Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #56: Paladins and Wild Orlans

[Infinitron]

Who gives a shit about Obsidian's slight variations on tired fantasy tropes?

What I've seen in stereotypical FR-like high fantasy settings is that they often feature different races that intermingle freely, yet with very little explanation of the wider sociological ramifications of that.

Then you have the grimdark ones (Witcher, Dragon Age) with non-humans as ghettoized proles. That also seems to be want Kron wants, basically.

Obsidian's trying to make a setting where the classical "intermingling of races" model can work, but one where it also makes sense.

Elder Scrolls shitty lore?

Sup DraQ

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron: I've played P&P for almost 15 years. I've seen so many variations on Forgotten Realms I could build an airplane with the pages I read. Obisidian's variation so far isn't more or less banal or different than most of them. The setting is a sloppy, playing-it-safe part of this game. Please don't do the same as retarded fantasy fans who points out six or seven details that don't matter in the wider scope of things and claims Obsidian's setting is totally awesome and new because their elves have smaller ears or some shit like that.

 

[villain of the story]

Judging from how Wild Orlans look, urban Orlans (or was it "Hearth"?) look like they are Uncle Toms trying to look like their human masters.

Also, enough with retared oversized ears. Does it have to be THAT fucking big? Goddamn.

Hoping that there will be necessary options during character creation to designate what your paladin's conviction is. And options in the game to evolve those convictions as well.

 

[AN4RCHID]

The thing about these ridiculous high fantasy races is that they are rarely dealt with in a believable way:
Let us imagine; if one of these was seen as a freak by humans, and hanged, skinned and alienated from their societies, and they in turn, despise humans for being intolerant, but at the same time being just as cruel and racist, I would agree with their inclusion, because it would tie into a real-feeling medieval world.
What Obsidian will probably do, as it is always done, is put them there to fill a certain role in a party, or to create a sense of "diversity" within their world.

When given the oportunity to create a world from scratch, Obsidian has redone every fucking fantasy race cliche.

This is how Sawyer has described Orlans since the beginning. Did you read the update? Orlans are seen as subhuman, sold as slaves and generally oppressed. In turn, Orlans hate the other races. Basically exactly what you just said.

 

[Infinitron]

Please don't do the same as retarded fantasy fans who points out six or seven details that don't matter in the wider scope of things and claims Obsidian's setting is totally awesome and new because their elves have smaller ears or some shit like that.

I'm not saying the setting is totally awesome, but how many fantasy settings have you seen that take something like interracial infertility to its logical conclusion? That's a bit more than "ears".

You know how in NWN2 you can be any race? That's cool and everything, but what the fuck is a svirfneblin or a drow doing in West Harbor?

So rather than dump that concept, why not make it work instead?

 

[Roguey]

Why did Josh stop doing video updates? Does he feel fat?

Video updates take up time and I think they're busy trying to make it presentable for Rezzed.

 

[Grunker]

Please don't do the same as retarded fantasy fans who points out six or seven details that don't matter in the wider scope of things and claims Obsidian's setting is totally awesome and new because their elves have smaller ears or some shit like that.

I'm not saying the setting is totally awesome, but how many fantasy settings have you seen that take something like interracial infertility to its logical conclusion? That's a bit more than "ears".

No it's not. It's a slight and insignificant variation. Don't tell me infertility changes the setting fundamentally bro, you're way off track.

There's nothing wrong with a banalshitboring setting to play it safe and focus on story. But that's what it is. No infertility rate is going to change that.

 

[Infinitron]

No it's not. It's a slight and insignificant variation. Don't tale me infertility changes the setting fundamentally bro, you're way off track.

What would you say is a fundamental change to a high fantasy setting? (In before Arcanum Shadowrun)

 

[villain of the story]

Getting rid of all nonhuman races.

 

[Kron]

This is how Sawyer has described Orlans since the beginning. Did you read the update? Orlans are seen as subhuman, sold as slaves and generally oppressed. In turn, Orlans hate the other races. Basically exactly what you just said.

Sawyer is the typical designer who talks and talks and theorizes too much. But what is the final result?
The shitty looking Caesar's Legion from F:NV?
The hipster characters from Alpha Protocol?

 

[Grunker]

No it's not. It's a slight and insignificant variation. Don't tale me infertility changes the setting fundamentally bro, you're way off track.

What would you say is a fundamental change to a high fantasy setting? (In before Arcanum Shadowrun)

Codex Rabbi asks that you reply to his question first. Do you really think infertility makes this setting so fundamentally different the setting becomes interesting in places where Forgotten Realms isn't?

Besides that, Arcanum and Shadowrun are banal settings, but they're pretty different from run-of-the-mill high fantasy. What makes you think writing "inb4" invalidates that? The Witcher is high fantasy, and so is ASOIF in the later books. They're also fundamentally different. Dark Sun is another example. Discworld. Magic: The Gathering. Planescape. Exalted.

You may claim these settings are banalshitboring or not as you like, but they're all fundamentally different that the standard high fantasy setting. Obsidian's is not. It's just different names and unimportant details. The point of these recognizable settings is that players already know the rules and cultures before reading anything. Obsidian said that's why they use high fantasy many times. That makes it selfexplanatory why the setting doesn't deviate much.

Again, nothing wrong with this. Could just have used FR if they could as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Infinitron]

Getting rid of all nonhuman races.

Yeah, don't worry, after Game of Thrones you're going to get more of those than you know what to do with

Codex Rabbi asks that you reply to his question first. Do you really think infertility makes this setting so fundamentally different the setting becomes interesting in places where Forgotten Realms isn't?

It's not the infertility, it's the sociological result of said infertility:

Aedyran humans and elves remain physiologically distinct because they cannot reproduce. However, their cultures have become so intermingled that they had to develop legal concepts to deal with what are effectively culturally-accepted concubines (human-elf and elf-human), haemneg. The Aedyran imperial family is an oddly-tangled union of a reigning human emperor or empress with a secondary set of powers controlled by an elven concubine.

This is interesting. And remember, this is just an early preview of the Project Eternity setting.

The hipster characters from Alpha Protocol?

Not made by Sawyer FYI

 

[AN4RCHID]

This is how Sawyer has described Orlans since the beginning. Did you read the update? Orlans are seen as subhuman, sold as slaves and generally oppressed. In turn, Orlans hate the other races. Basically exactly what you just said.

Sawyer is the typical designer who talks and talks and theorizes too much. But what is the final result?
The shitty looking Caesar's Legion from F:NV?
The hipster characters from Alpha Protocol?

He didn't do character design in Alpha Protocol, New Vegas, or ever as far as I know. The results of his game design are the vastly improved Fallout: New Vegas, and I guess the Icewind Dale games, though I don't think those are representative of his current design philosophy. The proof will be in the PE pudding, since this is his big chance to design a system from the ground up.

Caesar's Legion was fucking awesome, who cares what they looked like? If we get antagonists that good in PE, my pledge will be worth it.

 

[tuluse]

Grunker is there a specific reason that high fantasy has to be banal shit boring? It's all about the details I think. Obsidian can use all the familiar tropes of fantasy, but if they're integrated in a good way, the setting can be interesting.

I think "is PE different from high fantasy" is the wrong question, the right question is "is it good high fantasy?"

 

[Infinitron]

To clarify, I'm perfectly fine with people who don't like traditional high fantasy, but my opinion is that rather than giving up and saying that "a multi-racial fantasy setting is NEVER believable, non-human races must be genocided or removed to make the setting plausible", why not try to make that model work instead?

You have a game where the player can select any race on chargen. That's your design goal. How do you make that work? What kind of setting do you make? These are interesting questions.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, don't worry, after Game of Thrones you're going to get more of those than you know what to do with

ASOIAF has elves.

It's not the infertility, it's the sociological result of said infertility:

Aedyran humans and elves remain physiologically distinct because they cannot reproduce. However, their cultures have become so intermingled that they had to develop legal concepts to deal with what are effectively culturally-accepted concubines (human-elf and elf-human), haemneg. The Aedyran imperial family is an oddly-tangled union of a reigning human emperor or empress with a secondary set of powers controlled by an elven concubine.​

This is interesting. And remember, this is just an early preview of the Project Eternity setting.

You're deluded. You just claimed no half-elves + elvish whores is an interesting and exciting new angle on high fantasy. You been living in a cottage in the woods?

Grunker is there a specific reason that high fantasy has to be banal shit boring? It's all about the details I think. Obsidian can use all the familiar tropes of fantasy, but if they're integrated in a good way, the setting can be interesting.

I think "is PE different from high fantasy" is the wrong question, the right question is "is it good high fantasy?"

Do you know any other genre where every setting is an almost carbon copy of the next one?

High Fantasy doesn't have to be banal shit boring, I listed a bunch that weren't. I'm talking about standard, trope-filled ones like P:E's. See my sixteen posts saying there's nothing wrong with that.

I think "is PE different from high fantasy" is the wrong question, the right question is "is it good high fantasy?"

I think you're missing the point.

 

[Infinitron]

You're deluded. You just claimed no half-elves + elvish whores is an interesting and exciting new angle on high fantasy.

I said it's interesting, not "exciting".

You been living in a cottage in the woods?

No, but I have been living in the Middle East. I don't know, maybe Scandinavians see elves frolicking in the forests every day so that stuff is kinda boring to you.

Anyway, that's not the point. I don't care what people find boring, but I disagree with "this type of setting can never be believable/plausible and is therefore always shit". That's what started this conversation thread.

ASOIAF has elves.

The people watching the show don't know that yet.

 

[Grunker]

I said it's interesting, not "exciting".

Simply a bit "interesting" is not nearly enough to justify your argument that P:E is different and therefore worthy of note compared to other standard high fantasy settings.

No, but I have been living in the Middle East. I don't know, maybe Scandinavians see elves frolicking in the forests every day so that stuff is kinda boring to you.

I've been to Israel multiple times. You're not lacking in places where one can buy high fantasy bullshit.

Anyway, that's not the point. I don't care what people find boring, but I disagree with "this type of setting can never be believable/plausible and is therefore always shit".

We're at the strawmen now?

Remind me where I said something had to be plausible to not be shit? I fucking even wrote that there was nothing wrong with standard high fantasy, and I gave reasons. Our argument is whether P:E is interesting and different compared to other settings. And it fucking isn't.

The people watching the show don't know that yet.

Doesn't matter much. The point is the setting manages to be severely different despite being high fantasy.

 

[Infinitron]

Remind me where I said something had to be plausible to not be shit?

You didn't. Kron did.

 

[Kirtai]

The lack of crossbreeding could make for some interesting variations in the politics of the area. e.g. the idea of dynastic alliances is somewhat more fraught with problems.

 

[Grunker]

Remind me where I said something had to be plausible to not be shit?

You didn't. Kron did.

I wasn't aware I was defending any of Kron's arguments. I started an argument with you based on your comments.

 

[OSK]

Infinitron: I've played P&P for almost 15 years. I've seen so many variations on Forgotten Realms I could build an airplane with the pages I read.

 

[tuluse]

Do you know any other genre where every setting is an almost carbon copy of the next one?

Well, I think you're practically defining the genre by it's setting, so you're setting it up to fail. There are a lot of books that have magic which aren't similar in setting to LotR, but then they aren't "high fantasy".

High Fantasy doesn't have to be banal shit boring, I listed a bunch that weren't. I'm talking about standard, trope-filled ones like P:E's. See my sixteen posts saying there's nothing wrong with that.

I once read a forward from a sci-fi writer from the 50s describing the conditions for a story he once wrote. I can't remember the specifics, so I'll be just delivering the general ideas. It was a short story for a sci-fi magazine at the time, his editor told him about it. There was a list of specific things he had to include in the story stuff like "it has to be on another planet", "there has to be a robot", just kind of random requirements they had. Then he wrote that he gets asked a lot if he dislikes all these seemingly restrictive requirements. His response was that there is an infinite amount of stories to be told, so any subset of stories would also be infinite, and that a good writer could create something good no matter the restrictions.

So I don't think having Elves, dwarves, and furry-hobbits will cause PE's setting to suck. I think setting it on a continent that is a "new world" being colonized is going to add a degree of interest. I also think that Sawyer's attention to detail and knowledge of history is going to make the world feel much more realistic than is common to fantasy.

I think you're missing the point.

I'm sure that I am.

 

[Kron]

I don't really think it is a matter of realism or plausibility for the sake of it.
Attacking the tendency of high fantasy games of adding the same generic cosmetic races revolves around the so often lost chance of introducing themes which make up the very nature of human kind. Fantasy games generally are incredibly shallow as to asking "how the hell would a man in that age feel about X thing".
Same goes for the sci-fi genre, which is just as shallow.
The potential of introducing cruel-but humane elements that man has truly done (crucifixions, martyrdoms, holy wars, ransacking, iron maidens, inquisitions, genocides), I think is too great to fathom. Treating these apropiately is another big task.
Inquisitor is perhaps a pale game to expose this; terribly flawed, but with some themes not too explored.
Dragon Age is a really bad example by the way, the very epitome of trying too hard to be grimdark.

 

[Lancehead]

unimportant details.

I think you're jumping the gun here. The details of the setting (the backstory, the lore) would only be unimportant if they exist separate from the game, and that holds true even if the lore is fundamentally different from traditional high fantasy. PS:T has plenty of interesting lore to read (like the history of Sigil, the Lady of Pain, the Blood War), especially if you're a newcomer to the setting like I was when I first played the game, but almost all of it has nothing to do what happens on the game, i.e. the story. This diminishes the value of the lore, the setting and consequently the game itself, as you replay it.

The lore of PE would be interesting and would strengthen the game and the setting if those details are actually used in the game's story. No half-elves can be a boring detail, but not when it's actually used (maybe as a questline) with all its supposed ramifications.

That is actually the big strength of Elder Scrolls pre-Oblivion. There's plenty of lore and it explored within the game, the backstory and story are intertwined. If PE manages to do that in some capacity, then the seemingly unimportant details turn out to make the setting interesting.