[Poll] Ishar, Arkania and Amber

[Morkar Left]

The Amber series is sort of a reimport of a JRPG style by western developers,

WHAT? Amberstar is as western as it can get. I don't even know how you can think it's similar to jrpgs?

 

[made]

The Amber series is sort of a reimport of a JRPG style by western developers,

WHAT? Amberstar is as western as it can get. I don't even know how you can think it's similar to jrpgs?

Minimal character creation/recruitable NPCs/linear story/heavy focus on dialogue - people played FF7 and immediately associate that with jRPGs although the comparison to Ultima is much closer.

Amberstar and -moon were fine imo. Albion, however, overdid it.

 

[Morkar Left]

Minimal character creation/recruitable NPCs/linear story/heavy focus on dialogue - people played FF7 and immediately associate that with jRPGs although the comparison to Ultima is much closer.

Amberstar and -moon were fine imo. Albion, however, overdid it.

I refer here to Amberstar since I haven't played Ambermoon (but there doesn't seem to be such a big difference so far). Albion indeed isn't part of the amber series even if it uses the gamemechanics and a similar engine.

Minimal character creation -> you could say this to ishar and A LOT of other rpgs, too. Even Dungeon Master fits this category. There IS a char editor for Amberstar btw.

recruitable NPCs -> not uncommen in wrpgs. Yeah, Ultima, Magic Candle, Ishar etc...

linear story -> you have free world exploration and can go wherever you want and can decide by yourself which amberstars you want to get first. That the story is somehow linear isn't surprising and true for the majority of rpgs (look for some macguffins to enter the lair of the the big foozle and slay him)

heavy focus on dialogue -> Heavy focus? There is dialog but heavy focus? This isn't nearly Planescape or Fallout. Wizardry 8 has similar dialogue and I wouldn't consider it a heavy focus there.

people played FF7 -> probably the same people who consider zelda an rpg...If you want and trying hard enough you can consider almost all rpgs to be jrpgs, too. Or actiongames being rpgs... Maybe someone associates it with an jrpg but that doesn't make it a true statement.

 

[mondblut]

Amberstar ripped means-of-transportation-as-plot-device from JRPGs, such as Phantasy Star. The magic disk, the flying eagle, you name it. In a real RPG, if you need some means to cross impassable terrain, you just go and fucking buy it, not complete quests to acquire the one true (for this given case) logistical solution necessary to proceed (and rest assured, sooner than later you'll meet a different kind of impassable terrain you'd need to complete another set of quests to be able to cross). That's a classic JRPG staple.

 

[Morkar Left]

You can buy horses and ships right from the start if you have the money. The disc you can find from dugeonexploring and the eagle is indeed a quest. Which is not surprising by the nature of a giant eagle (and a rip off from Tolkien, that western fantasy writer guy). Plus you can use teleportation devices which are quest related, too. But I see absolutely nothing jrpg here. It's just common fantasy schtick (like in Ultima, wizardry, m&m etc.). And you can still reach all locations without having to rely on such things except the ship. Really trying too hard here me seems...

 

[empi]

Just hearing mention of the RoA trilogy made me restart a party in BoD, gonna do the marathon for the 5th or so time, fucking them

 

[made]

Amberstar ripped means-of-transportation-as-plot-device from JRPGs, such as Phantasy Star. The magic disk, the flying eagle, you name it. In a real RPG, if you need some means to cross impassable terrain, you just go and fucking buy it, not complete quests to acquire the one true (for this given case) logistical solution necessary to proceed (and rest assured, sooner than later you'll meet a different kind of impassable terrain you'd need to complete another set of quests to be able to cross). That's a classic JRPG staple.

Except that Amberstar doesn't gate progression nearly as hard as your typical jRPGs that make sure you don't access areas until the story allows. You need the eagle whistle to get to an otherwise unreachable area, but you can grab it as soon as lvl 1 provided you can beat the dragon guarding it. Unless you're gonna tell me the whole concept of finding macguffins to progress is a mechanic that was absent from RPGs until the japs invented it.

Ambermoon is actually a much worse offender, as it keeps the first two islands very linear through quest progression until the game finally opens up. Albion then takes this to the extreme, which simply makes it a boring game

 

[mondblut]

You can buy horses and ships right from the start if you have the money.

Ship (and raft before) yes, gotta give it to them. Were it a true JRPG, there would be only one raft and ship in the world, and you'd have to cross half the world doing quests in order to become its proud owner. But then you start stumbling upon terrain you can't cross with a ship, and means of transportation become plot devices.

Except that Amberstar doesn't gate progression nearly as hard as your typical jRPGs that make sure you don't access areas until the story allows.

Not nearly, yes. Still, the areas story wants to keep you away from just happen to be located somewhere you can't reach using common means of transportation. Compare to e.g. Wizardry 7, where the first half of the game is basically about finding a ship to cross to the island, but nothing prevents you from just guessing the puzzle unlocking it or, indeed, stock up on stamina potions and just swim across the sea.

Ambermoon is actually a much worse offender, as it keeps the first two islands very linear through quest progression until the game finally opens up. Albion then takes this to the extreme, which simply makes it a boring game

I noted that too, that the series got increasingly linear with every installment.

 

[made]

Not nearly, yes. Still, the areas story wants to keep you away from just happen to be located somewhere you can't reach using common means of transportation. Compare to e.g. Wizardry 7, where the first half of the game is basically about finding a ship to cross to the island, but nothing prevents you from just guessing the puzzle unlocking it or, indeed, stock up on stamina potions and just swim across the sea.

Wiz 7 huh. Does it not have teleporters than you unlock by completing a quest? Poppy fields that put you to sleep until you find some shit that allows you to pass? Areas that require a certain lvl in climbing/swimming to access? Typical RPG mechanic. Do X to access Y. It's more forgiving than most games because you can overcome many obstacles with ingenuity/metaknowledge, but still not as open as, say, Ultima 6, that basically allows you to teleport anywhere and explore the whole map right from the start.

 

[mondblut]

Wiz 7 huh. Does it not have teleporters than you unlock by completing a quest?

Can't remember any. Although that doesn't mean there are none. :shrug:

Poppy fields that put you to sleep until you find some shit that allows you to pass?

It's only there to force you to take a longer road around it, not to forcefeed you another Dramatic Quest For The World's Only Gasmask. They could just as well place some forest or mountain squares in there, but that would make getting back from the Dane to New City a really long walk. So they put in a shortcut, then made a "poppy fields" event to save a 1st level party from taking a wrong turn and getting instaraped by mid to high level opposition.

Areas that require a certain lvl in climbing/swimming to access?

Stuff becoming accessible depending on having specific stats is, if anything, a total opposite of stuff becoming accessible after you're handheld through railroaded quest triggers. The former means "persist, and you will have it your own way". The later, "our story is teh awesome, so bend over and behave". Which is pretty much the primary watershed between RPGs and japshit.

Typical RPG mechanic. Do X to access Y.

The typical RPG mechanic is "Do X, W, or Z to access Y". "Do X to access Y" is a shit RPG mechanic.

 

[made]

So they put in a shortcut, then made a "poppy fields" event to save a 1st level party from taking a wrong turn and getting instaraped by mid to high level opposition.

Sounds like handholding to me.

Stuff becoming accessible depending on having specific stats is, if anything, a total opposite of stuff becoming accessible after you're handheld through railroaded quest triggers.

There is no difference in training climbing skill to a required level or finding the grappling hook to cross mountains. The deciding factor is are you free to do either on your own terms or only when the story allows you to. In Amberstar's case it's the former.

The typical RPG mechanic is "Do X, W, or Z to access Y". "Do X to access Y" is a shit RPG mechanic.

Yes, choices and multiple paths are good design. We all agree.

 

[mondblut]

Sounds like handholding to me.

A bit of it, yes. They could make no shortcuts (or drop a ring-like world layout altogether) and force a player to cross half a world on his way back. They could also leave it open and allow a beginning party to march straight into endgame-tier encounters 30 squares from the game's starting point. Both decisions are at least as much questionable as is placing a barrier from the starting side and going some lengths to acceptably explain it.

A lot of games have teleporters in the very beginnings of their locations which just happen to malfunction and are restored by visiting their counterparts - which just happen to be in the end boss' toilet. Convenient, eh? The poppy field is exactly the same.

There is no difference in training climbing skill to a required level or finding the grappling hook to cross mountains. The deciding factor is are you free to do either on your own terms or only when the story allows you to. In Amberstar's case it's the former.

That's true (providing by "free to do on your own terms" you imply grappling hooks are as common as opportunities to train climbing skill). In Amberstar's case, however, a ship is the most advanced means of transportation that is common. The magic disk, the eagle, and whatever else was there you eventually needed to use to get to someplace otherwise unaccessible are all unique and unlocked as parts of main quest. That's how I remember it, anyway.

 

[Wolfus]

One of the best game soundtracks of all time. It creates an atmosphere so contrary to what you'd expect from burly, shirtless warlords but so fitting.

No. It is THE BEST soundtrack EVAR!

well i liked Ishar alot due to the graphics, RoA for the big ass map, and Amber because it was among the first Amiga RPG's i had.

Same here.



Although RoA is technicaly the best series, Ambermoon is most user-friendly game ever created. I voted for Amber.

 

[Luzur]

i still remember screaming profanities at that wine-slime in the pub basement..

 

[CorpseZeb]

Some user front sidenotes. From the hardware perspective, only the Amberstar was playable on the standard Amiga 500 (one floppy mayhem...). RoA requires a hard drive for "sane" gameplay, Ambermoon adds to that a 68020 processor (at least). IIRC, RoA was one of the rare Amiga games that using a EHB (64 colours) mode, thus looking really good, not the Amberstar or Ambermoon looks bad, on the contrary, Ambermoon is one of most beautifully games on the Amiga, not to mention RPG games alone.
Ishar series was pretty playable on the standard A500 (even the last one Ishar III).

I voted RoA, for the technical overall excellency and most flourished and rich system flavor, but my heart lies on the Amber side (wonderful music and fond memories...).
Ps. And, paying system for saving games in the Ishar I - priceless warm tearlesslly...

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I should probably play RoA. Any advice/essential dos and don'ts for an absolute beginner? Nothing spoilery, but I don't want to fuck up my party/builds irreconcilably.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Well, party-fuckups are part of fun, no? Anyway, RoA has some fun (because not a grave fatal) "negative" perks, so choose wisely your team members phobias (like guys with the serious form of claustrophobia are not the best for the dungeon digging...

 

[eric__s]

Hmmm, they're more like archetypes than classes because any class can learn any skill (although class does determine what items a person can use and if a person can use magic, but anyone can eventually learn any spell). Class just determines what skills you start with. If I recall, there's no real difference between dwarfs, thorwalians and warriors except that thorwalians can't equip certain armors and dwarfs are like warriors + rogues. Elf characters are good because they're decent fighters and decent casters. When you're making an elf, auto-generate a sylvan elf and then switch archetypes to the elf you want, because sylvan elves have the highest pre-requisite stats. For casters, transversalis, foramen, fulmenictus, ignifaxus, lightning and balm of roond are the most important spells to have. It's also important for elf and witch casters to have the invisibility spell or the one that turns you into a dog or child. I think my party is usually a warrior, a dwarf, one of each type of elf and a movement magician.

Also, which RoA games came out on the Amiga? Was it just Blade of Destiny or were Star Trail and Shadows Over Riva on it too?

 

[SCO]

I should probably play RoA. Any advice/essential dos and don'ts for an absolute beginner? Nothing spoilery, but I don't want to fuck up my party/builds irreconcilably.

In the series, your worst enemy is disease and planning for exploration (food and water).
Although you can mitigate the second with some "extra-special" items you might (or not) find, the first is a constant.

A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. SO:
1. plates (not sure if for everyone) + a cooking pot
2. warm clothes in cold climate (mountain), reverse otherwise
3. Having 2 someones skilled in curing is a good idea, since they can't cure themselves
4. bedrolls & blankets are a must
5. people with forestry, climbing etc, should go into leader of the party as soon as you go into the right situation.
6. Collect all potions receipts you can, so a pen and a notebook are also a must.
7. two pairs of footwear per character for long journeys (they wear out). Walking without it is just much slower and begging for disease
8. disease spreads and turns into a chronic form (which is a pain, and can lead to permanent stat decreases IIRC). If you don't have the resources and are near a city with a medic/temple, go before it turns chronic)
9. Some things i probably forgot

As for the cure part; have a character with high forestry or herblore (or whatever they called it) search for herbs on each campsite (you can set up a schedule that you won't have to change until you find a random encounter, just press a button to continue.)

Magic items are not identified in any way (most look exactly the same). So to figure out if you should bother checking for a magical aura, you need to be on the lookout for the harder, preset fights.
After they "aura checked", in BoD they are not marked as "magical" too - mildly annoying.

Spell names are not self explanatory, a kind of pig-latin, so it's a good idea to have the manual handy to figure that out until you memorize them.
Transversallis is the most useful spell to make you not go insane in towns and dungeons (teleport to already explored parts).

The first fight against a "enemy type" gives exponentially more experience than subsquent ones. So it's to your advantage to avoid fights with those enemies until you find the most over the top encounter you can, 20*2000 is better than 2*2000 after all.

 

[empi]

Also, which RoA games came out on the Amiga? Was it just Blade of Destiny or were Star Trail and Shadows Over Riva on it too?

Just BoD iirc.
I'll add a few points of advice too. You'll want to cover most skills as a party, so specialising (a rogue type, a lore type etc.) is good. Some skills like climb, heal wounds are pretty good for everyone.
Attack is better to increase than parry.
Most of the negative attributes aren't too bad to have high, apart from suspicion (I think that's what it's called, the top one).
Dwarves/fighters/thorwalians are pretty similar, with fighters being stronger but unable to use the uber powerful poisons, and having less skill bonuses.
Make sure to keep notes, NPCs/dungeons give you clues etc.
In BoD you get a small exp penalty for saving outside temples, but it's nothing to worry about much.
If you want more spoilering, jaesede's done some pretty comprehensive posts in the past.

Enjoy

 

[CorpseZeb]

Also, which RoA games came out on the Amiga? Was it just Blade of Destiny or were Star Trail and Shadows Over Riva on it too?

Just BoD iirc.

Yup. RoA: BoD only.

 

[Wolfus]

I should probably play RoA. Any advice/essential dos and don'ts for an absolute beginner? Nothing spoilery, but I don't want to fuck up my party/builds irreconcilably.

In the series, your worst enemy is disease and planning for exploration (food and water).
Although you can mitigate the second with some "extra-special" items you might (or not) find, the first is a constant.

A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. SO:
1. plates (not sure if for everyone) + a cooking pot
2. warm clothes in cold climate (mountain), reverse otherwise
3. Having 2 someones skilled in curing is a good idea, since they can't cure themselves
4. bedrolls & blankets are a must
5. people with forestry, climbing etc, should go into leader of the party as soon as you go into the right situation.
6. Collect all potions receipts you can, so a pen and a notebook are also a must.
7. two pairs of footwear per character for long journeys (they wear out). Walking without it is just much slower and begging for disease
8. disease spreads and turns into a chronic form (which is a pain, and can lead to permanent stat decreases IIRC). If you don't have the resources and are near a city with a medic/temple, go before it turns chronic)
9. Some things i probably forgot

As for the cure part; have a character with high forestry or herblore (or whatever they called it) search for herbs on each campsite (you can set up a schedule that you won't have to change until you find a random encounter, just press a button to continue.)

Magic items are not identified in any way (most look exactly the same). So to figure out if you should bother checking for a magical aura, you need to be on the lookout for the harder, preset fights.
After they "aura checked", in BoD they are not marked as "magical" too - mildly annoying.

Spell names are not self explanatory, a kind of pig-latin, so it's a good idea to have the manual handy to figure that out until you memorize them.
Transversallis is the most useful spell to make you not go insane in towns and dungeons (teleport to already explored parts).

The first fight against a "enemy type" gives exponentially more experience than subsquent ones. So it's to your advantage to avoid fights with those enemies until you find the most over the top encounter you can, 20*2000 is better than 2*2000 after all.

This. Also buy keyring to store keys. Best thing is to create two green elves. One should focus on hunting and curing poisons, second on herbalism and curing diseases. Two warriors with healing wounds should keep the pary alive. My most trusted character combination is: 2x warrior, 2x green elf, mage (combat spell specialisation) and rogue (some people prefer dwarves, but my rogues were always good fighters with pointed weapons and they have definitely better social skills).