Polytheism in Fantasy RPGs

[ScottishMartialArts]

The parody of a Christian response to Oblivion got me thinking about one of my biggest pet peeves with regard to fantasy games: how religion is portrayed, and particularly polytheistic religion.

With very few exceptions, most of the fantasy universes in which RPGs, both computer and tabletop, are set have religions of many gods and goddesses, each controlling specific component of the natural world and human interaction. So far, so good. But then they go the asinine step of having worshipers pick a patron deity whose moral code they will adopt as their own. So you worship Chauntea because you're a farmer, and, in order to please her, you always metaphorically plant new seeds in your life, or whatever contrived shit makes up her ethical code. Great. But what happens when you can't get it up anymore? Your patron deity doesn't do shit when it comes to erections, so you're out of luck.

Why is fantasy religion always Christianity with a non-omnipotent god? Why do there need to moral teachings and fidelity to a single god/dess? We used to have multiple gods with specific, and limited powers. We called it Paganism. But paganism worked, where fantasy religion never would, because it didn't apply a Christian mindset to things and demand that you pick just one god out of many to be your patron. Fields infertile? Go see Ceres Fertilizer of Fields. Can't get it up? Go see Venus Erector of Phalluses. Just had a gigantic earthquake and hope that the aftershocks aren't as bad? Go see Neptune Shaker of the Earth. You were expected to do business with multiple gods because no one god is going to be able to help you with everything in your life! So why do fantasy games have multiple gods but then suggest that people should just pick one?

 

[Jasede]

Don't start from false premises. Polytheism in D&D, the Forgotten Realms:

A random inhabitant of Faerun wakes up in the morning, and praises his patron god Tyr. Then he asks Tymora for luck in the new day, Beshaba to keep the bad luck away. He prepares breakfast and thanks Chauntea for her bounty and before he leaves home he praises Lathander and Sune for the beauty of the new day.

He then goes to work in a shop in a nearby city. He asks Shaundakul for a safe trip, and a host of nature deities as the road goes through a forest. He arrives to town, where he visits the temple of Tyr for the daily prayers and to deposit a tithe, then goes to work. He prays to Waukeen for a good business day, and Helm to keep the thieves away.

At the end of the day, he leaves the shop and gives some alms to an Ilmateri priest that is asking for help to build a shelter for the poor and then goes to the Tyrran temple again for some more prayer.

Here we have a devout follower of Tyr

Also

Paganism worked

Rofl

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I'd like to see a game with a monotheist religion where the one God doesn't turn out to be the big bad. Then again, people would complain about there only being one true god (nevermind it's fiction, so reality can suck a dick) and shit would hit the fan

 

[Murk]

Yeah Jasede's quote is pretty much head-on. There are even examples of this in the alignment-raping Baldur's Gate games, like in BG2 where you team up with Keldorn (follower of Torm) on a quest given to you by Helmite priests. The quest specifically says "there is an ally of Helm" awaiting you in the sewers.

 

[Murk]

I'd like to see a game with a monotheist religion where the one God doesn't turn out to be the big bad. Then again, people would complain about there only being one true god (nevermind it's fiction, so reality can suck a dick) and shit would hit the fan

Though it didn't play a big role, there are a number of jRPGs in which this is the case, and in terms of Western games - Kult: Heretic Kingdoms had one god.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah, first: Fantasy != D&D. Fantasy is much much larger than D&D even though D&D hijacked all the ideas they could.
And secondly, unless you are a priest/cleric in D&D you're not restricted to worship one deity, per se. But you're right, monotheistic backrounds from authors and developers do tend to distort that rule.

What I'd like to see more of are fantasy settings without gods. I can only think of two books that never mention gods whether real, imagined, dead or "alive" (as far as I remember and noticed) within the setting and one of those is not anthropocentric.

 

[The Vanished One]

Morrowind had nice religions. The Tribunal temple that worships living gods (SPOILER: one is dead and one is evil), the imperial cult, the heretics, the secular vs. orthodox war... not very varied, but interesting.

 

[Waterd103]

Darksun setting has no goods.

i generally prefer no good or "not very powerfull gods". Generally level up buffed up chacters can beat gods. That power level of god is ok.

Anyway generally in games it doesn't piss me off that people pray too goods, since generally in the fantasy settings there is plenty real evidence that such god exist.

I think Gods in fantasy settings are used ok in general. I would like more games playing with the fact that you don't need to become so powerfull to bcome a god, maybe in some game once you reach level 50, you are considered a God between humans, or something.

 

[JarlFrank]

What I'm still waiting for is a fantasy setting with theology. Yeah, there are gods. But nobody seems to think about them. Everyone just knows "Well that god is good, that god is evil, that one likes steak for a meal and that one likes trees."
There aren't any different belief groups, everyone just believes the same and there is just one organized church for each god.

It would be interesting if there was a fantasy setting with gods that are less active and have not so clear personalities, so there would be different churches with different opinions, there'd be religious wars, and there might even be atheism. Maybe even a mix of polytheistic and monotheistic religions. This would have quite some potential.

 

[JarlFrank]

Paganism worked

Rofl

Yes it did.

 

[Mystary!]

Reminds me of somththin David Gaider said a while back. Link.

Spirituality is important in Thedas. You're going to see the influence of the Chantry everywhere, so when you talk about the importance of such concepts as Paradise and God and Heaven these things are all very much present.

The thing that you're going to find in DAO that you're not likely to find in your typical fantasy world is Faith. Faith is not possible in a world where the Divine is a proven quantity. If gods hand out spells and perform interventions and miracles on a daily basis, and there is no question at all as to their existence, then worshipping them is not Faith. They are not gods, they are just incredibly powerful entities that happen to influence the world.

If that is your brand of fantasy, then I have no problem with that. Some people probably like Forgotten Realms-style gods and divine magic and such. Here, the existence of the Maker is unproven -- and thus believing in Him requires Faith, just as in our own world. To equate that with a lack of power in that religion or in those beliefs is to ignore the role that Faith plays -- as I believe it is ignored in the Forgotten Realms-style worlds. To me, those religions lack power. They are generally just meaningless banners that players hang on their clerics providing them a few abilities and some basic principles to live by.

Is it what the game is all about? No, but it's definitely a central part of the world and its history, and I think it's something that most people will grasp intuitively. Not all fantasy tropes need to be rolled out automatically without consideration, and in this case the power of the Divine, in my opinion, does not need to be expressed by having holy power handed out directly to everyone who utters a prayer and gods walking around performing miracles that are hardly miraculous just by virtue of how very common they are. This is not the same as saying miracles don't exist at all.

Feel free to disagree with me if you like, but that's the thought behind what we're doing when it comes to this part of the world. It's possible that the root of your complaint is simply a desire for a D&D-style cleric class or bona fide "holy" abilities -- but if so I hope you see that the existence of such things conflicts with your own argument. A simplistic equation of the Divine with holy spells does not make it more "real".

 

[Jasede]

What I'm still waiting for is a fantasy setting with theology. Yeah, there are gods. But nobody seems to think about them. Everyone just knows "Well that god is good, that god is evil, that one likes steak for a meal and that one likes trees."
There aren't any different belief groups, everyone just believes the same and there is just one organized church for each god.

It would be interesting if there was a fantasy setting with gods that are less active and have not so clear personalities, so there would be different churches with different opinions, there'd be religious wars, and there might even be atheism. Maybe even a mix of polytheistic and monotheistic religions. This would have quite some potential.

Dungeons & Dragons have this. A lot of churches have different heretic sects that interpret their god and/or his dogma differently.

Take Ilmater, the Good god of suffering, and healing others by taking on their suffering upon yourselves. A sect & church of his is actually Chaotic Evil and believes that the best way to please Ilmater is to reduce suffering on Faerun - by killing as many that cause suffering as quickly as you can.

Then the Goddess Shar, of the night, has interesting sub-religions. She has a big secret cult devoted to her all over the land, but she also has assumed the role of many dead gods, so she has a non-evil church of cave-worshippers that follow a more peaceful dogma worshipping her, as well as a group of savage tribals that worship Dendar, the snake that will eat the world when awakened; and they do it differently than Shar is normally worshipped.

 

[Sckarecrow92]

A sect & church of his is actually Chaotic Evil and believes that the best way to please Ilmater is to reduce suffering on Faerun - by killing as many that cause suffering as quickly as you can.

That seems kind of paradoxical, unless they have a special interpretation of what suffering is.

 

[JarlFrank]

Nice. Never really read much about D&D settings so I don't know much about it. Seems interesting, though. Too bad most PC RPGs don't implement any of the moe interesting parts of the Forgotten Realms setting.

 

[Jasede]

A sect & church of his is actually Chaotic Evil and believes that the best way to please Ilmater is to reduce suffering on Faerun - by killing as many that cause suffering as quickly as you can.

That seems kind of paradoxical, unless they have a special interpretation of what suffering is.

That's the odd thing, really, since they are free to interpret the God's dogma as they wish - they can only tell if the God accepts their interpretation by seeing if their clerics still gain spells, which they only do if they're close enough in alignment and follow the dogma & their duties enough. But it's also up to the God's discretion too, so it gets very blurry. A few Good gods have evil worshippers that still gain spells, just because their evil works for a "greater good", according to that Good god. Or some good Gods don't give spells to certain sects of their faith for being "too evil", but they won't fight them either, since more worshippers = more power either way.

They're bastards.

 

[AzraelCC]

But isn't the Ilmater example problematic when translated into game terms, precisely because the gods are present in Faerun through the granting of spells? If a sect fails to live up to the gods' interpretation of that said gods' representation, then there can only be only one interpretation game-wise. Case in point, the said sect that promotes suffering may not gain spells if Ilmater doesn't believe in their cause. I guess the D&D concept of alignment plays a major part in this, since gods also have alignments.

I think Jarlfrank's explanation of gods being enveloped in mystery is interesting, I just don't see it happening in D&D terms because gods in Faerun (or any D&D setting for that matter) affect the "physical" world, hence they lose their mysticism. If the followers don't subscribe to the alignment of the god, no spells. Hence, no conflict of what is the correct theology, which I do think is interesting.

 

[deuxhero]

I'd like to see a fantasy religon with ambiguity as to the excistance/non-existance of the gods (I here Eberron does this) rather then inevitiblly have the characters directly interact with the gods.

 

[Squeek]

Steven Erikson has a hit fantasy-adventure series set in a world he originally conceived for a role-playing game, and I like how he handles the concept of gods. Each has its own unique story which often makes them a mystery, including to other gods and sometimes even to themselves.

His "Malazon Book of the Fallen" series is well worth reading if you've never checked it out.

 

[JarlFrank]

I think Jarlfrank's explanation of gods being enveloped in mystery is interesting, I just don't see it happening in D&D terms because gods in Faerun (or any D&D setting for that matter) affect the "physical" world, hence they lose their mysticism. If the followers don't subscribe to the alignment of the god, no spells. Hence, no conflict of what is the correct theology, which I do think is interesting.

Yeah, that's why I'd love a more indirect approach to gods. A bit more low-fantasy like. Gods exist, but except for occasionally answering a prayer they don't do much in the physical world. So there is no *real* confirmation for their existance. That makes it much more like a real religion which is centered around believe, unlike most fantasy religions where the gods show their existance all the time. If you see clear unmistakeable signs of the gods' existance, you cannot be an atheist. And you don't believe in a god. There is proof for their existance, there's no need to *believe*. You just choose to follow one of those gods, like you choose to follow an emperor.

Less direct contact of the gods with the earth would be good for adding some mystery and uncertainty to all of it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgehog]

Morrowind is a good example of what Jarlfrank wants and partially what the OP wants. On a base level there is a conflict between the Imperial (outsider) religion, the mainstream religion, and that of the ashlanders. There are mixed feelings and general ambiguity about the whole thing.

There is also more conflict internally between the religions. The Temple in Morrowind is itself very liberal and self sacrificing but the mainstream practice is typically racist and embodies slavery. The imperial cult is also good in intentions except it serves the imperial interests. The ashlanders are bloody fucking crazy and completely tied to their belief.

Different dieties, different religions, questioning of how far one should practice.

 

[AzraelCC]

I think Darklands does religion pretty well, with its accurate depiction of the mixture of pagan (the invocation of saints) and the monotheistic Christianity in Late Medieval Germany (or Europe, for that matter). The saints only have a chance of answering the prayers for the party to gain bonuses, or more interestingly, divine favors that fall outside combat. But then again, it is a quasi-historical rpg, so it had it's religious structure pretty much established. It's still a nice game in terms of handling religion, though. I'd love to see a similar structure in a full-blown fantasy world.

Another polytheistic structure I'd love to see is a more Eastern one. Ancestor worship would be nice, especially with the diplomatic options it could bring to the game. Animism is also interesting, with gods being forces of nature in themselves, or in some countries like Japan and parts of Southeast Asia, gods are tied to a place (river gods, mountain goddesses). I imagine something like the spirit incantations in the rogue-like Unreal World, where you usually have to try to recognize if there is a god residing in a place and make the necessary offering for safe passage. This in turn could be a more organic way of limiting exploration in an open-world rpg together with tough encounters. A place could be feared because the fickle god that resides there could do nasty things to your character/s.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Azrael - RE: animism - I couldn't agree more. SUPPOSEDLY turians in ME are animists, but heck if one saw that portrayed in the game world at all. Anyhow.

I wanted to make a designer blogpost the other day about a more "humanoid" conception of gods - actual eternal beings who have a kind of human sensibility (they eat, drink, screw, etc) but whose immortality have either made them wise and grave or gleeful don't-give-a-fucks. The latter I do find really interesting - read Native American myths of Coyote and African myths about Ananzi. They're both horndogs, incorrigible, both clever and totally dumb, at times benevolent and at others entirely willing to fuck someone over for a good laugh. How do you even worship a god like that? What if they actually showed up - and then got to thinking you owed them?

(Sorry, been thinking about Coyote lately also because I finished Christopher Moore's Coyote Blue, and it's awesome, and you should read it)

One thing I have always wanted is a pantheon of gods that may embody certain aspects, but whose motives and alignments and such are vague at best.

I did also like the vagaries of gods, which isn't really apparent much in the FR universe, yes, but as has been said elsewhere in this thread, there are some interesting loopholes in how things are set up. Deity strength is directly tied to worshippers, so when the number drops to 0, that god = POOF. However, there's an interesting question there - does that work both ways? If a god gets "killed" but still has devoted worshippers, do they retain some semblance of life and strength?

So - in FR canon, yes, Leira, the goddess of liars, is dead, and Cyric nabbed her portfolio. But this is the goddess of LIARS and TRICKSTERS and ILLUSIONS! Couldn't that be a trick? How do you convince the worshippers of a goddess like that - how do you really get them to see she's gone? And how you really know for sure that she IS? Technically you can even worship dead gods in FR... if that's the case, where the fuck is that power coming from? And when you throw in the fact that so many FR gods were once human, and some came from other universes (which I think is kind of 'tarded but it does throw a curious wrench into the works), it makes the question of "what is DEATH for gods?" a bigger and weirder question.

And if you're the average Faerunian, maybe the gods even walked the earth in your memory - sure you know they exist, but maybe instead it's convinced you that they're not much better than you are. They have spats and kill each other, and some come from weird places, and if they're at war with one another - why get involved? If mortals are part of the cycle of keeping gods alive, and their "belief" powers that cycle, well YEAH you've got something like the Wall in place.

Anyhow. That's an FR rant for you. Me, I would like to see 1) vague gods, and 2) realy trickster gods, and 3) animism, because the concept of minor deities hanging out everywhere is kinda neat.

 

[Zomg]

Turians are overenunciationists

 

[SCO]

Everything Christopher Moore writes is awesome, except possibly "You suck".

 

[AzraelCC]

That's an FR rant for you. Me, I would like to see 1) vague gods, and 2) realy trickster gods, and 3) animism, because the concept of minor deities hanging out everywhere is kinda neat.

I also like Ananzi and trickster gods. Coyote sounds interesting, I might read up on that.

I guess all of these gods you mentioned represent an anti-thesis of what gods are in gaming: forces of order. You get bonuses, spells and other "blessings" if you follow their "teachings." In game terms, this seems to be an added layer of a "class." However, one concept that is rarely explored, but is actually the true nature of polytheism, is that the early gods were really forces of chaos. That's why they deemed powerful--they were entities man could not control but had to deal with. D&D and its view of polytheism has been mixed with the monotheistic, ordered god.

But I think chaotic gods have a place in gaming. What better way to provide a challenge to one's ability to adapt than dealing with entities of randomness?