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Torment Planescape Torments Me

Castanova

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CappenVarra said:
I'm just curious, why didn't you name the thread "Starting and Near-Starting Areas in Computer Role Playing Games: A Case Study"

Because, unlike the designers of PST, I know what a hook is and how to follow up on it. ZING. (OK, unwarranted but I couldn't resist)

Not to mention that I've progressed well past the near-starting areas and the gameplay has actually gotten worse in some regards! In the beginning, I could skip the FedEx quests. To progress the story I just had to get to the next important NPC and/or do some interesting quests. In the Lower Ward/Clerk Ward area, you need to complete something like 10-15 legs of a banal FedEx delivery route, many of these legs having nothing to do with the main plot, just to get entrance Ravel's maze.

But thanks, CappenVarra, for posting a link to some design docs. Unfortunately Avellone's intentions translated only into ironic meta-flourishes, not a new game design that actually addresses his valid frustrations. If anything the design docs are depressing because, given more recent releases, we bare witness to a man who's aware of his own game's, and the genre's, idiotic tropes and yet continues to rely on them.

Anyway, I thought the argument in the thread was about how PST has bad/sparse gameplay, not that it includes no gameplay whatsoever. But I'm glad Gragt was inspired to produce something clever.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
But thanks, CappenVarra, for posting a link to some design docs. Unfortunately Avellone's intentions translated only into ironic meta-flourishes, not a new game design that actually addresses his valid frustrations. If anything the design docs are depressing because, given more recent releases, we bare witness to a man who's aware of his own game's, and the genre's, idiotic tropes and yet continues to rely on them.

I disagree with you here, and I suspect many of the people defending PST do as well. I thought PST did an excellent job deconstructing the RPG genre.

I'd like to stress that just because you don't like PST's gameplay doesn't mean the gameplay is bad. If you go into the game expecting an adventure/RPG type game where you're expected to do quests, talk to everyone, and solve puzzles, you'll probably enjoy it. If you don't like doing those things, well, then you'll start a 15 page thread on the Codex and here we are.

If you aren't having fun with the game, stop playing it. Some of the best aspects of PST (in terms of story) are unlocked by talking to one or more seemingly unimportant NPCs or doing seemingly unimportant quests, or both. So you'll probably end up with a mediocre experience, having skipped much of that.
 

jancobblepot

Educated
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The fact that it is not "my" character played a better role than I expected since The Nameless One more or less becomes your "protégé". You realize that you never play "your" character anyway, and that having a set character gave the writers more narrative freedom when it comes to his past deeds, his past companions

Welcome to JRPGs. :roll: JK, I think I was TNO just because TNO was never "himself".
 

CappenVarra

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Marie said:
It looks like I am late at the party but still.

Melissan, I am assuming you never finished Planescape Torment here. Perhaps I am wrong. In any case, it is directed to you but I suppose anyone who felt Planescape Torment was too boring to be worth playing through might be intented to consider this.

You mentionned that you liked Morrowind and KotOR 2.

Morrowind also suffers from the "no gameplay syndrom" as most people seem to put it here. In fact, there is a common line on the Codex saying you can read / explore Morrowind, but you cannot play Morrowind. This opinion is not mine but you cannot dismiss the fact that Morrowind must look very bland to someone who is used to modern games with high-production values such as, say, The Witcher 2, Risen, or even Oblivion.

Between broken mechanics, slow pace, dull NPC activity and subpar combat, Morrowind without its obese lore would have made for a very uninteresting game, especially if it had had a more casual art direction. You were able to tolerate a degree of blandness to unearth something that "consumed your life". I have to assume it was because it felt alien and unique. There was a "something" that hooked you.

Truth to be told, Planescape Torment is one of the rare games where I forced myself. I wanted to see what was so good about it and the beginning was just, to me at least, boring and pointless, a real "why should I care" inferno. The writing was good, there were some well-thought and unexpected details (the barman selling you your own eye) but I did not feel engaged at all, especially since it was not "my" character.

But so much praise coming from a reliable source in term of good games (RPGCodex, and yes I maintain it) made me want to dig deeper. So I did force myself and as it happened, the plot picked up, it did end up hooking me and I reached a state where I just had to see how it unfolded. Once the beginning is set and once the plot is on open wheels, it becomes much better at getting you to care.

The fact that it is not "my" character played a better role than I expected since The Nameless One more or less becomes your "protégé". You realize that you never play "your" character anyway, and that having a set character gave the writers more narrative freedom when it comes to his past deeds, his past companions, and the fact that he is so anti-glamour makes him more interesting and enjoyable, because you enjoy and like him not for his look but for his individuality, another detail well-played by Obsidian and showing their care in the use of mild psycology.

Another thing that can play against you is the whole "I have no idea what is going on" syndrome. And indeed, you cannot jump in expecting this or that. It is so hard to describe that you are just left saying "just play it, trust me, it will be good". Indeed I had no idea what the game was about. I was just given the disc and, well, I tried. And I know I am not talking in vain and that maybe you will reconsider Planescape Torment because you said you liked KotOR 2.

Now, you didn't specify what you liked about it, but KotOR 2 is really Planescape Torment in space. It follows all the same narrative lines and also enjoys deconstructing the setting it is supposed to happen in. The character goes through similar misfortunes and, irony, the plot takes a while to "unlock" and unfold at a more satisfactory pace. It sometimes just looks like they switched a few names and transposed it into Star Wars. Also, doesn't KotOR 2 begin with you trapped in a space station and lots, lots of non-interactive data from various holograms?

The fact that you liked it shows its much fancier presentation played a big role in your apprecation of it. Since KotOR is a very uninteresting game without its writing (see KotOR 1 to know what KotOR 2 without its writing is), it must means it is the writing's depth that pleased you, and that you just needed a smoother interface, a more visual environment instead of lengthy descriptions, etc.

But, in effect, it demonstrated that you can, and indeed you did like that kind of story. It makes all the more sense to you to return to Planescape Torment, thoughen up for all the production value it did not have, maybe cheat to get rid of the combat boredom and unlock more dialogue options, and overal just let the plot unfold and enjoy the adventure.

So, my point is simple: try harder, it will hook you eventually, and you will realize that the middle and end are much, much better than the beginning. You should really see the end of it, if only to see what the plot of KotOR 2 would have been if Obsidian had had the time to actually finish the game. And, in the second half of the game, every time something will happen or be revealed, you will realize it is completely unlike any other game, and how it makes so many other games look like sad D&D / LotR rip-offs when there is so much more to do, so much personal depth to explore and, interestingly, how drama and emotion can be completely independant from teenager over-emotionality.

See it through the end at least once. You might have to force yourself here and there, but it will be worth it. It may not reach the same status to you as it has to many people here, but you would be doing a mistake not to know why it does.
De-lurking for a good cause :thumbsup:

Also, somebody is being sensible, helpful and friendly on the codex. Is... Is this even allowed? ;)
 

CappenVarra

phase-based phantasmist
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@Castanova: To continue the friendly tone and promote goodwill, let's take a moment and try to find a few possible reasons why people react badly to your posts, based on one of the recent & more approachable ones.

Castanova said:
Because, unlike the designers of PST, I know what a hook is and how to follow up on it. ZING. (OK, unwarranted but I couldn't resist)
Unfortunate tendency for pompous self-congratulating zings? Part of the problem. If you're still wondering why anybody thought that you were trying too hard, look no further. Just sayin', no ad hominem homo involved.

Castanova said:
But thanks, CappenVarra, for posting a link to some design docs.
Oh right, thanks for pointing out that I forgot to actually link to anything. The quotes were from an interview ( http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/nonfi ... new-vegas/ ), and the "high level vision statement" linked from that interview ( http://www.rpgwatch.com/files/Files/00- ... t_1997.pdf ). So it's not a full-fledged design document used (but it's quite informative and interesting); my fault for mis-naming it before. Slight term confusion? My fault.

Castanova said:
Unfortunately Avellone's intentions translated only into ironic meta-flourishes, not a new game design that actually addresses his valid frustrations. If anything the design docs are depressing because, given more recent releases, we bare witness to a man who's aware of his own game's, and the genre's, idiotic tropes and yet continues to rely on them.
Uhm... Speaking about the "design docs" being depressing, as if I've actually linked to them and you've actually read them, instead of a few short quotes? Part of the problem.

I mean, everybody skips over some irrelevant details, that's totally understandable. The only reason I'm pointing this minor slip-up of yours out is that it's actually quite characteristic of the claims you made. At first, you considered PS:T badly designed. When some facts were brought to point out that quite some thought was actually put into the design, now you're claiming that the game failed to fulfill the design's intentions. Without bothering to read the design intentions, and without finishing the game.

Yes, yes, this does sound like the old "you have to finish the game 7 times to be allowed to criticize it" standard, and we did summarize parts of that design already. But would it be unfair to say that the amount of detail you skipped over right there could assume a vaguely baby-like form to somebody looking at the bathwater puddle from another perspective?

See, everybody in this thread is biased in some way. My bias? Playing the game several times and actually liking it (enough to hunt down obscure 1997 pdfs). Your bias? Deciding that the game is shit about 7 hours into playing it, that skipping non-mandatory parts is justified because it's shit anyway, and that making sweeping generalizations of a negative persuasion is the best way to discuss the game. Yes, yes, the nature of the codex and all that jazz. As other people (as in, not me) said that the game fulfills its design intentions quite well in their opinion (in other words, it is excellent for what it is), you claiming that it doesn't is basically based on you deciding that it doesn't, come hell or high water. Of course, that's your choice to make. If you ever wonder why such a huge number of "fanboys" appeared to cast flamestrike, just be aware that's not an unexpected consequence for your choice.

So, it all kinda makes sense, you know. And one would expect long-time members of prestigious magazines to be able to grasp such basic C&C as is involved. Grasp, and predict what the reactions will be after posting. But hopefully not do it anyway for the lulz ("OK, unwarranted but I couldn't resist") :)

Also, I believe I just used up my daily quota of being sensible and not-condescending, so it's time to head to flamier pastures. Did Mastermind post anything lately?

EDIT: spelling.
 

Zomg

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Messages
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Yah like 99% of these gameplay fucking yes threads can end if the newbies trying to upset the codex applecart step up and name the shit they like. "Fuck PS:T. Morrowind is good though, elite gameplay. Hell yeah grinding in Secret of the Silver Blades, exquisite. I am top of my server in WoW." Gameplay is a good constructive article of criticism but if you actually examine the shit you really like it will be lacking in several titles, because you wouldn't be playing RPGs if that was your only goal.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
WTF? This post is HUGE and consists of NOTHING but memes :?
Verily, Racofer was right when he called the place 4chandex

Marie said:
you can read / explore Morrowind, but you cannot play Morrowind. This opinion is not mine but you cannot dismiss the fact that Morrowind must look very bland to someone who is used to modern games with high-production values such as, say, The Witcher 2, Risen, or even Oblivion.
I like the rest of your post, even if I disagree with some of it, but this particular bit doesn't make any sense. You cannot play Morrowind therefore it looks bland because it doesn't have production values as high as Oblivion?

Gragt said:
So we do not play Torment, we … read it? click it through? endure it, and in enduring grow strong? move it, move it? follow its trail of digital breadcrumbs? experience deconstruction of game design? enjoy fancy menus, and not the kind you find in restaurants? adventure it all along while we mistakenly think that we rpg it? get punched in the face by the rule of three? troll the codex? polish the monocle? multihead the dick? prateek the sanjay? sample the inanity? serve fair Codexia? get out of the kitchen? Or maybe all this time we are actually played by Torment?
:salute:
 

Castanova

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CappenVarra said:
Unfortunate tendency for pompous self-congratulating zings? Part of the problem.

It was tongue-in-cheek. As was pretty obvious by the term "unwarranted" which appears only a few pixels away from the joke. But, sure, please continue to analyze and comment on my character flaws based on about fifteen posts in a thread about a video game.

CappenVarra said:
Uhm... Speaking about the "design docs" being depressing, as if I've actually linked to them and you've actually read them, instead of a few short quotes? Part of the problem.

I read the PST design docs like four or five years ago, or whenever it was, when they were circulating. Like, as in, yes, the whole thing (that was available to me). I read them because I had tried playing PST before, found it tedious, but heard the design docs were interesting. On a whim I checked them out and discovered they were more interesting than the game itself. Partly because the design doc is interesting from a design perspective and also partly because I could experience some of the story without having to watch my pixels walk for 5 minutes before the game dispenses the next "chapter."

CappenVarra said:
At first, you considered PS:T badly designed.

I still maintain that.

CappenVarra said:
When some facts were brought to point out that quite some thought was actually put into the design,

I never said they didn't think about PST's design. In fact, I've repeatedly praised, in this very thread, the intelligence of the people behind PST. The design docs and the ironic in-jokes in PST demonstrate that Avellone thinks about and understands more of the RPG genre than the whole staff at Bethesda and BioWare combined have in their entire lives. Just because you put a ton of effort into something doesn't mean you did a good and successful job.

CappenVarra said:
now you're claiming that the game failed to fulfill the design's intentions

I didn't say that. I said it was ironic that Avellone deconstructs the RPG genre IN THE GAME but does nothing to fix the problems he's highlighting. He has dialog and FedEx quests that are there solely to make fun of RPG FedEx quests, which demonstrates that he knows FedEx quests are bad (or at least what's bad about them), but he fills the rest of the game TO THE BRIM with FedEx quests. He deconstructs dungeon crawling and yet everywhere you go you're being aggroed by Thugs. And so on. Winking at the player while you hand them a bad RPG trope doesn't excuse you, regardless of how cleverly you deliver the wink.

I don't remember his design docs clearly enough to say whether he succeeded in implementing the intentions. Nor would I want to waste time arguing about such a thing.
 

CappenVarra

phase-based phantasmist
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Castanova said:
But, sure, please continue to analyze and comment on my character flaws based on about fifteen posts in a thread about a video game.
I thought we agreed it's not about your real character, but the apparent impression left on people who don't know you IRL but read this thread? One would hope that not everybody who replies to your posts has to know your IRL character, perhaps?

Anyway, I was trying to be semi-helpful there; guess only shutting up will suffice. And just like Planescape:Torment, I'm not good at shutting up. Also, I'm glad you've actually read the docs, have fun :)

Well I, for one, plan on discovering the secrets of the multiverse by rubbing cottage cheese on my belly and eating vast quantities of fresh-water fish. Mmm... cheese.
 

DraQ

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Castanova said:
having to watch my pixels walk for 5 minutes

Uh, just checking:
You do know you can run, right?

He has dialog and FedEx quests that are there solely to make fun of RPG FedEx quests, which demonstrates that he knows FedEx quests are bad (or at least what's bad about them), but he fills the rest of the game TO THE BRIM with FedEx quests.
I don't think you can avoid FedEx quests entirely. Whenever you need to fetch an object and, heavan!s forbid, use it in a specific location, it's technically a FedEx quest.

He deconstructs dungeon crawling and yet everywhere you go you're being aggroed by Thugs
Actually, you can avoid it by simply not coming too close to them and not running past them. They don't really block any routes.

Of course, you failed to find stealth route through the tenement either, which lets you avoid fighting the huge room of thugs, so...
:smug:
 

empi

Augur
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Skyway is a nice troll.
Like with all trolls he gets boring after a while.
 

Castanova

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DraQ said:
Uh, just checking:
You do know you can run, right?

Duh.

DraQ said:
Of course, you failed to find stealth route through the tenement either, which lets you avoid fighting the huge room of thugs, so...
:smug:

What makes you say that? I didn't fight the room full of thugs. I fought the thugs on the second/third floor to get the key.
 

Johannes

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casting coach
I don't know, there's a lot of books I feel would be fun to read again but in the end I always prioritize reading new stuff instead.

Same with PS:T really, I think I'd have fun replaying it but can't find the time.
 

Roguey

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MetalCraze said:
PS:T is a nice book.

Like with all books you read it once.
What's wrong, not romantic enough for you?
 

Kaanyrvhok

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Messages
1,096
Castanova said:
malko_sundervere said:
ITT: >>Talk to everyone in the Hive
>> Complain that there's too much dialogue

I figured the npcs were there for a reason. But thanks for pointing out that the key to enjoying PST is to skip its content.

for me it was. Once I stopped trying to do everything and just did what I felt like or what I felt the NO should feel like doing I had fun. Thats how I played every RPG since.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Clockwork Knight said:
Admiral jimbob said:
If a book is only worth reading once it's probably not a good book

Good books are supposed to be read only once. Great books, on the other hand, should be read

seven times

:yeah:
 

314159

Educated
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Messages
568
Wow, these fanboys sure are retarded. That actually explains a lot :lol:
 

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