Game News Pillars of Eternity available for pre-order, gets new trailer

[Roguey]

Sure. It just copies its "balanced" systems.

Balance isn't a MOBA-specific thing.

I bet you still haven't played this game yet.

Of course not, it's not out yet. I'm done with watching sausage-making.

RTS/MOBA games play pretty much alike, yet i can't reacall any of them having a pause option.

Shit design is shit.

So? PoE isn't trying to be a RTS or MOBA. It is trying to be like the IE games, where issuing orders while paused was a thing you were expected to do.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

From what I understood, PE wanted to minimize filler combat and focus on the memorable battles from BG2 and other IE games. The logical consequence was pause-athon gameplay. That's what you get if you want mainly tactically challenging encounters in a RTwP game... It always has been one of the main arguments for TB. Either TB for a truly challenging and tactical experience or a mix of filler combat and challenging encounters. Which is what I'd expect PE to go for. Though atm it seems like the mix isn't optimal and combat has a few other issues...?

Except that the game is not tactically challenging. At the moment anyway. Combat basically boils down to piling on DPS as fast as possible and healing your tank. There is almost no tactical decision making to be made after the combat opening because in combat movement is either restricted or punished, which is a load of horse shit and removes half of the tactical decision making that the IE games had. Combat then boils down to queueing up your per encounter abilities until you're out of them and then auto attacking away at the end. It's pretty terrible at the moment. Not to mention that combat is pretty much always over within about 12 seconds.

That's because you only ever fight 3-4 beetles.

 

[Blaine]

It's a good thing Roguey's here to defend PoE against all the haters, despite not having demoed the combat at all, unlike most everyone else.

So? PoE isn't trying to be a RTS or MOBA. It is trying to be like the IE games, where issuing orders while paused was a thing you were expected to do.

I've begun to realize that trash fights in earlier IE games actually helped obfuscate one of the main weakness of RtWP, which, as I mentioned earlier, is the large proportion of time spent issuing orders with the game paused. Exceptionally difficult, deadly battles were relatively rare, so you could actually watch the action unfold from time to time without wearing the spacebar down to a nub. PoE aims to eliminate trash fights, so....

I've got this figured out: The "pillars" referred to in the game's title are spacebars, while "eternity" hints at the amount of time you'll spend with the game paused.

There are also other methods of simultaneous action resolution other than RTwP, by the way.

 

[Infinitron]

It's a good thing Roguey's here to defend PoE against all the haters, despite not even having demoed the combat at all, unlike most everyone else.

So? PoE isn't trying to be a RTS or MOBA. It is trying to be like the IE games, where issuing orders while paused was a thing you were expected to do.

I've begun to realize that trash fights actually helped obfuscate one of the main weakness of RtWP, which, as I mentioned earlier, is the large proportion of time spent issuing orders with the game paused. Exceptionally difficult, deadly battles were relatively rare, so you could actually watch the action unfold from time to time without wearing the spacebar down to a nub. PoE aims to eliminate trash fights, so....

I've got this figured out: The "pillars" referred to in the game's title are spacebars, while "eternity" hints at the amount of time you'll spend with the game paused.

There are also other methods of simultaneous action resolution other than RTwP, by the way.

PoE does not aim to eliminate trash fights. That's Torment. Sawyer has in fact spoken in favor of having the occasional curb stomp battle (this was back in 2012, during the KS campaign).

It probably does want those trash fights to be a bit more thoughtful than BG1's randomly spawned xvart hordes, but that's not a high bar to clear.

 

[Blaine]

Yes, I'm sorry, trash fights won't be COMPLETELY eliminated, but they will be drastically reduced... which is good, other than causing PwRT syndrome, because their only redeeming quality aside from masking RTwP's weaknesses was a bit of extra XP and loot on the side.

 

[aleph]

I've begun to realize that trash fights in earlier IE games actually helped obfuscate one of the main weakness of RtWP, which, as I mentioned earlier, is the large proportion of time spent issuing orders with the game paused. Exceptionally difficult, deadly battles were relatively rare, so you could actually watch the action unfold from time to time without wearing the spacebar down to a nub. PoE aims to eliminate trash fights, so....

I've got this figured out: The "pillars" referred to in the game's title are spacebars, while "eternity" hints at the amount of time you'll spend with the game paused.

The amount of hate the codex directs at RtWP was always kinda silly, but this is completely ridiculous. So, the "weakness" of RtWP is the fact that you actually need to pause in harder battles? Seriously, do you also bash turn-base combat because in some battles the player actually has to spend so time planning their actions before hitting end turn?

 

[Wizfall]

I don't know about the game but i like the trailer a lot, it looks gorgeous.
Can't see how anyone enjoying the IE games can dislike it, except maybe the music (and too many dragons).

 

[Blaine]

Seriously, do you also bash turn-base combat because in some battles the player actually has to spend so time planning their actions before hitting end turn?

I might, but I can't find the time, what with constantly bashing the spacebar while playing the PoE beta.

RTwP is RTwP, yeah. It is what it is. If you must know, what really got a bee in my bonnet this year was that many people defended the inclusion of RTwP on the basis that PoE is an IE successor; IE games used RTwP, therefore PoE should, too. That's all well and good, except that many of those same people also give Josh Sawyer carte blanche to conduct his own personal balancing experiments and to change whatever he likes to "fix what they got wrong" the first time around.

More importantly though, the combat is pretty crap right now in the beta.

 

[Elhoim]

For some reason is 10 dollars cheaper on GOG:

http://af.gog.com/game/pillars_of_eternity_hero_edition?as=1649904300

 

[Shannow]

Spoiler

From what I understood, PE wanted to minimize filler combat and focus on the memorable battles from BG2 and other IE games. The logical consequence was pause-athon gameplay. That's what you get if you want mainly tactically challenging encounters in a RTwP game... It always has been one of the main arguments for TB. Either TB for a truly challenging and tactical experience or a mix of filler combat and challenging encounters. Which is what I'd expect PE to go for. Though atm it seems like the mix isn't optimal and combat has a few other issues...?

Except that the game is not tactically challenging. At the moment anyway. Combat basically boils down to piling on DPS as fast as possible and healing your tank. There is almost no tactical decision making to be made after the combat opening because in combat movement is either restricted or punished, which is a load of horse shit and removes half of the tactical decision making that the IE games had. Combat then boils down to queueing up your per encounter abilities until you're out of them and then auto attacking away at the end. It's pretty terrible at the moment. Not to mention that combat is pretty much always over within about 12 seconds.

Well, I was talking about what I thought PE was aiming for, not what it has achieved
From what I'd gathered some of the beta-encounters were/are quite challenging. And if the enemy kills you in under 12 seconds that doesn't mean it's not challenging

Spoiler

It's a good thing Roguey's here to defend PoE against all the haters, despite not even having demoed the combat at all, unlike most everyone else.

So? PoE isn't trying to be a RTS or MOBA. It is trying to be like the IE games, where issuing orders while paused was a thing you were expected to do.

I've begun to realize that trash fights actually helped obfuscate one of the main weakness of RtWP, which, as I mentioned earlier, is the large proportion of time spent issuing orders with the game paused. Exceptionally difficult, deadly battles were relatively rare, so you could actually watch the action unfold from time to time without wearing the spacebar down to a nub. PoE aims to eliminate trash fights, so....

I've got this figured out: The "pillars" referred to in the game's title are spacebars, while "eternity" hints at the amount of time you'll spend with the game paused.

There are also other methods of simultaneous action resolution other than RTwP, by the way.

PoE does not aim to eliminate trash fights. That's Torment. Sawyer has in fact spoken in favor of having the occasional curb stomp battle (this was back in 2012, during the KS campaign).

It probably does want those trash fights to be a bit more thoughtful than BG1's randomly spawned xvart hordes, but that's not a high bar to clear.

Do you have a source for this? Since many here are under the impression that filler combat was to be minimized (quantity), not just improved compared to BG1 (quality).

The amount of hate the codex directs at RtWP was always kinda silly, but this is completely ridiculous. So, the "weakness" of RtWP is the fact that you actually need to pause in harder battles? Seriously, do you also bash turn-base combat because in some battles the player actually has to spend so time planning their actions before hitting end turn?

RTwP has two "advantages" over TB:
1. Simultaneous actions. (Which really isn't much of a deal. In fact, it's possible in TB-like gameplay. (No, I'm not interested in a discussion about TB, phase based, etc.) Also, I prefer actions in turns. )
2. A better "flow". (Which mainly seems to be an issue for ADD-kiddies, but whatever...)
TB on the other hand (if it is well implemented) has the better tactical gameplay. Which is a true advantage.
That "hate" you perceive is simply because people with taste prefer the advantages TB brings. And in this special case, it seems like the few positives RTwP has are also being removed...
If you make your RTwP game so involved that you're constantly pausing, you'd probably have had a better "flow" with a TB game. Thus negating 2. And 1. seems to be at least hurt by the engagement stuff *shrug*

 

[Infinitron]

Do you have a source for this? Since many here are under the impression that filler combat was to be minimized (quantity), not just improved compared to BG1 (quality).

I never said anything about quantity. I just said he wasn't against curb stomp battles against weaker enemies, as a general rule.

The relative quantity of different sorts of fights has more to do with the overall structure of the game than anything else (lots of wilderness areas with random wildlife vs more quest hubby design)

 

[Sensuki]

From what I'd gathered some of the beta-encounters were/are quite challenging. And if the enemy kills you in under 12 seconds that doesn't mean it's not challenging

Some of the enemies have some seriously imbalanced damage. Elder Lions attack every 2.5 seconds and hit for 50-70 damage against 12 DT. The BB Fighter has like I dunno, 144 Endurance or something at Level 5, so he can only take about three of those attacks before he goes down. This means that the only strategy is to pile priest heal after priest heal wearing no or lightest armor on the priest while everyone focuses the Elder Lion (and on Hard there's usually 3-5 lions in a group with 1-2 Elder Lions). You could try casting a disable or a debuff, but that usually takes 3 seconds to do and has a chance of not doing much (grazing), so it's always better to just dump another Noxious Burst at the edge of the Fighter's selection circle.

Once you've figured out the one strategy that wins, the fight isn't hard but it's just boring and requires a lot of micropausing.

I like real-time and RTwP gameplay. Just played some DotA 2 with Zed tonight actually. But this gameplay stinks.

 

[Roguey]

It's a good thing Roguey's here to defend PoE against all the haters, despite not having demoed the combat at all, unlike most everyone else.

I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics. What PoE plays like now obviously won't be what it'll play like in four months.

 

[Blaine]

I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics. What PoE plays like now obviously won't be what it'll play like in four months.

More seriously, when a game has been in development for over two years, has been in beta (which is generally a feature-complete stage) for several months, and when release is another several months down the line, expecting significant and game-changing alterations to stuff like combat has proven time and again to be the stuff delusions are made of.

 

[Infinitron]

significant and game-changing alterations to stuff like combat

In real-time combat, something as simple as say, applying a 30% reduction to all character speeds can have "significant" and "game-changing" effects.

The combat will be fine.

 

[Blaine]

In real-time combat, something as simple as say, applying a 30% reduction to all character speeds can have "significant" and "game-changing" effects.

Yes, I'm sure everything will be fixed and it'll be really great.

The combat will be fine.

Nice edit. Keep on saying that, and it'll come true.

The trouble with claiming that the combat will magically improve is that the fans seem to think it's fine; for their part, Obsidian don't appear to have admitted that the combat as-is is particularly problematic. I'm aware from my search for any ongoing dialogue about PoE's combat that you frequent the Obsidian forums. Here you are swooping in on the second post of a thread started by someone who doesn't like RTwP:

...so since you're likely to have seen it if it exists, if I'm mistaken and Obsidian have communicated their thoughts on combat with the public, then I'd like to see them. If there's any sort of fan furor, I'd like to see that, too.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, I'm sure everything will be fixed and it'll be really great.

Yep. One of my long-standing theories(tm) is that while real-time combat is harder to get to an "acceptable" feel on the first try compared to turn-based (which becomes a problem in troubled projects like NWN2), it's also much easier to tune than turn-based. In turn-based, due to the discretized nature of the mechanics, tuning is much more dangerous. Give the characters a few more action points in a turn-based game, and suddenly the way all the encounters in your game play out becomes completely different.

The trouble with claiming that the combat will magically improve is that the fans seem to think it's fine; for their part, Obsidian don't appear to have admitted that the combat as-is is particularly problematic.

Yeah, I don't really expect Brandon Adler to come out and say "THE GAME IS GARBAGE, BUT WE'LL FIX IT".

 

[Blaine]

In other words, you believe for no substantial reason other than blind faith that the cadence and "feel" of PoE's combat will dramatically improve, despite the total lack of feedback from Obsidian and the near-total absence of fan complaints or discussion of the matter, other than here at the Codex and a few other easily-overlooked pockets.

That's certainly your choice. I'll rely on what's actually implemented in the beta—which we're now several months into with very little progress shown on the "fix combat" front—until some scrap of evidence other than conjecture suggests combat will improve. The good news is that even if the combat turns out to be crap (in a combat-focused game no less), like some of its predecessors it will still be a very good game if the dialogue, characterization, exploration and so on are suitably up to par.

 

[Infinitron]

the near-total absence of fan complaints or discussion of the matter

Hah, there's actually more complaining about the combat on Obsidian's own forums than there is here (where the community has mostly delegated that task to Sensuki and moved on to playing other games).

 

[Roguey]

More seriously, when a game has been in development for over two years, has been in beta (which is generally a feature-complete stage) for several months, and when release is another several months down the line, expecting significant and game-changing alterations to stuff like combat has proven time and again to be the stuff delusions are made of.

Wasteland 2 went through huge changes from its "gold master" beta to shipped release. From a "I only died once and it was because someone threw a grenade at me" affair to "challenging enough" (for some people).

 

[Tigranes]

What exactly is wrong with pausing a lot in RTwP? I never understood this. RTwP is meant to be paused. If you put on party AI and just occasionally do things in real time in BG2, NWN or DAO, isn't that the most boring 'screensaver' way to play? It's not like this is Diablo. If you want TB, sure, TB is great. But if you ARE playing a rtwp game, you WANT to have difficult battles pausing like a maniac.

 

[Achiman]

What exactly is wrong with pausing a lot in RTwP? I never understood this. RTwP is meant to be paused. If you put on party AI and just occasionally do things in real time in BG2, NWN or DAO, isn't that the most boring 'screensaver' way to play? It's not like this is Diablo. If you want TB, sure, TB is great. But if you ARE playing a rtwp game, you WANT to have difficult battles pausing like a maniac.

This. I played ALOT of baldurs gate etc, running around with my rogue backstabbing, going back into stealth etc. Turn based is fine, but if you want to play your character NOT a party of characters RTWP caters more to this, especially if the scripting is 1/2 decent.

 

[Frusciante]

From what I understood, PE wanted to minimize filler combat and focus on the memorable battles from BG2 and other IE games. The logical consequence was pause-athon gameplay. That's what you get if you want mainly tactically challenging encounters in a RTwP game... It always has been one of the main arguments for TB. Either TB for a truly challenging and tactical experience or a mix of filler combat and challenging encounters. Which is what I'd expect PE to go for. Though atm it seems like the mix isn't optimal and combat has a few other issues...?

Except that the game is not tactically challenging.

No game is challenging when you analyze and play it as much as you do. Especially considering this is only a very small part of the game so you're playing the same encounters over and over again.

 

[Gentle Player]

What exactly is wrong with pausing a lot in RTwP? I never understood this. RTwP is meant to be paused. If you put on party AI and just occasionally do things in real time in BG2, NWN or DAO, isn't that the most boring 'screensaver' way to play? It's not like this is Diablo. If you want TB, sure, TB is great. But if you ARE playing a rtwp game, you WANT to have difficult battles pausing like a maniac.

See:

If you make your RTwP game so involved that you're constantly pausing, you'd probably have had a better "flow" with a TB game.

I don't want to comment further as I've not played PoE beta, but if it's the case that there is constant pausing, even in regular battles, in order to micromanage each and every one of your unit's abilities, then why not just make it TB?

In IE games there wasn't constant pausing. In regular fights it was enough to just haste your fighters and let them go to work, which isn't exactly compelling gameplay either, but that's neither here nor there. In the more challenging fights, there was pausing to manage spell usage, while melee could be left alone unless they needed to be re-positioned or ordered to attack another target. So there was a good balance there. My understanding of PoE based on complaints (do correct me if I'm wrong) is that each class, even fighter, has active abilities that are required even in normal fights. And so, if one has to pause constantly, one really should be asking why the game isn't just TB.

 

[FeelTheRads]

then why not just make it TB?

Choose between:

- it's not realistic
- it's slow
- it's for nerds
- it's outdated
-
-
-

Multiple choices allowed.