Interview Project Eternity Interview @ Irontower

[Kane]

This is why I call Josh Sawyer's approach "gamist" - his idea is to manipulate the game's design to accomodate the ways in which players actually play these types of games in practice, as opposed to creating a more "idealistic" system and then hoping that people play it in the correct, non-cheesy way.

The problem here is that health-regeneration - and all other systems that worktowards this "gamist" approach really - also introduce new ways to play in "incorrect and cheesy" ways. Let's face is, exploiting a game's mechanics has always been a thing. The real question is how you can make a "hardcore" game without it feeling cheap while you play it.

I don't understand Sawyer on this issue.

Neither do I, and it's exactly that stance that turned GW2 into garbage. Why do developers think that there's something inherently wrong with an ordered setup of game pieces? It has been working well for thousands of years in chess and other table games and so it caried over to cRPGs quite naturally, what with early TPGs esentially presenting you a game of chess with pieces that can do more than one thing.
What developers try here is desperately looking for something new that is also better, when there most likely isn't, because if there was, it would already have been invited. Anyway, let them experiment.

 

[Infinitron]

The problem here is that health-regeneration - and all other systems that worktowards this "gamist" approach really - also introduce new ways to play in "incorrect and cheesy" ways.

How so?

The main selling point of health regen has been that it allows designers to make each encounter self-contained and thus as difficult as possible. (of course, in practice, they never do that, because it would result in shitty pacing and more importantly the rest of the game tends to be dumbed down for console audiences anyway)

In this case though, where you have both regenerating stamina and non-regenerating health, there's a much better chance of doing it properly. They can make fights VERY difficult (but beatable) if you have full stamina but low health. If you've played well enough to preserve your health, they'll be less difficult.

 

[Kane]

The problem here is that health-regeneration - and all other systems that worktowards this "gamist" approach really - also introduce new ways to play in "incorrect and cheesy" ways.

How so?

The main selling point of health regen has been that it allows designers to make each encounter self-contained and thus as difficult as possible. (of course, in practice, they never do that, because it would result in shitty pacing and more importantly the rest of the game tends to be dumbed down for console audiences anyway)

In this case though, where you have both regenerating stamina and non-regenerating health, there's a much better chance of doing it properly. They can make fights VERY difficult (but beatable) if you have full stamina but low health. If you've played well enough to preserve your health, they'll be less difficult.

I obviously can't comment on how that shit will pan out since the game isn't out yet. All I know for now is that there will be health-regen and health-regen has been pretty much proven to be shit by now. Maybe encounter design will be inherently "better" because of this system in place? Maybe a good encounter still depends on the developer designing that encounter and not on some artificial game system? Maybe it's a combination of the two?

 

[Infinitron]

I obviously can't comment on how that shit will pan out since the game isn't out yet. All I know for now is that there will be health-regen and health-regen has been pretty much proven to be shit by now.

It wasn't so bad in Betrayal at Krondor (in before Shrek)

 

[Kane]

I obviously can't comment on how that shit will pan out since the game isn't out yet. All I know for now is that there will be health-regen and health-regen has been pretty much proven to be shit by now.

It wasn't so bad in Betrayal at Krondor (in before Shrek)

Meh, the mechanics in BaK are rather poor, what made BaK so good is its presentation and the way the narrative is conveyed.

 

[Infinitron]

Bottom line, Sawyer thinks he can create a design that accommodates the ways in which players play, without severely decreasing the game's difficulty. He sees things like frequent reloading, frequent resting and frequent backtracking as "degenerate", evidence of a flawed design, because when those things happen it means the player has hit a kind of wall.

I don't deny that he might be wrong - his approach could lead to an overly streamlined gameplay experience, that flows by too quickly and painlessly and ends up feeling boring and unsatisfying. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Gozma]

He should have name-dropped Darklands for the health/stamina split for KKKredits. The way he described it is exactly how Darklands does it.

 

[hiver]

Is that bad? Am i supposed to not get any experience if i found another solution to a problem?
And whats then wrong with fighters getting rewards from combat and some specific kills? Thats what fighters do.

Why would I take the diplomatic solution if combat yields me the same experience PLUS experience for kills?

and who says it will yield the same XP or that you can have both?

No, he said that there will be ways of getting good loot besides strictly combat.

In other words, if I use diplomacy, I get the loot from the chests, if I don't, I get loot from chests AND dead bodies.

I kinda have a feeling that between Sawyer and ...ahem... Tim Cain, there might be a slight chance they kinda understand that angle?
And - i didnt see anyone mentioning chests and killing then looting the chests too... really.

Where is it that I'm not expressing myself clearly? I'm not saying not rewarding combat is good, I'm saying that rewarding combat more than the diplomatic solution will of course make me pick combat.

Who said they will reward combat more when he clearly states what i quoted about giving xp for Tim and I would both like to use an experience system that relies heavily (if not wholly) on quest, objective (i.e. steps within a quest), and challenge (e.g. exploration rewards) rewards.

Example:
Combat = Get experience from kills. Gain loot from bodies.
Diplomatic solution = get bonus experience equal to the amount you would have gained by killing. Gain some sort of alternative loot but gain no loot from bodies.

Arent you just making assumptions on specifics and how it will be actually designed and executed ?

I suppose you can answer with: " Well, if thats not it i dont see how its supposed to work." - but that isnt helping much.
And you have to at least agree he didnt even mention any specifics about that.

He is talking about a general plan he and Cain have for these things, and it seems they are at the helm in that area.
As far as general plans go it just sounds great and ambitious.
And right on the money besides.

Thats why some of us are saying: "gee if they can pull that off - this will be great stuff."

 

[Jasede]

There is no health-regen, what are you talking about?
We've already established health will be hard to restore and every attack damages health.

I'm not sure where you read otherwise.

I know there's a stamina-shield component but why does it matter?

It doesn't matter if I can shield some HP loss with my regenerating stamina when reckless play still steadily diminishes my unrestorable HP because I get hit all the time, or even once. It has the potential to be the best of both worlds.

 

[Grunker]

The fact that you have never seen a black swan does not mean the black swan is not there. Incidentally, when you've heard 50 eye-witness accounts of the existence of black swans, perhaps you should consider the fact that they might very well exist.

Meh, hiver, incidentally, I hope you're right. Let's wait and see.

Jasede: The stamina/health mechanic is comparable to DA's health regen, if you substitute P:E's "stamina" with DA's "HP" (both regen quickly after combat) and P:E's "health" with DA's "injury" (both are permanent until rest or heal). As such, of course P:E has health-regen. That they call their HP stamina isn't of consequence when dicussing the actual mechanics.

Only difference is that DA's injuries were a bit more enticing than just a static number (because they had different effects) and ultimately didn't matter because you had injury kits in spades. But then we have no idea how easy it will be to heal HP damage in P:E.

 

[Infinitron]

He should have name-dropped Darklands for the health/stamina split for KKKredits. The way he described it is exactly how Darklands does it.

He has in the past.

 

[Jasede]

The fact that you have never seen a black swan does not mean the black swan is not there. Incidentally, when you've heard 50 eye-witness accounts of the existence of black swans, perhaps you should consider the fact that they might very well exist.

Meh, hiver, incidentally, I hope you're right. Let's wait and see.

Jasede: The stamina/health mechanic is comparable to DA's health regen, if you substitute P:E's "stamina" with DA's "HP" (both regen quickly after combat) and P:E's "health" with DA's "injury" (both are permanent until rest or heal). As such, of course P:E has health-regen. That they call their HP stamina isn't of consequence when dicussing the actual mechanics.

Only difference is that DA's injuries were a bit more enticing than just a static number (because they had different effects) and ultimately didn't matter because you had injury kits in spades. But then we have no idea how easy it will be to heal HP damage in P:E.

So you admit it'd be a different thing altogether if there were no injury kits and getting, say, five was fatal.
Hopefully Obsidian has us covered there.

Also why did you play Dragon's Age? You are the decline. =/

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker But if you have low health in PE, you will die quickly regardless of how much stamina you have, because each hit reduces both stamina and health. Stamina doesn't shield health.

Is it really "health regen" if it can't save you from insta-death?

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer's work I haven't really seen before (never played IWD/FONV) but after reading that interview I'm psyched.

Sawyer did IWDII not IWD.

He was a junior designer on IWD. He was responsible for Dragon's Eye, Lower Dorn's Deep, and maybe a few others. I think I saw this in a video interview since I never saved the source.

hoping that people play it in the correct, non-cheesy way.

If your game requires people to play it "correctly" then it fails.

 

[hiver]

The fact that you have never seen a black swan does not mean the black swan is not there. Incidentally, when you've heard 50 eye-witness accounts of the existence of black swans, perhaps you should consider the fact that they might very well exist.

hmmm... i definitely need to change plausibility for paranoia or just add it to the letter P in rpgcodex. hmm... Paranoia as an attribute but move plausibility into skills - oh yes.
- and then add black swans or bats in there... hmm... oh yes, as traits.

Meh, hiver, incidentally, I hope you're right. Let's wait and see.

yup.

btw, i didnt mean that about coffee and weather in any condescending manner.
human good - coffee good, coffee bad - human smash.

 

[Grunker]

I don't understand Sawyer on this issue.

That's because he's talking out of his ass. BG2 was the definition of combat without a single solution to everything. I strongly recall how surprised I was when I first came to internet forums to discover how very differently people had "solved" the different encounters of BG2 compared to myself.

 

[Grunker]

btw, i didnt mean that about coffee and weather in any condescending manner.

I honestly didn't read that part too thouroughly so you can take comfort in the fact that I didn't understand it well enough to be offended

 

[Kane]

He should have name-dropped Darklands for the health/stamina split for KKKredits. The way he described it is exactly how Darklands does it.

Another game I have yet to play. ...about best Germany!

 

[Grunker]

Grunker But if you have low health in PE, you will die quickly regardless of how much stamina you have, because each hit reduces both stamina and health. Stamina doesn't shield health.

Is it really "health regen" if it can't save you from insta-death?

Good point, that makes my comparison weaker, though it strongly depends in how available "healing kits" are. If it's anything like injury kits in DA the difference is moot.

 

[Roguey]

That's because he's talking out of his ass. BG2 was the definition of combat without a single solution to everything. I strongly recall how surprised I was when I first came to internet forums to discover how very differently people had "solved" the different encounters of BG2 compared to myself.

For the mage fights I just used breach. Then later on I used the higher-tier spell-dispellers like the warding whip and the ray of reversal and so on. Sounds accurate in my case.

And as I understand healing health is done solely through resting. No potions.

 

[Grunker]

The fact that you have never seen a black swan does not mean the black swan is not there. Incidentally, when you've heard 50 eye-witness accounts of the existence of black swans, perhaps you should consider the fact that they might very well exist.

Meh, hiver, incidentally, I hope you're right. Let's wait and see.

Jasede: The stamina/health mechanic is comparable to DA's health regen, if you substitute P:E's "stamina" with DA's "HP" (both regen quickly after combat) and P:E's "health" with DA's "injury" (both are permanent until rest or heal). As such, of course P:E has health-regen. That they call their HP stamina isn't of consequence when dicussing the actual mechanics.

Only difference is that DA's injuries were a bit more enticing than just a static number (because they had different effects) and ultimately didn't matter because you had injury kits in spades. But then we have no idea how easy it will be to heal HP damage in P:E.

So you admit it'd be a different thing altogether if there were no injury kits and getting, say, five was fatal.
Hopefully Obsidian has us covered there.

I don't "admit" it, but I certainly agree. Dragon Age would have been much better if injury kits were rare. It would have made their health system great. So yeah, as I point out to Infinitron, I see potential in P:E's health mechanics.

Also why did you play Dragon's Age? You are the decline. =/

It's a very good game, you should play it. If you have any interest in P:E, you'd likely enjoy it. P:E is shaping up to be somewhat of a combination between the IE games and DA in my opinion.

And as I understand healing health is done solely through resting. No potions.

It was my impression that magic could heal? I remember reading it in the interview Vince did, but perhaps I recall incorrectly. I'm too lazy to check.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker But if you have low health in PE, you will die quickly regardless of how much stamina you have, because each hit reduces both stamina and health. Stamina doesn't shield health.

Is it really "health regen" if it can't save you from insta-death?

Good point, that makes my comparison weaker, though it strongly depends in how available "healing kits" are. If it's anything like injury kits in DA the difference is moot.

Well, Sawyer has intimated that gaining health will be a non-trivial affair. No health healing spells, and I assume resting will be very limited as well.

 

[Roguey]

It was my impression that magic could heal? I remember reading it in the interview Vince did, but perhaps I recall incorrectly. I'm too lazy to check.

There's magic that restores stamina, there is no magic that restores health.

 

[Grunker]

Ah, then that's where I went wrong. Thanks.

In that case, it still similar to DA's system, but the whole game basically changes with a lack of "injury kits."

To build on this (in my opinion promising) system, I'd wish that it was a bit more like DA/Drakensang though. For each 1/4 or 1/5 of health you lose you get some kind of injury/penalty.

 

[GordonHalfman]

I don't understand Sawyer on this issue.

That's because he's talking out of his ass. BG2 was the definition of combat without a single solution to everything. I strongly recall how surprised I was when I first came to internet forums to discover how very differently people had "solved" the different encounters of BG2 compared to myself.

Exactly, there's only one way to beat the game.. yet people have done solo iron man runs with a Skald. Right.

BG2 does have some things with specific counters, but they don't make the game trivial and figuring them out is part of exploring the system.

Like say Adamantium Golems. The best way to kill them is to retreat to a narrow opening and use Tasherons bow. Which would be an issue if you had to fight one every five minutes, but I think there are like three in the whole. And what if you're playing a solo wizard who can't use the bow? The you can use lower resistance and magic missile. Or summon a bunch of mordenkainens swords. Or turn into a mindflayer and use intelligence drain for style points (I think this works.)

Or what about Vampires, for them you need negative plane protection and maybe some kind of charm immunity. And again if you don't have them there are other options, you can screen your party with some animate dead summons. You can get a dispel ready to remove the first wave of domination, you can tank the vampires with wizard combat protections etc. Or you can use invisibility to avoid them altogether.