Raider Sadist Armor? Seriously?

[Naked Ninja]

Can't, he's busy with your mom at the moment.

 

[Claw]

The repair system sounds fine to me. In a PA setting you would fix broken items by scavenging the unbroken parts from other similar items.

Yeah, but Bethesda turned Reductio ad absurdum into a design philosophy.

You know, now that I think about it.. If I could turn a rifle into "rifle parts" and then use these "rRifle parts" to repair a rifle... I would find that more acceptable. But to work properly, it would have to be a bit more complex (than ITEM_41 -> ITEM_PARTS_41 -> Repair ITEM_41) with some overlap and restrictions; you wouldn't be able to repair every item in the exact same way and need some special tools.

 

[Naked Ninja]

So the only thing keeping it from being acceptable is an unnecessary step where you muck about with your inventory? Why? seriously, how much of a mental leap is this concept? To imagine that using one rifle to fix another implies taking bits from one and using them to fix the other? Or is it the sheer love of extra mouse clicking?

My jedi mindpowahs are telling me this is just another case of Codex-Hates-Anything-Bethesda nitpicking.

 

[Claw]

I'll rephrase it for easier reading:

I would be accemptable if it were just a bit more complex (than ITEM+ITEM = Repaired ITEM) with some overlap and restrictions; you wouldn't be able to repair every item in the exact same way and need some special tools.

Think of this like a ramp for wheelchairs.

My jedi mindpowahs are telling me this is just another case of Codex-Hates-Anything-Bethesda nitpicking.

Yes, you are delusional.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The repair system sounds fine to me. In a PA setting you would fix broken items by scavenging the unbroken parts from other similar items.

Sure. However, there is a difference between taking items apart and using best parts, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly style, and stacking items.

So the only thing keeping it from being acceptable is an unnecessary step where you muck about with your inventory?

How about a combat system where you click on enemies and they die? How awesome would that be? What? The actual mechanics? Come on, don't be a fag. Do we really need this step where you are actually hitting enemies and taking damage? Can't we just imagine it?

To imagine...

The foundation of Bethesda design.

 

[Naked Ninja]

However, there is a difference between taking items apart and using best parts, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly style, and stacking items.

You mean taking bits from the various items and combining them into one working item? Or are you implying that the gui interface mechanic ( ie adding one slot to the other in a kind of stack) is representative of what the guy is doing in real life? Do I get to see a little animation of him building a small stack of guns and then POOF! new shiny gun?

Come now. I don't care how it feels in the interface, I can grasp that it means I'm combining parts in the same way that dragging a weapon from my pack to my paper doll is an abstract representation of my char fiddling around in his pack and whipping out a gun/sword/attack badger.

It's not a different mechanic, it's an abstraction. And a perfectly acceptable one.

How about a combat system where you click on enemies and they die?

How about a banana fudge milkshake? It makes as much sense as that comparison.

Seriously, are you implying that removing the intermediate gui step of Item->parts->add parts to item is somehow equivalent to combining all the combat mechanics in an RPG into a single click?

Don't exaggerate.

The actual mechanics?

Oh please. Repair mechanics? Clicking is a gameplay mechanic now? In all the polls on repairing conducted, people, even here, mostly dislike it as a tedious chore. But hey, detailing it down to the finest levels adds to the fun! No. It's just going to make it more fiddly and annoying for many.

Abstract it out, let your repair skill determine which items you can repair with a behind the scenes check. Most people aren't actually looking for a "workbench-simulator minigame" where you have to keep track of nails and springs collected.

To imagine...

The foundation of Bethesda design.

A bit much, perhaps? It's alright for some mechanics to be abstracted out man. ALL games have abstractions. This isn't always a crime against humanity.

 

[Unradscorpion]

If BIS had made FO3 it would have been exactly like this and you know it.

Only we would like it.
hAY GAYS, I CAN TROLL TOO!!

 

[BethesdaLove]

Ninja man, why are you defending Bethesda? I mean, you are an indie dev, as far as I can tell, right?
Your target audience is, hmm how to describe it, more or less intelligent (but greedy and self-righteous or choosy), right?
Where is the elitist spirit? I know its not an ideal world and you cant go far without bethesda methods
but in your heart you must understand that you are defending the wrong side (the evil one =P)?

Bethesda is like Hollywood where Blockbusters always get a happy ending because in the pre-screening
the majority of the audience didnt like the "you can't have it all" ending...
Oblivion is a major example of this: automaticlly generated world, with practicly NO designer input, a difficutly level so low
that even 10 years olds can manage it, 10-16 year old audience where none read a decent novel in their lives... well, very few read Harry
Potter... (Not to mention the blantant lies (no exageration) before release - which add to the Bethhate that I have because they rape my
nostalgic feelings)
The list can go on. Its obvious at whom they aim. If Fallout was chess then Oblivion was hitting someone in the face in a streetfight
and Foblivion might turn out to be checkers...

I would understand defending Bioware because of the last bit of decency and honesty they have while being a major dev but Beth...
I know its buisness and you have to fucking pay for food to survive but how can you in your heart defend them knowing better...

 

[Naked Ninja]

@BethesdaLove :

That was a joke right? For Teh Lulz?

Defending the logic of a simple design feature has nothing to do with "picking sides", which is a childish concept to begin with. That's my point, most of you have picked the Anti-Bethesda "side" and are viewing every single fucking thing through that lens of hatred. Even features that don't deserve it.

It's making you crazy. Seriously. Get a grip.

 

[Sodomy]

Most people aren't actually looking for a "workbench-simulator minigame" where you have to keep track of nails and springs collected.

I dunno, Arcanum seems pretty popular around here...

Also, Gothic did great things by NOT abstracting the extra inventory step out. Want to forge a sword? Get a metal ingot, heat it up in the forge, pound on it on the anvil, and dip it in water to cool the blade.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Was Arcanum's system crafting or repairing? Repairing isn't generally as exciting as making new shit. Ditto for Gothic.

Please give me a good example using repairing, specifically, to prove your point.

 

[BethesdaLove]

It seemed to me, from 2 posts of yours, that you defend Beth. I'm sorry that I jumped to conclusions.

Features that dont deserve it are overshadowed by other things.. -.- And btw, its hard to not see everything through the lens of hatred. Its like if somebody beats you up real fucking bad and then gives you a cookie and says "im sorry..." and you expect me to say "its aawwritee, your new hairstyle looks good btw..."

 

[Naked Ninja]

I dunno, maybe I just have thicker skin but releasing a mediocre game, even when you promised it was going to be good (wait, don't all devs and in fact TV ads promise that their product will be, like, orgasmically awesome?) doesn't rank up there with beating the shit out of my person. I have a hard time relating to that sheer hatred.

 

[Sodomy]

Was Arcanum's system crafting or repairing? Repairing isn't generally as exciting as making new shit. Ditto for Gothic.

I thought that "removing interface steps is good" was the basis for your argument, not "repair is a second class system that doesn't deserve respect".

While I can't name any games that handle repair that way (although in Arcanum, a few recepies DO deal with fixing broken items), that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

Also, I'd argue that repairing is no less exciting. Ever had a gun jam on you in System Shock 2? Remember the joy you felt when you fixed it?

 

[Vault Dweller]

However, there is a difference between taking items apart and using best parts, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly style, and stacking items.

You mean taking bits from the various items and combining them into one working item?

Yes.

It's not a different mechanic, it's an abstraction. And a perfectly acceptable one.

It's a lazy and shitty mechanic. I'm not saying that FO3 should have a repair system, but since Bethesda decided to throw one in, I expect something more than a half-assed, the most idiotic way to represent repair.

How about a combat system where you click on enemies and they die?

How about a banana fudge milkshake? It makes as much sense as that comparison.

No. Bethesda skipped the "good part" and jumped straight to the end. Stack two helmets and now you have one better helmet! The analogy works.

Seriously, are you implying that removing the intermediate gui step of Item->parts->add parts to item is somehow equivalent to combining all the combat mechanics in an RPG into a single click?

Don't exaggerate.

It's got nothing to do with gui, just like combat is more than gui steps of targeting and clicking.

It could have been fun. You could have been shown how things work, explained about different parts, and given a goal of looking for best parts (best manufacturers). Maybe even had to make some decisions, like using a more powerful amplifier that overheats quickly vs rapid fire systems that lack power. Overall, it would have been a great way to show the scavenging and fix-it nature of the wastelands. Oh well...

Oh please. Repair mechanics? Clicking is a gameplay mechanic now?

Yes, Gareth. Mechanics is a fancy word for clicking.

In all the polls on repairing conducted, people, even here, mostly dislike it as a tedious chore.

They dislike degradable equipment, especially when it's combined with non-existent (must take to shops to repair) or idiotic repair mechanics.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, Gothic did great things by NOT abstracting the extra inventory step out. Want to forge a sword? Get a metal ingot, heat it up in the forge, pound on it on the anvil, and dip it in water to cool the blade.

Which was fun.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In unrelated news:

http://www.aeropause.com/2008/08/pax-08 ... pressions/

"If you liked Oblivion, you will like Fallout 3. If you liked Fallout 1 and 2, you will like Fallout 3.

Because, they have done an AMAZING job of melding RPG elements from the originals into Fallout 3. The old stats like Action Points and Perks are, of course, adapted for the new 3D platform, but far from feeling tacked on, I felt very much the same as I did when I played Fallout for the first time."

 

[Naked Ninja]

Remember how disappointed you were that, in SS2, repairing that gun didn't involve a whole bunch of inventory fiddling? No? You don't remember that feeling?

I thought that "removing interface steps is good"

No, removing pointless interface steps is good. With crafting you're choosing where to spend your scarce resources, it's more of a fun choice. Repairing is not as exciting as making a new cool item in the first place. To have your items degrade and then have to play mix 'n match with the nuts and bolts in order to just repair that items functionality....sounds enthralling.

While I can't name any games that handle repair that way

I wonder why?

that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

So, if it is a hypothetical system that hasn't ever been done...why does Bethesda deserve so much bile for not doing it either? What exactly are they dumbing down there, a purely theoretical system you imagine might work but have no proof of? Wow, those bastards. Hatred+1!

Also, I'd argue that repairing is no less exciting. Ever had a gun jam on you in System Shock 2? Remember the joy you felt when you fixed it?

You just described combat surprises as being exciting, not the actual process you took to repair the item. Convince me that playing inventory micromanagement with nuts and bolts would have enhanced that feeling for you.

 

[BethesdaLove]

ASSUMPTIONS ->
Naked Ninja, you are to rational. Its TEH interwebz for gods sake... =P
You see, VD passionatly hates features which he thinks are lame and because in real life he cant change the world to the better ^^ he bashes them here, the only single place on the interwebs not completly overrun by morons... Its called venting, but you seem to do it otherwise.. maybe beating up children? ;P

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

In unrelated news:

http://www.aeropause.com/2008/08/pax-08 ... pressions/

"they have done an AMAZING job of melding RPG elements from the originals into Fallout 3. The old stats like Action Points and Perks are, of course, adapted for the new 3D platform, but far from feeling tacked on, I felt very much the same as I did when I played Fallout for the first time."

 

[Naked Ninja]

@ VD : That's a modification/crafting system, not a repair system. Repairing is not the art of customizing/pimping out your sniper rifle.

 

[MasPingon]

NN, you are such a noob for an indie dev

 

[Darth Roxor]

Naked Ninja is right.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Always.

 

[Sodomy]

Remember how disappointed you were that, in SS2, repairing that gun didn't involve a whole bunch of inventory fiddling? No? You don't remember that feeling?

Actually, it did. You had to go into your inventory, drag a repair tool on top of it, and play that minigame with the nodes.

No, removing pointless interface steps is good. With crafting you're choosing where to spend your scarce resources, it's more of a fun choice. Repairing is not as exciting as making a new cool item in the first place. To have your items degrade and then have to play mix 'n match with the nuts and bolts in order to just repair that items functionality....sounds enthralling.

And why is choosing where to spend scarce resources when repairing not a fun choice?

I wonder why?

Because repairable degradable equipment is far more common in FPS/RPG hybrids than it is in pure RPGs, and because it's hard to come up with a scenario where playing auto mechanic on a sword makes any sense.

So, if it is a hypothetical system that hasn't ever been done...why does Bethesda deserve so much bile for not doing it either? What exactly are they dumbing down there, a purely theoretical system you imagine might work but have no proof of? Wow, those bastards. Hatred+1!

Well, this is the first repair system I've ever seen that doesn't require some "repair" resource to use...

You just described combat surprises as being exciting, not the actual process you took to repair the item. Convince me that playing inventory micromanagement with nuts and bolts would have enhanced that feeling for you.

Remember that time you found a maintenance tool so you could finally repair that gun that had been broken for the last fifteen minutes?