Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Apexeon]

Nah they haven't. Kuldahar is an awesome area.

Its more then awesome I have it tattooed somewhere on my body.

 

[Merlkir]

Jesus, mark this as NSFW next time!

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Since I'm not allowed to show screenshots or vids of game content that isn't available in the beta without cheats, but it's ok for people to view it themselves, here's a little update to the mod that has two console commands.

GorgeRestore - use it only when in Stormwall Gorge. It will remove the flood in the Stormwall Gorge and you'll be able to go down there and explore, there's some stuff there and some monsters (kind of like black lions... not sure what difficulty you have to be on for them to spawn, I play on Hard). And to the west there's a cave that you can go in.
TrollRestore - once you're in the cave, clear out all the trash, get all the loot (there's a sarcophagus and a few other containers), rest and type in TrollRestore - it will spawn the Troll boss encounter. The troll looks... original... It's not green, it's pink.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62420848/IEmodTemp.zip

 

[tuluse]

tuluse, here is a higher level encounter video finally. Not the one you wanted because I get less than 20 FPS in that battle - no thankyou.

I am going to re-do this fight several times and record the different strategies you can apply to the encounter just with this party.

Looks pretty good. You were keeping of things in mind and making tactical decisions. Seems like the boss spider could use a bit of an HP or DR buff though, but that's more fine tuning.

Also, obviously you exploit a bit of metaknowledge, sending in the rogue to jump back like you do, but maybe that's expected on hard.

 

[Branm]

Dunno if you should be able to one shot a boss ...especially if this is really later in the game. That ranged character of yours look horribly OP though :D

 

[aeonsim]

tuluse, here is a higher level encounter video finally. Not the one you wanted because I get less than 20 FPS in that battle - no thankyou.



I am going to re-do this fight several times and record the different strategies you can apply to the encounter just with this party.

Man there are hardly any Spiders on Hard, PoD has another 10+ mixed spiders (spiderlings, Ivory spinners etc).
Also that fight is one of the perfect ones for the Wizards Wall of Fire, which is my fav tactic for clearing that room. Hardest part in that fight is occasionally Nridek will manage to charm/dominate one of the party...

How do you find the top level of that dungeon on PoD, the two rooms with the Shades, Spectors and Cean Gŵla are the hardest fights in the Beta (the bottom left room has 2x Cean Gŵla, 4+ Specters and several Shades), due to the combination of stunning ranged attacks from the Spectors and high damage and debuffs from the Cean Gŵla.

 

[prodigydancer]

Also, obviously you exploit a bit of metaknowledge, sending in the rogue to jump back like you do, but maybe that's expected on hard.

The maneuver is tactically sound on its own. It's the AI's weakness that makes it look like an exploit. Melee enemies should switch to the closest reachable target when the path to their current target is blocked. Instead they apparently get confused (and not just momentarily which would make sense).

In fact targeting may be as complex as you can afford but unreachable targets must always stay at the end of the aggro list in any case.

 

[tuluse]

Also, obviously you exploit a bit of metaknowledge, sending in the rogue to jump back like you do, but maybe that's expected on hard.

The maneuver is tactically sound on its own. It's the AI's weakness that makes it look like an exploit. Melee enemies should switch to the closest reachable target when the path to their current target is blocked. Instead they apparently get confused (and not just momentarily which would make sense).

In fact targeting may be as complex as you can afford but unreachable targets must always stay at the end of the aggro list in any case.

Yeah, but most people aren't going to bother scouting every single room with a rogue before jumping back behind a wall of defenders.

It's not super exploitative, but it's clearly something you're only going to do with harder encounters when you expect them.

 

[Sensuki]

Man there are hardly any Spiders on Hard, PoD has another 10+ mixed spiders (spiderlings, Ivory spinners etc).
Also that fight is one of the perfect ones for the Wizards Wall of Fire, which is my fav tactic for clearing that room. Hardest part in that fight is occasionally Nridek will manage to charm/dominate one of the party...

How do you find the top level of that dungeon on PoD, the two rooms with the Shades, Spectors and Cean Gŵla are the hardest fights in the Beta (the bottom left room has 2x Cean Gŵla, 4+ Specters and several Shades), due to the combination of stunning ranged attacks from the Spectors and high damage and debuffs from the Cean Gŵla.

That one(the spectres) is a tougher and more fun fight - haven't played it on PotD because like I said - no testing on PotD is applicable to the base game, really. I have already beaten it with this save, so I'm just showing off this one. Wall of Flame sucks for this encounter on Hard because it's currently bugged. It only hits the units that were present in the AoE when you cast it, it will easily kill them and then yeah anyone else can just walk straight through it without taking damage.

 

[Sensuki]

Looks pretty good. You were keeping of things in mind and making tactical decisions. Seems like the boss spider could use a bit of an HP or DR buff though, but that's more fine tuning.

Also, obviously you exploit a bit of metaknowledge, sending in the rogue to jump back like you do, but maybe that's expected on hard.

There's more than one way to do it, I'll do another one tonight. Currently that fight suffers from a few bugs - Fog of War glitches, for instance - where the player has a larger FOV than the enemies do and that enemies simply go back after they can't see you, which shouldn't be the case.

 

[Sensuki]

Also can someone spam Adam Brennecke's twitter about a new BB ? Thanks

Where's that Russian guy when you need him.

 

[aeonsim]

Man there are hardly any Spiders on Hard, PoD has another 10+ mixed spiders (spiderlings, Ivory spinners etc).
Also that fight is one of the perfect ones for the Wizards Wall of Fire, which is my fav tactic for clearing that room. Hardest part in that fight is occasionally Nridek will manage to charm/dominate one of the party...

How do you find the top level of that dungeon on PoD, the two rooms with the Shades, Spectors and Cean Gŵla are the hardest fights in the Beta (the bottom left room has 2x Cean Gŵla, 4+ Specters and several Shades), due to the combination of stunning ranged attacks from the Spectors and high damage and debuffs from the Cean Gŵla.

That one(the spectres) is a tougher and more fun fight - haven't played it on PotD because like I said - no testing on PotD is applicable to the base game, really. I have already beaten it with this save, so I'm just showing off this one. Wall of Flame sucks for this encounter on Hard because it's currently bugged. It only hits the units that were present in the AoE when you cast it, it will easily kill them and then yeah anyone else can just walk straight through it without taking damage.

I've had success with wall of flame in that encounter a couple of times though it may have been the previous backer beta. There it was simply send a scout in talk to him and then run back and cast wall of flame make sure every one is after you by hitting them with interdiction and then watch 15+ spiders crisp them selves on the nice open fire , the big two didn't always come forward far enough, but with no support they die nice and quickly once you charge up to them.

The Spectre fight is very very hard on PoD if you try to pull the enemies (which you need to ~6 Spectres, 4 Shades and 2 Cean Gŵla is suicide) you usually manage to get a shade, + Spectres and a Cean Gŵla and it's still a tough fight, the Cean Gŵla has the highest DPS but the Spectres have to be eliminated first or they'll stun lock your party one after another while the Shade and Cean Gŵla kill them.

You really should have a go on PoD after all it's fine for tracking down most of the bugs except the balance ones, and it is a nice challenge!

 

[CyberWhale]

Source: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70...owdfunding-on-kickstarter/page-8#entry1578000



You can, but it won't be as large as PoE.

Yeah, that too.

Regarding the price, why do people even argue about it? Just because it is a 2D game? Fucking retards! It has more content, more complex gameplay than AAA games, but just because it is not 3D, should they sell it for 25 dollars? I think 40 dollars is a reasonable pricetag for it.

IMO all digital releases should be capped at 20 dorraru.
Large publishers are simply abusing the fact that some people are willing to pay $60 for a game no matter it being a bunch of digital files on Steam or something burned on a disc and packaged in a box.

 

[aeonsim]

And it may be a while before we see another BB, guess they must be getting close to going gold if they've not already. They're running out of time...

@adam_brennecke Any news on another Backer Beta? Was interesting to see the PAX stream with what appear to be some decent changes...

1. Adam Brennecke ‏@adam_brennecke 1m1 minute ago
   @eonsim no news right now. We have a lot of stuff on our plates at the moment, and will try to get another one out once things calm down.

 

[aeonsim]

Source: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70...owdfunding-on-kickstarter/page-8#entry1578000



You can, but it won't be as large as PoE.

Yeah, that too.

Regarding the price, why do people even argue about it? Just because it is a 2D game? Fucking retards! It has more content, more complex gameplay than AAA games, but just because it is not 3D, should they sell it for 25 dollars? I think 40 dollars is a reasonable pricetag for it.

IMO all digital releases should be capped at 20 dorraru.
Large publishers are simply abusing the fact that some people are willing to pay $60 for a game no matter it being a bunch of digital files on Steam or something burned on a disc and packaged in a box.

Why 20? The cost of the DVD's + DVD case and the modern excuse for a manual is only going to cost the company $2-3 & maybe another $1-2 for shipping so to maintain the same profit margin your'd be looking at a $55 game rather than a $60 game...

While I wouldn't be surprised if there were some additional costs with steam that probably make up the difference. Now if your arguing that with out a publisher (indie/direct from studio) the game should be $20 that's a bit of a better argument but most games don't sell that low so your'd risk reducing the perceived value of your product (as a major studio) if you were to sell at 1/3rd of the standard price for a new release.

 

[CyberWhale]

Why 20? The cost of the DVD's + DVD case and the modern excuse for a manual is only going to cost the company $2-3 & maybe another $1-2 for shipping so to maintain the same profit margin your'd be looking at a $55 game rather than a $60 game...

While I wouldn't be surprised if there were some additional costs with steam that probably make up the difference. Now if your arguing that with out a publisher (indie/direct from studio) the game should be $20 that's a bit of a better argument but most games don't sell that low so your'd risk reducing the perceived value of your product (as a major studio) if you were to sell at 1/3rd of the standard price for a new release.

While it is definitely true that costs for retail production are now cheaper than ever before, you still have to take into the account all accompanied cost like:

• shipping the package across the world
• storage in a warehouse
• product placement on shelves
• monthly paychecks for employees working in all/most of the above

I'm not 100% sure that every information on the internet can be trusted, but according to many split between publishers and Steam is 70:30 which is a lot more than the pathetic 25:75 that they get when releasing the game in a physical form.

P.S. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that developers/publishers shouldn't have the right to ask for whatever price they are asking for - I'm just saying that I personally am not willing to pay a lot more than those already mentioned 20 bucks.

 

[aeonsim]

Why 20? The cost of the DVD's + DVD case and the modern excuse for a manual is only going to cost the company $2-3 & maybe another $1-2 for shipping so to maintain the same profit margin your'd be looking at a $55 game rather than a $60 game...

While I wouldn't be surprised if there were some additional costs with steam that probably make up the difference. Now if your arguing that with out a publisher (indie/direct from studio) the game should be $20 that's a bit of a better argument but most games don't sell that low so your'd risk reducing the perceived value of your product (as a major studio) if you were to sell at 1/3rd of the standard price for a new release.

While it is definitely true that costs for retail production are now cheaper than ever before, you still have to take into the account all accompanied cost like:

• shipping the package across the world
• storage in a warehouse
• product placement on shelves
• monthly paychecks for employees working in all/most of the above

I'm not 100% sure that every information on the internet can be trusted, but according to many split between publishers and Steam is 70:30 which is a lot than the pathetic 25:75 that they get when releasing the game in a physical form.

P.S. don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that developers/publishers shouldn't have the right to ask for whatever price they are asking for - I'm just saying that I personally am not willing to pay a lot more than those already mentioned 20 bucks.

Fair enough and with steam games that pretty much means you should be able to buy many games at that price point ~6-12months after they were released...

Personally the higher prices are fine for me as the value for money (money/time) compared to a movie or BluRay/DVD is much higher.

 

[Infinitron]

You're not paying for manufacturing and distribution costs, silly

It's a niche product. At least they don't charge Matrix Games/Slitherine prices.

 

[CyberWhale]

You're not paying for manufacturing and distribution costs, silly

The end customer is always paying for everything.

It's a niche product. At least they don't charge Matrix Games/Slitherine prices.

This is also true. Still, you could say that their smaller sale numbers are appropriately compensated by the low risk/investment of only a couple of millions of dollars.

 

[Infinitron]

The end customer is always paying for everything.

Er I obviously meant "not JUST for manufacturing and distribution costs".

 

[dukeofwhales]

I'm not 100% sure that every information on the internet can be trusted, but according to many split between publishers and Steam is 70:30 which is a lot more than the pathetic 25:75 that they get when releasing the game in a physical form.

I think the 70:30 split is correct, but I thought the publisher/retailer split was around 50:50 at brick and mortar. That is, of course at RRP - many retailers sell considerably below RRP in Australia, cutting back their margins.

edit: fixed quoting

 

[tuluse]

I'm not 100% sure that every information on the internet can be trusted, but according to many split between publishers and Steam is 70:30 which is a lot more than the pathetic 25:75 that they get when releasing the game in a physical form.

I think the 70:30 split is correct, but I thought the publisher/retailer split was around 50:50 at brick and mortar. That is, of course at RRP - many retailers sell considerably below RRP in Australia, cutting back their margins.

According to Chris Roberts developers got $12 from a $50 game. Of course that's with the publisher cut already taken and he left the industry just before the publishers decided 90% of projects should be in house.

 

[dukeofwhales]

I'm not 100% sure that every information on the internet can be trusted, but according to many split between publishers and Steam is 70:30 which is a lot more than the pathetic 25:75 that they get when releasing the game in a physical form.

I think the 70:30 split is correct, but I thought the publisher/retailer split was around 50:50 at brick and mortar. That is, of course at RRP - many retailers sell considerably below RRP in Australia, cutting back their margins.

According to Chris Roberts developers got $12 from a $50 game. Of course that's with the publisher cut already taken and he left the industry just before the publishers decided 90% of projects should be in house.

It would really depend on how much money the publisher put in and the individual contract though. Since Obsidian developed NV on a lump sum contract (with a missed bonus), that argument would mean that they weren't getting anything from sales. If the publisher fully funded the studio's existence during development it's not exactly unfair that they should get the majority of the profits. Obsidian will presumably be getting ~50% of the $45 price for retail copies sold, less Paradox's cut.

 

[tuluse]

It would really depend on how much money the publisher put in and the individual contract though. Since Obsidian developed NV on a lump sum contract (with a missed bonus), that argument would mean that they weren't getting anything from sales. If the publisher fully funded the studio's existence during development it's not exactly unfair that they should get the majority of the profits. Obsidian will presumably be getting ~50% of the $45 price for retail copies sold, less Paradox's cut.

A traditional publishing contract works like this:

Publisher pays for game. Publisher sells game. You are contracted to get a share of the gross. Your share has to cover the amount the publisher payed for development before you receive a royalty check.

Like I said though, this was from before the time publishers became 90% publisher-developers, which is the world Obsidian lives in.

 

[Sensuki]

Info about areas, lighting and shadows from Sean Dunny from PM convo about Ogre Cave lighting.

I'll take a look and see where it stands tomorrow. Those things are the bane of my existence. It's one of the things that we need to figure out in the future. It was a relatively late addition to the workflow and we've never really locked down a good way to handle it.

I could spend all day tweaking one area and still not be entirely satisfied. I'll be sure to take a look at the character lighting in that area and see if there's anything that can be done about it though.

I'll also check tomorrow and see if we have any plans on supporting modding in areas. I know some of you guys have been discussing that possibility. I should warn you though, even if we provide tool support, area creation will be difficult and complex for anyone without pretty good knowledge of 3d. It's an extremely finicky system and it's really, really easy to break things without knowing exactly what has been broken. If we do provide documentation or tools support for area creation, it will probably be post release when things have calmed down a little bit

I didn't work much on this area directly, so I'll have to take a look at the scene file. What it looks like is that there is a point light placed in the doorway that's blowing out the characters there. I think the ambient map is likely too strong and the directional light is too weak.

To give a little bit of explanation, the ambient map adds a level of lighting relative to the color and value of the map itself - if the character is in an area that is colored bright red, they'll receive a red tint and some degree of lighting along with it. This can be helpful if, for instance, there is a room lit by some colorful light source. We add Unity lights to support these light sources, but can't rely on them too strongly for a variety of reasons. Where you get issues is when the ambient map is too universally bright. It washes out the characters and leads to a lot of the greying out that you sometimes get.

The main lighting in the scene is done by a directional light. Usually we also have a fill light providing some secondary illumination. I think Adam covered it a bit in one of the backer updates. Anyways, that is driven by the shadow map. It's pretty simple, wherever the map is dark, the lights are dimmed in those areas. It also reduces cast shadows (to avoid an ugly double shadow effect). The issue with the shadow map is that if it's too dark, characters are no longer being illuminated by the directional light (duh) and end up looking muddy and indistinct. We need to control the map carefully so that when a character wanders into a dark area, they dim slightly, but not so much that it gets ugly.

To make matters more complicated, in some scenes (not this one, I think) we are also using color look up tables to do the day/night color grade. This also effects the main directional light in the scene so that at night characters aren't lit by a strong yellow light.

Finally, all of this also affects 3d objects and water. This makes it extra touchy to try to get it right, again, I don't think this scene has any 3d objects, but whatever.

So, looking at the characters in your screenshots, I'd say what we have here is either a shadow map that is too dark and making characters muddy orjust the intensity of the directional light is too low. Combine that with an ambient map that is likely too bright (although properly saturated, probably) and you end up with something that looks like this. I could be wrong, but that's my guess from taking a look. Either way, you're right. It's looking not so great. I'll be sure to fix this up tomorrow.