd prefer to be in neither camp, if it comes to the choice, we'd sooner delay and deliver a finished and polished game. We have the funds to see this through, one way or another.

 

[Shog-goth]

After speaking with Julian: The main reason for the artwork shift is that as the story became more complete and fleshed out, the less the concept artists' original designs fit in with the narrative.

Almost everyone agreed on the fact that you perfectly nailed the mood and art direction with the fig prototype, just because your backers aren't mainstream public - feeded and grown up with generic sci-fi tropes - and know well what they want from a game like this. If the narrative doesn't match with the original design so let's change the narrative, because this isn't a movie, an illustrated book or an adventure but a strategic/tactical videogame and atmosphere and gameplay come first. That's just a cheap excuse for aiming shift towards mass market and can't work here like on Facebook, I'm sorry.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

After speaking with Julian: The main reason for the artwork shift is that as the story became more complete and fleshed out, the less the concept artists' original designs fit in with the narrative.

Almost everyone agreed on the fact that you perfectly nailed the mood and art direction with the fig prototype, just because your backers aren't mainstream public - feeded and grown up with generic sci-fi tropes - and know well what they want from a game like this. If the narrative doesn't match with the original design so let's change the narrative, because this isn't a movie, an illustrated book or an adventure but a strategic/tactical videogame and atmosphere and gameplay come first. That's just a cheap excuse for aiming shift towards mass market and can't work here like on Facebook, I'm sorry.

So far we've only really shown 2 factions. The Phoenix Project, who a generally well equipped and New Jericho who are pretty much the same. That post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" look would far more suit the Disciples or independent havens. The story is also a very big part of Phoenix Point. That's why we hired two professional writers. It's why our Briefings and short stories get so much traffic, and so many people talking about that. You may not appreciate the importance of the story, but there are many who do.

The current look of the game may also be more mainstream - but again, as a business making a product, of course we want it to appeal to as many people as possible.

I'm sorry you didn't get the answer you were hoping for. At least you got an honest one.

 

[Shog-goth]

You may not appreciate the importance of the story, but there are many who do

I myself appreciate a good and fleshed out lore, but story can't be central for a strategy game; in any case I read everything published so far and there is nothing that really doesn't fit with original design.

The current look of the game may also be more mainstream - but again, as a business making a product, of course we want it to appeal to as many people as possible.

Right, but you asked crowdfunded support for a specific kind of vision. I think that, in case like this, there is a sort of moral obligation to, at least, try to remain true to the initial premises.

I'm sorry you didn't get the answer you were hoping for. At least you got an honest one.

Mine was a rhetorical question, I already knew the answer.

 

[Latelistener]

The character progression and skills are going to be a large part of the RPG side of the game. Because of this, it is something we absolutely wanted to nail. Julian has always had a broad framework for how he wanted the classes and progression to work, and a lot of time has been spent testing and fine-tuning how classes and skills will work mechanically. We recognise that many people are on the fence until they see this in action. After speaking with Julian today, he informs me that they're (Julian and a couple of the other designers) working on a few last minute modifications to a few details and we will be revealing how these systems work by the end of October.

I still have no idea why you even use classes though. Seems to be an outdated mechanic that heavily restricts players in their choices.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

you asked crowdfunded support for a specific kind of vision. I think that, in case like this, there is a sort of moral obligation to, at least, try to remain true to the initial premises.

This

 

[Grotesque]

why do we not know more about soldier classes, soldier stats, the inventory, the geoscape, base building, research, use and role of land/air vehicles and so on at this point?

Because the game will take 16 or 24 more months to be finished and bug free for release.

wonder when the game mechanics get streamlined easier to understand and what the result will be.

Of course, we want as many people to be able to enjoy our game as possible

I have a mentally handicapped cousin.
What should I tell him? Will he be able to play Phoenix Point unattended?

The sort of John Carpenter/Clive Barker-esq bodily horror, flayed flesh concepts no longer fit the game's story

Enter big titted Siren.
I did not read any lore novels but I wonder where in those stories was the info to make mandatory Siren's visual design for example.
Is there an autistic enough fan of the written lore to make a text analysis to deconstruct this Gollop's high chance bullshit of an explanation?

And if the lore stories dictate the art direction to be bland, uninspired and Crysis ripoffesque, then God forbid..

a polished concept render

What is a concept render and how was it made?

of course we want it to appeal to as many people as possible.

How many?
Because going this road, soon you will have a more diluted sh- brew on your hands than even exquisite homeopathy can't come up with.

 

[Alienman]

Big titted Siren is obviously the romance choice in the game.

 

[Grotesque]

Big titted Siren is obviously the romance choice in the game.

PP synopses:

The impossible love story between a Phoenix Point lowly private and a washed away Siren upon the background of humanity's last ditch effort to save itself from an ancient water loving virus.
Each disavowed by their faction, they battle insurmountable odds which will culminate in an cataclysmic event that will shook the foundations of reality itself.
This epic saga that started with a casual stroll on the beach and the glistening peckish firmness of a pair of alien breasts, will take the reader on a tumultuous journey and by the end, engulf him within a marvelous cathartic release.

 

[orcinator]

The main reason for the artwork shift is that as the story became more complete and fleshed out, the less the concept artists' original designs fit in with the narrative.

How many quips will the game have, per minute?

 

[Alienman]

Big titted Siren is obviously the romance choice in the game.

PP synopses:

The impossible love story between a Phoenix Point lowly private and a washed away Siren upon the background of humanity's last ditch effort to save itself from an ancient water loving virus.
Each disavowed by their faction, they battle insurmountable odds which will culminate in an cataclysmic event that will shook the foundations of reality itself.
This epic saga that started with a casual stroll on the beach and the glistening peckish firmness of a pair of alien breasts, will take the reader on a tumultuous journey and by the end, engulf him within a marvelous cathartic release.

I think we found a third writer UnstableVoltage

For briefing vol. xxx

 

[PanteraNera]

You're comparing a polished concept render (Fig), with a low-quality gif of an unfinished asset. The graphic I used for the gif of the new Geoscape is literally just the globe texture with day/night lighting. It doesn't have the Mist, Overlays or any of the UI elements visible.

Thanks for the reply to my RP Wochenschau-journalist post!

I am not sure if I misunderstand you or my english is that bad. Let me re-post the quote I made just to be clear:

UnstableVoltage 26.09.18
We had experimented using a very realistic looking globe. However, once you start to add the UI elements and POI icons, it becomes very messy and hard to see. We decided to go with the virtual globe as it’s much cleaner and easier to read with a lot on it - especially with the mist.

To me that sounds that you scrapped the "very realistic looking globe" (old polished concept render from Fig) and instead go for a "virtual globe" (unpolished pre-alpha gif you posted).
I have no problem with the quality of the current look, it looks ... virtual-ish ... as it is supposed to be (I guess, by calling it "virtual globe")
As I have not mentioned the Mist, nor the UI elements I am confused why you bring these up, maybe you can elaborate on that.
Also what do you mean with Overlays? The bluish lines that showed the coast-lines (and country borders) in the Fig render?

It isn't just the handicapped that use controllers. There are many people who play via a TV using a controller (or even play directly on their desktop with one). Of course, we want as many people to be able to enjoy our game as possible. We make no apologies for that.

Yeah basically the same you said before (Feb 28 2018):

Spoiler

It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K

It is just, that it adds up, around fig there was this Poll Gollop did, where he stated this:

The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction.

So instead of what you initially said what you want to do you went the other way "we want as many people to be able to enjoy our game as possible". And not even a compromise like doing two GUI's.

Next the whole redesign of New Jericho from Mad Max to XCOMish, which again seems to be more of the taste of the masses. And damn where you spot on, as you successful advertising-campaign on facebook showed (source, source). Not to mention that you got the money for doing this from your Fig campaign that showed something entirely else comparison of old / new New Jericho. Not only that, but a lot of the people on facebook did not know about the Fig campaign at all, nor what was shown there. Also there were several posts that made clear that a lot of these guys thought that the advertising-line "by the creator of the original X-Com" meant that Julian Gollop created Firaxis's XCOM 1 & 2.

Than in June 2018 we had the announcement that Snapshot works together with Microsoft so Phoenix Point will be available on X-Box. Good that they were working on a controller-centric GUI since at least February 2018.

Than there was this screenshot of Synedrion 2.0 which also looks entirely different to what was show on Fig, as well as the ongoing redesign of the aliens, as an exempale the Siren.

And now a new Geoscape, a "virtual globe" because, you know its "easier to read"(TM), that is what the masses want, but I am pretty sure not what people like Shog-goth gave their money for.

Don't take me wrong, I do know that your doing very very well financial wise with the changes you did. And I am pretty sure, that if Snapshot sees more sales in an XCOM style AP system than the current TU-hybrid (that is a test) that it will change that mechanic in an heartbeat. You could say that the financial success proves you right. We will see in the end. But better be successful, because I got the feeling that if some people, that might not like the changes between when they crowdfunded this game and what it is now, will voice their anger on the next crowdfunding Snapshot will do. Or are even smarter, ask questions like "So the concept you show on this new Fig project, are they just placeholder and might totally change to something entirely else?". I am curious what you would answer to that.

 

[Shog-goth]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". When they realized that PP might have been of interest for M$ and NuXCOMers, and therefore gain potential "big money", they wouldn't think twice and give up the original vision and promises made to backers. Unfortunately this kind of excuses work only in certain circumstances, but here the king is naked.