Rant: Why Fantasy RPGs Suck

[Kraszu]

. He probably goes around saying that Earth is flat just to get attention.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in ... ic=11211.0

 

[MountainWest]

I think the expectation of many CODEX members for an RPG is a game in which there is more to it (paths through it) than just killing things with ever more impressive weapons and more impressive clothing/armour.

God damn narrow-minded elitist! Now repeat after me:


YAY!.......................| NARROW-MINDED ELITIST CRAP!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Choices...................| Consequences
Combat...................| Tactical Combat
Voiced Dialogue.........| Dialogue Options
Skills.......................| Non-Combat Skills
Quests....................| #solutions > 1
Factions...................| Exclusive Factions
Ãœber Loot.................| Plausible loot
Cool Cut-scenes.........| Consistency
Evil antagonist...........| Antagonist
Twitch.....................| Thought
l337 graphics.............| Sufficient graphics
Simplicity..................| Depth
Action......................| Role-playing
Chosen One..............| Anything Else
Party members...........| Conflicts

 

[Nog Robbin]

I wonder how well a new RPG would sell if you genuinely did have "foozles" to kill, a faction called "fed-ex" to join, and miscellaneous "widgets" and "thingies" to trade in?
Of course, to keep the challenge, the foozles could all have name prefixes or suffixes, but essentially be the same creature.

 

[The_Pope]

I can't understand why anyone would play an RPG for combat alone. FPSs do it better in every way. Thats why I want RPGs to have Choice & Consequence, original setting, interesting characters, good dialogue and the like.

When I just want senseless violence, I'll minigun strogg. Not roll dice at foozles.

 

[Texas Red]

I can't understand why anyone would play an RPG for combat alone. FPSs do it better in every way. Thats why I want RPGs to have Choice & Consequence, original setting, interesting characters, good dialogue and the like.

When I just want senseless violence, I'll minigun strogg. Not roll dice at foozles.

Thats what Ive been asking myself. As I said before ARPGs dont have the combat of action games and neither do they have the RP in them. This is a retarded combination and for some reason popular. How is it fun to click click click without any thought? At least they could have done a party based tactical combat. Maybe even turn based but mentioning this to a marketing suit would make me end up burned or hanged.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Really nice rant VD & Section8, have to agree with all of it. Now I remember why I come here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

None of that changes the fact that Fallout and PS:T are good games, no more no less. The environment does not make it better.

So, you are saying that there is no difference between an interesting & original setting and a generic & bland setting?

Nor does "dialogue choices" or multiple paths necessarily make an RPG a better game.

How do you role-play in a game without dialogue choices and multiple path? The only difference would be the manner in which you slay monsters, which makes you an "action RPG" fan. We are all very happy for you, of course, but keep in mind that there is more to RPGs than action.

In your extremely narrow view of CRPGs you may personally think that is of the utmost imprortance, but I do not think that they are a critical elelemnt.

In my extremely narrow view of FPSs I also think that being able to kill monsters is of the utmost importance, but that's probably the elitism in me talking.

For me, PS:T was interesting for a while, but then it just seemed too dull once you were into it a while. I certainly liked it, and agree it is a good game, but nowhere near my top.

So, what are your 5-10 top RPGs and why?

RPGCODEX is interesting because most of the people here, such as yourself, have such specific and narrow opinions of RPGS and are so extreme in your views.

Have you seen our top 10 RPGs list? The Bloodlines review? My Gothic 3 review?

It does make for some good amusement, but in the end you guys say the same things over and over and over and there is really no substance behind what you say either.

Unlike your thoughtful posts, of course.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you drop the PC into an exotic world, you have to explain the gap between the knowledge that the character is supposed to have of his surroundings, and the lack thereof on the part of the player. This often tends to lead to either a "Stranger in a Strange Land" scenario (that is one thing that Morrowind actually pulled off decently), or the amnesia one, which is itself a tired old clichee.

Not necessarily. In many cases the lack of this knowledge is understandable. Let's assume that you are an American, and I'll send you on a quest to Iran. How knowledgeable about your surroundings would you expect to be? Or the Soviet Russia?

How does that not qualify as a "Stranger in a Strange Land" scenario? You're (secretly) playing as a Superstar (not a "stranger") in a Strange Land?

My point was that you shouldn't expect a perfect knowledge of the surroundings from your character, unless the game takes place in one town and never takes you anywhere. I underlined the part that I replied to.

 

[Relayer71]

Interesting read, all good points.

Not to turn this into a "Morrowind love-fest" but I really agree with The Dude. I think Bethesda really nailed the aspect of a unique setting without most of the typical bullshit and their art team really did a great job.

Morrowind along with Planescape are probably the only PC RPGs I've played that truly gave you this sense of marvel and wonder and made you feel as if you were really in these alien landscapes (if only MW's gameplay was a few notches better). And or course Arcanum, Wizardry 8 and Fallout had unique settings as well. But as far as the most original story and plot devices, Planescape has yet to be outdone.

I don't understand why newer games have to be so cliched. I understand that in NWN 2's case there are rules and lore that need to be followed but does every fucking DnD game (Planescape nothwithstanding) have to follow the same foundation, the same format? It's bad enough that challenge is severely lacking in most new RPGs but do we have to suffer through the same old boring, underwhelming and ridiculously predictable story elements?

 

[IV Flavia]

This thread is pointless. Why the hell do devs today need to make any original fantasy settings when players can make up their own(apocryphal) backstories and fanfic with characters that look like FF concept art and My Chemical Romance rejects? This isn't Soviet Russia, teh game doesn't have to roleplay you.

 

[Shoelip]

This thread is pointless. Why the hell do devs today need to make any original fantasy settings when players can make up their own(apocryphal) backstories and fanfic with characters that look like FF concept art and My Chemical Romance rejects? This isn't Soviet Russia, teh game doesn't have to roleplay you.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that developers shouldn't make creative or original games because players can right fan fiction? I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection.

Or was that just over disguised sarcasm?

 

[IV Flavia]

This thread is pointless. Why the hell do devs today need to make any original fantasy settings when players can make up their own(apocryphal) backstories and fanfic with characters that look like FF concept art and My Chemical Romance rejects? This isn't Soviet Russia, teh game doesn't have to roleplay you.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that developers shouldn't make creative or original games because players can right fan fiction? I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection.

Or was that just over disguised sarcasm?

Definitely the latter. Although reflecting on it, it does raise a question of if devs truly need to design unique settings when players are capable of conjuring up their own. On one hand, it is sparking player imagination in trying to expand upon their PC and his/her universe in their own unique way. On the other, fanfic can be (and tends to be) completely ridiculous and usually doesn't adhere to the lore of the game setting.

Not that I agree with that. I still prefer strong, well-developed settings because it indicates commitment and quality from the developerss. But whatever.

 

[RK47]

If they could just move away from the standard dwarf and elves instead focus on Human kingdoms at war with each other that'd be great. Let's just take away magic and give it to just 1% of the populace. I never liked the idea of magic being something like a bazooka. Which is why the popular online reference to a dmging spell now is 'nuke.'

Don't let the players play a mage. Instead force him to learn stealth, combat and diplomacy to advance on his goals.

Toss him into a world where he could choose side and move up rank within faction etc. I don't see why it can't make the fantasy genre more interesting. Assasination, leading a raid, diplomacy, stealing artifacts, there are just plenty of shit devs could implement to make power play more interesting.

 

[Oarfish]

Toss him into a world where he could choose side and move up rank within faction etc. I don't see why it can't make the fantasy genre more interesting. Assasination, leading a raid, diplomacy, stealing artifacts, there are just plenty of shit devs could implement to make power play more interesting.

Most of my interesting P&P experiences arose from conflict between players. The potential for serious RP opportunities within small groups seems continuously overlooked by devs.

And no, I don't count obsidianware's crappy points -> more dialogue options as RP in any way. All that does is encourage the player to smarm party members in the hope of getting at content as deliberately pissing them off doesn't result in anything interesting.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I say hang the guys who want to "do away with magic". Screw that, thats the main reason I like fantasy settings. Otherwise, why play in a fantasy setting, why not just play in a real world setting? Thats like playing in a Super Hero setting and not letting the player be an actual super hero, or a sci-fi setting where the player isn't allowed any sci-fi weapons or gadgets. Lame-o.

 

[MisterStone]

I say hang the guys who want to "do away with magic". Screw that, thats the main reason I like fantasy settings. Otherwise, why play in a fantasy setting, why not just play in a real world setting? Thats like playing in a Super Hero setting and not letting the player be an actual super hero, or a sci-fi setting where the player isn't allowed any sci-fi weapons or gadgets. Lame-o.

Have you ever read any decent fantasy that wasn't inspired by D&D or its imitators?

You can have magic, and all kinds of crazy fantasy shit, without making magic so common that any jackass can shoot green energy beams out of his fingers at will. If you must have a setting where magic is common, then the setting needs to reflect that... none of this "exact copy of high middle ages Europe except there is magic everywhere" bullshit.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I actually far more dislike settings where mages are exceedingly rare than those where they are a bit more common. Why? Because that more common nature creates checks and balances in the worlds power structures. I hate it when there are like 5 uber powerful mages in the setting, and they can pretty much run around doing whatever the hell they want, because no one but another of the uber beings can stop them. It makes these characters the core movers and shakers in the setting, makes them control/influence everything. Its the Sith syndrome. Something nasty is going on in the Star Wars setting? It's got to be the Sith again! Why? Well, because the Sith are the Uber bad guys. Because the Force is rare and utterly uber, the setting revolves around the moves of the Jedi and Sith. Yawn, boring.

You make magic slightly more common, you level the playing field more, give the other characters a chance to shine. I'm not saying "every jackass can shoot fire from their ". Certainly not! If everyone is special, no one is, and magic is no longer magic or interesting. But the PC should definately be one of the percentage of the population who is gifted enough to be able to do magic.

 

[Suicidal]

Hi everyone! Been lurking around these forums for a while and finally decided to join the fun :D

An interesting rant, VD. I couldn't agree more. Instead of trying something new the devs today just want to focus on the same lame-ass cliche stuff over and over again.
There is so much more that can be done with fantasy settings - even the same old Forgotten Realms would not seem so generic if the game was set in other areas/regions of the world, instead of the ones overpopulated with elves and dwarves and the story didn't involve killing a big bad ancient evil who wants to destroy teh world, as some people here already mentioned. Unfortunately, this is not what the public usually wants - one of the reasons a lot of people (mainly biowhore fans) didn't like Planescape is the unusual alien world and the lack of elves.

I also like RK47's idea about not giving the main character magic powers but a wide variety of melee/ranged/thief calsses instead. Maybe in such a setting the main character COULD obtain magic by performing a ritual or something, but the ability to play a mage right in the begining of the game should be off-limits.

And so ends my first post. I am waiting patiently for your greeting cards with attached tubgirl and meatspin links

 

[RK47]

It had nothing to do with 'balance' or 'overused plot device' I'm just saying I'm tired of seeing magic as primarily as 'damage' spam. AKA the new popular term 'nuke'

"You make magic slightly more common, you level the playing field more, give the other characters a chance to shine"

You just want a handgrenade to wtfpwn a whole room of spawns and then sit down 6 second to recover mana / re-memorize the spells.

 

[Naked Ninja]

No, I don't. Jumping to conclusions is a bad habit, you should work on that. I simply like magic, the concept of magic. I always have, always will. Some people like WW2 stories, thats good for them. I like magic. Its not a desire to "wtfpawn" everything, its simply a love for the concept itself. I dislike the action-RPG style of magic too, where magic is just another type of damage that you spam, and mages send off barrages of fireballs that do the same damage as a sword. If you make magic as common as a sword swing you remove the "magic" from it.


I far prefer the DnD pnp magic system. Mages can't cast a lot of spells per day, but when they do, it can turn the tide of a battle/encounter. Magic is powerful and interesting, and the mechanics ensure that spells aren't spammed, unless you do a NWN thing and allow the player to sleep every 5 minutes. Magic is powerful, but with significant restrictions, balancing the system.

A setting where magic is all but unstoppable and most people can't do it just opens too many questions of balance and believability. In such a system, if mages aren't controlling everything, I have to wonder "why not"? Often, there is a stupid cop-out answer, like Gandalf and the wizards aren't allowed to use their god-like powers to interfere in the affairs of the mortals, blah blah sneer.

 

[Merkaal]

To look at the big picture, I doubt you could squeeze much true originality out of any product without first eradicating the "human element" and doing away with the various common archetypes that run through it.

An interesting idea: Imagine a gameworld without any humanoids whatsoever. A world without human language and subsequently without human logical-rational dichotomies, such as morality and even (I dare say it) thought itself. Now that would be a right mindfuck or two and be impossible to execute, most of all in a RPG. Since it's basically accepted that it's our very rationality that allows us to make informed choices, running on instinctual autopilot would no doubt eliminate the possibility of roleplaying altogether; but I digress.

The high fantasy setting has a place but the lack of any real culture dulls the experience for me. Within the confines of language and thought, the possibilities for creating interesting worlds are still virtually unlimited. The forms of life available for creation exceed the simplistic notions of good and evil, wealth or poverty and 2-bit emotions we are taught to feel. The prime directives of any sentient beings can be fucked with to no possible end as to seem complete and utter nonsense to us, as ours would to them. It is definitely a case of the limits of a language being the limits of a mind.

Now, to be able to connect on a human level with complete and utter nonsense - that would be a sexy enlightening RPG experience. And slightly insane.

 

[Inziladun]

A setting where magic is all but unstoppable and most people can't do it just opens too many questions of balance and believability. In such a system, if mages aren't controlling everything, I have to wonder "why not"? Often, there is a stupid cop-out answer, like Gandalf and the wizards aren't allowed to use their god-like powers to interfere in the affairs of the mortals, blah blah sneer.

You're kind of overlooking the possibility of magic being present (and rare) and NOT being uber powerful. What's wrong with having magic be a very subtle force that is manipulated through rituals and meditation and all that crap. Slowly influencing, but never anything as abrupt as raining down fires from the heavens. These "mages" if you will, would be just as mortal as everyone else and if you encounter one in combat, there's a good chance he won't put up much of a fight.

This is a kind implementation of magic i'd love to see in an RPG for once.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I'm not overlooking the possibility, I just don't really consider it real "fantasy". If magics influence is barely discernable from a pure non-fantasy setting, it barely warrants the term. Why bother making it fantasy in that case at all?

But if you have powerful magical entities in your setting, dragons or whatever, and humanity is by and large completely non-magical, come up with a good reason why those entities aren't ruling the world besides "they just don't feel like it". I enjoy it when its based on the real world model, ie a country can't launch nukes at another one because then they'll respond with their own in retaliation. Checks and balances = realistic. A lop-sided setting with mage demi-gods vrs medieval peasants is arb. Especially when said demi-gods aren't controlling everything. Thus, to me, for realism mages need to be slightly more common in the medium power level range.

 

[psycojester]

You're kind of overlooking the possibility of magic being present (and rare) and NOT being uber powerful. What's wrong with having magic be a very subtle force that is manipulated through rituals and meditation and all that crap. Slowly influencing, but never anything as abrupt as raining down fires from the heavens. These "mages" if you will, would be just as mortal as everyone else and if you encounter one in combat, there's a good chance he won't put up much of a fight.

Kind of like the Wit and the Skill in Robin Hobbes 5 duchies books?

 

[Kingston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACoZQYJrqbY

Awesome!