Planescape Characters

[WouldBeCreator]

The first example still stands. If your wife or girlfriend were to suffer amnesia, and her personality changed as a result, would you still be in love with the same woman? Or would you consider that your love was dead, and this new woman was a complete stranger? It's not an easy one to answer, but it happens to be exactly Deionarra's situation. So what do you think?

Well, there is of course the question whether her personality would change. It's unclear how much is hardwired by that point and how much is memory. But if my wife got Phineas Gage'd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage) and turned into a cruel person, then it would be a harder call. The tragedy, of course, would be that I would be bound by the commitment to my love for her even if it was no longer the one I loved. Leviticus 26 -- I'm in a Bible-quoting mood from the other thread with HumanShield -- is about as perfect an expression of this commitment as I can think of off the top of my head. Commitments, real commitments, aren't contingent on the other person keeping their word. So I think you'd be obliged to go on loving her.

Which, would, of course, be a tragedy akin to Dak'kon's or Morte's, I think.

 

[undertaker]

Okay, I admit I got a bit away from myself and stretched my own interpretation into funny shapes. But to continue doing it: I'd argue that their impasse is metaphysical, because these are characters faced with eternity, their existence bound within a cage (only, instead of no exit, it has infinite exits, and yet is still a cage). In terms of the story, I don't think they can ever change their identity, hence their conflict is unsurmountable.

Unsurmountable conflict does not necessarily equate with existential absurdity, and I'm not entirely convinced that the followers' torment are metaphysical (I for one don't call love metaphysical). They are conflicted within themselves, but without the Nameless One's unique denial of True Death, their situation just isn't the same. As for the changing identities, I think that the Nameless One, for one, has changed his identity, either through the killing of his past incarnations or by absorbing them. In fact, the main question driving the game - "What can change the nature of a man?" - deals with the changing of identities (if your wisdom is high enough, you can ask and answer the Transcendent One, the answer is regret).

Meanwhile, the Nameless One is caught in the torment of Eternal Recurrence (as is everyone, only in his case it's very obvious). My own feeling is that the characters of Camus, Sartre, and Beckett could only despair when faced with this situation, but the Nameless One achieves a sort of amor fati and *transcends* the unsurmountable problem, and possibly shows the others the only possible answer to their own torment.

You make a solid point. My preferred reading is of the Nameless One transcending over nihilism (Nietzschean nihilism, not the philosophy), and the other characters transcending over their own issues (which, at least to me, isn't entirely existential). So the game, to me, is more about the journey of coming to terms with your situation and who you are. It's about identity, and honestly, that is what overcoming life's apparent futiliy is all about. Coming to terms with yourself, finding your essence, live without the need for higher purpose.

Cheers for coming to my aid with your evidently impressive knowledge, by the way. I am personally way out on a limb here, myself. But you do see the relevance, don't you? I'm not completely mad, am I?

You are not mad at all, in fact, I thought you were really insightful - I didn't really think about the philosophical aspects of the game that much at all (philosophically I was completely uneducated when I played the game at first). All works of art are open to interpretations (and all forms of media is an art, some less successful than others... it's hard to find a game you can take seriously, for example), and I think your reading is pretty valid.

No, let's have more of this, please! This is the stuff.

Haha! I agree with you right there! (Personally, I find these discussions much truer to the original spirit of the RPGcodex - are you reading this VD??)

DorrieB, have you played Arcanum yet? Arcanum is another excellent game where there are plenty of deeper meanings to enjoy, though perhaps without the emotional intensity of PST (where Arcanum lacks in drama, it makes up in wits and humour)

 

[voodoo1man]

Well, I would love to contribute something deep and meaningful to this thread, but all I have to offer is this question - did anyone else have a hard-on for that half-goat chick in the Brothel for Slating Intellectual Lusts? She could slap me around anytime. :wink:

I'm not sure about Deionarra. She didn't die in his place, at least in the literal sense. I'm not quite sure how the system was supposed to work, but it could be that she DID die in his place and that the system is a bit more abstract (e.g. a person doesn't just keel over when TNO is killed). I do know she died in the Fortress of Sorrows with TNO in one of his earlier lives when he was ambushed by his either his mortality or one of the shades. Or Ignus. I don't remember which.

Wasn't there something about the Fortress being cut off from the planes so that your life-strings or whatever wouldn't follow you there, so once you died in the Fortress your soul would stay there? I think you also asked the party members whether they were willing to risk this before you went through the portal.

 

[DorrieB]

DorrieB, have you played Arcanum yet? Arcanum is another excellent game where there are plenty of deeper meanings to enjoy, though perhaps without the emotional intensity of PST (where Arcanum lacks in drama, it makes up in wits and humour)

I have, and I love it, but it isn't the same, of course. Arcanum is fun and even thought-provoking, but PST just destroys me.

Arcanum also frustrated me a bit. It's full of interesting things that you barely get a glimpse of. For example, it features the handsomest orc you've ever seen, which is already kind of unusual, and he's a romantic-type union leader hero, and how cool is that? But you barely get to talk to him and never see him after that. Could be because they did so good a job crafting the setting, but one is left wanting more.

And I can't forgive them that horrorshow siamese twins skulls quest. What the gnomes were doing on that island was the vilest, most revolting horror, and as the heroine you can't do a bloody thing about it. You're meant to go on worrying about missing dwarfs and feckless cultists and forget the whole thing. I realise it's meant to be an X-Files pastiche, but oh, no. Not a frigging chance.

Um, so yes, I've played Arcanum and on the whole I very much enjoyed it. Have one or two issues with it, though.

 

[Drakron]

Wasn't there something about the Fortress being cut off from the planes so that your life-strings or whatever wouldn't follow you there, so once you died in the Fortress your soul would stay there? I think you also asked the party members whether they were willing to risk this before you went through the portal.

No.

Its part of the Shadow Plane and there is no way you can disconnect something from the Great Wheel ... its either on the planes, the astral or the prime.

The reason people would get "stuck" there was the portal was one way.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Don't you just ache for her?

No. I'm an asshole.

Photopia is the only game that resonated emotionally with me.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Photopia is a great journey of maudlin sentimentality. I was affected by it, too, for all its many flaws.

Depressingly, I'd put Suikoden on the list, but I can't imagine it deserves to be there. For some reason a scene where the hero's care-taker sacrifices himself and gets trapped inside a room with poisonous gas was really powerful for me when I played it. Crazy . . . .

 

[kingcomrade]

I found the soundtrack to PS:T online, and I was going through them. I'm pretty amazed at how well the music fit the game. It's certainly not typical fantasy-game music. My favorite of them is the Modron Cube Battle music. The clockwork sounds fit the area perfect.

The Modron Cube was probably my favorite area in the game, a nice parody of the typical fantasy dungeon-crawl.
"Hint: You now know more about the plot!" was classic. Some of the lines that the monsters in there speak are pretty good, as well. Like,
TNO - "What are you doing?"
Construct - "I am assuming aggressive posture and confident attitudes in the hopes that it will increase my chances of winning." Or something like that.

Just too many fun characters in that game.

 

[Blacklung]

This thread gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling I had inside during my Highschool English classes, where we would sit and talk about existentialism and nihilism. Hemingway and Camu, Chekhov, Faulkner...ah I miss those days with Herr Hagedorn...Greatest teacher I ever had.

Oh on that previous idea of old self and new self, bhuddism has an interesting outlook on this. At every moment of our lives we are creating new selves, where the old self is wiped away by the new self created out of though, action, etc. However, this is a continuous, unbroken process and there is technically an eternal self. I suppose you could either say that this eternal self defines how self changes or vice versa, depending on what kind of stance you take on it...it's one of those things which even bhuddists have a hard time figuring out.

Technically if you look at the self in this manner, your self does change, but there is always something that is the same, a continuous "you."

Personally, I love this idea. When I was young I was ignorant and did many ignorant things...when I was older I had much more knowledge and avoided the silly mistakes I made as a child and made new ones which helped educate me...despite it all, I have always been "me."

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I hated english class. If I heard about the "human condition" one more time I was going to fucking kill someone. Thankfully, because of A.P in college I don't have to do any more social science/humanities crap.

 

[RK47]

I found the soundtrack to PS:T online, and I was going through them. I'm pretty amazed at how well the music fit the game. It's certainly not typical fantasy-game music. My favorite of them is the Modron Cube Battle music. The clockwork sounds fit the area perfect.

The Modron Cube was probably my favorite area in the game, a nice parody of the typical fantasy dungeon-crawl.
"Hint: You now know more about the plot!" was classic. Some of the lines that the monsters in there speak are pretty good, as well. Like,
TNO - "What are you doing?"
Construct - "I am assuming aggressive posture and confident attitudes in the hopes that it will increase my chances of winning." Or something like that.

Just too many fun characters in that game.

you have to be kidding. that M-Maze is what i hated most in the game. It's like a battle to test endurance. room after room after room after room of crazed sentinels. I was really glad when I got it over with.

 

[roguefrog]

Its part of the Shadow Plane

I thought it was the Negative Material Plane

 

[Kairal]

I don't have a whole lot to contribute but Dorrie B you said (or implied) that the others were stuck with their torments where this really isn't true. I can definietly see how too of them were resolved in the ending (I.e. Dakkon decides that his bond to you is over thus solving his problem).

 

[Drakron]

Its part of the Shadow Plane

I thought it was the Negative Material Plane

Nope, shadow ... I have a good memory for tabbits like that.

 

[Hamanu]

If you're talking about the endgame area where you confront the transcendant one, it is the negative material plane. I think they made a mistake here though and meant the negative energy plane instead. The plane of Shadows coexists with all primes, and creatures there have neither life or unlife. It isn't inherently dangerous to travel there and many wizards use it as a shortcut. The shadow plane exists between the planes of negative and positive energy, but doesn't intersect them.

As for the negative energy plane itself, it's the source of all negative energy whether used in spells or to give unlife to the undead. It is utterly dark and light doesn't exist there. You can't see a thing unless you have darkvision somehow. Anyone who travels there loses 2d6 health and one level per round until they no longer exist. Death in the negative energy plane is final and complete. It's the only 'place' in the metaverse where you don't end up in the astral, you simply cease to be. It's populated by various undead, and the doomguard.

 

[DorrieB]

I don't have a whole lot to contribute but Dorrie B you said (or implied) that the others were stuck with their torments where this really isn't true. I can definietly see how too of them were resolved in the ending (I.e. Dakkon decides that his bond to you is over thus solving his problem).

For heaven's sake, don't start off with 'I dont have a whole lot to contribute', when you very much do. I have no idea what I'm talking about, and it doesn't stop me shooting off my mouth, does it?

Yes, there's a definite ending to the story and the characters all find a resolution of sorts, emphasis on the 'of sorts'. Let's not forget, though, Dak'kon was a pariah among his people because of what had happened, and there was no changing that. Dak'kon *knew* himself, though, didn't he?

What I was saying was that each of the others (except, I thought, Deionarra) was a mirror for the Nameless One, and that he was a mirror for, well, you. Undertaker sort of agreed that TNO was a mirror for you, but disagreed that the others are distorted mirrors for him, and he's probably right and I'm wrong.

I hated english class. If I heard about the "human condition" one more time I was going to fucking kill someone. Thankfully, because of A.P in college I don't have to do any more social science/humanities crap.

Yes, I imagine the humanities wouldn't go over very well among the klingons. Here on planet Earth, though, the human condition is rather an important matter for the human race.

Technically if you look at the self in this manner, your self does change, but there is always something that is the same, a continuous "you."

Sounds awfully close to the concept of a soul. Easy to write off if you're a hard core positivist, but to the lad who said 'Your decisions are what make you *you*' , I would ask, *who* is making all of these decisions, then? Is there a 'you' that arises from each decision that is made, and another 'you' that makes the decisions in order to be created? I'd agree with your buddhists, me, but don't ask me to make a case for it.

Kingcomrade: The music was the dog's bollocks, all of it. I did think the modron cube was a bit too much, though. The parody is brilliant the first two or three times, but twenty times or more? They maybe could have done without the three different settings. Still very cool, and Nordom is adorable, so...

 

[kingcomrade]

Does dog's bollocks mean good or bad?

I acutally didn't find Nordom because I got bored with the Cube after the "medium" settings. But I enjoyed the parody.

As for characters, the party characters were some of the best fleshed-out I've seen in a game, but I enjoyed, so much more, the silly 1d and 2d characters like the armoire that I posted in the first post. Not very many games have made me laugh like when I went to the Sensates' building and saw the headless body ricocheting off walls with a *BONK* in the lobby. Sensate's stones were also a great place for characterization (or imagery or whatever). I'm talking about in the "public" rooms where you get just little tidbits of description from various random characters that the dev just dreamed up and wrote about. The one that sticks in my mind for some reason is the complete frustration of a demon who has absolutely no way to strike back against the greater demons who abuse him. That area of the game is proof enough of the power of prose, even in games. If those little 'experiences' had been fully 3d rendered with JiggleTech<tm> and HydroDynamicLaserBeamRendering they would've been just meaningless little animations.

Could anyone tell me about the chick in the introductory movie who turns into a zombie? That doesn't look like Deionarra, but I haven't figured out who it was.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Could anyone tell me about the chick in the introductory movie who turns into a zombie? That doesn't look like Deionarra, but I haven't figured out who it was.

http://crap.planescape-torment.org/thre ... s_girl.htm

Hey, Gondolin - the woman that appears in the movie is an unidentified victim of one of the Nameless One's previous incarnations. She was made up by the artists, and her story was never fleshed out or put into the game. It was more of a, "it looks cool, let's put her in."

Sorry to have created a mystery - hope this goes a ways to dispelling it,

Chris Avellone @ BIS

 

[Human Shield]

If you're talking about the endgame area where you confront the transcendant one, it is the negative material plane. I think they made a mistake here though and meant the negative energy plane instead. The plane of Shadows coexists with all primes, and creatures there have neither life or unlife. It isn't inherently dangerous to travel there and many wizards use it as a shortcut. The shadow plane exists between the planes of negative and positive energy, but doesn't intersect them.

As for the negative energy plane itself, it's the source of all negative energy whether used in spells or to give unlife to the undead. It is utterly dark and light doesn't exist there. You can't see a thing unless you have darkvision somehow. Anyone who travels there loses 2d6 health and one level per round until they no longer exist. Death in the negative energy plane is final and complete. It's the only 'place' in the metaverse where you don't end up in the astral, you simply cease to be. It's populated by various undead, and the doomguard.

Didn't the Dustmen build a citadel in the negative energy plane or something?

 

[kingcomrade]

Another thing I wanted to mention in the "little things" categories was the weapon and item descriptions. They came up with some of the most interesting weapons and items, and most had a story behind them. Rather than just have random +1 weapons lying around which are utterly generic, most of the more powerful items have stories and whatnot, so they all seem unique, completely opposite of, say, Diablo's scheme where magical items are trivial and mundane.

 

[Rat Keeng]

Way back in the days of yore, Chris Avellone talked quite a bit about how he wanted to break away from the regular RPG recipe and make something out of the ordinary, including item-wise. Like, tats, bracelets/intestines, eyeballs, no armor and what have you, as opposed to the BG model of just packing the game with [WEAPON/ARMOR]+X. It helps in making you focus on the story, and not just trying to get that one particular type of weapon with one more "plus" on it.

Oh, and "dog's bollocks" is a good thing. Why? Because no dog can keep from licking his bollocks, so there must be something great about them

 

[kingcomrade]

Way back in the days of yore, Chris Avellone talked quite a bit about how he wanted to break away from the regular RPG recipe and make something out of the ordinary, including item-wise. Like, tats, bracelets/intestines, eyeballs, no armor and what have you, as opposed to the BG model of just packing the game with [WEAPON/ARMOR]+X. It helps in making you focus on the story, and not just trying to get that one particular type of weapon with one more "plus" on it.

Oh, and "dog's bollocks" is a good thing. Why? Because no dog can keep from licking his bollocks, so there must be something great about them

I'm glad he did. Practically everything in PS:T oozes creativity. I mean, the normal fantasy clichés are buried so that I can't think of them off the top of my head. All of that effort really makes the setting feel unique, rather than generic-fantasy-land which is what I think of when someone mentions most of the other fantasy RPGs (or games). What's strange is that even as I think about it, PS:T does follow some of the conventions but does them in very different ways. There's always a big city, a crypt level, a sewers level, there's always undead (the Mortuary is probably the best thought-out area that deals with undead in any game I've played. There, they aren't special, they're just part of the economy. Especially how they described skeletons has needing leather thongs and such to be able to move and keep from breaking.)

 

[Hamanu]

Didn't the Dustmen build a citadel in the negative energy plane or something?

Yeah, I forgot about them. They did build a stonghold there. I think they maintain at least a few gates from the mortuary in Sigil to the negative energy plane. So I guess they're actually more prevalent there than the Doomguard. I've always thought that the Dustmen were one of the more intersting factions, with their belief that all reality in the metaverse is simply a shadow of a better existence. They'll kill anything living in an effort to help them along the path to true daeth, but they aren't openly militant like the Doomguard.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

What would happen if every power managed to get into sigil?

why'd the lady let Vecna in anyway?

to prove a point that was already made with aoskar(didnt he give her the ability to maze?)?

 

[Drakron]

The Lady of Pain is a mystery.

Vecna got back since TSR (or WotC) wanted their "end of 2nd ed AD&D" module so they created those adventure modules (likda like with 1st ed. with the "Time of Troubles" modules, expect people did noit so many shitty sub-grade crap to read about as "novels") that were wacky.

Never read those modules so I dont give details ... basic its Vecna got in because some they wanted him to and damn if something as "setting intregity" was getting in their way.