Recommend me something!

[Skittles]

I think you missed my point. Bolas are basically a cheat for the player - I played through AoD several times, and I can't recall anyone who uses them except the final Basil fight vs TG enforcer. If they were more common, if every enemy who uses nets used bolas instead, you'd see just how ridiculous they are. If you hit a bola you get 100% to hit vs the arena champion for 2 rounds. AoD(and DR) is good combat wise because it is very symmetrical in terms of what enemies can do to you and you to them, bolas stick out quite a bit as a player only toy and I don't think there is any need for that.

The 3 Barbari fight is actually one of the harder ones if you have 0 DEF. I never tried without weapon skills and with defensive skills, that combination just doesn't appeal to me, but if you can win combat with 0/0, you sure can with 0/x.

No, I agree with your point and disagree with Jason Liang, who also seems to have forgotten his point. His contention is "AoD's combat is shit because bolas exist" and I say "bolas are shit, but they don't make the combat automatically shit." That the game would be fine or even better off without them or with them nerfed is something nobody in this thread has disagreed with so far; I don't need to be convinced that they're cheesy, but that they trivialize combat and allow a character with no combat skills to waltz through a bulk of the game's combat encounters.

To the barbari point, he's maintaining that a 0 def. character can use bolas or one of the other "broken" tactics/tools he's mentioned to reliably get through that fight, without counting on good RNG rolls and save/load abuse. So far he's shown that a character with a middling defense rating and significant CS investment can, after a few hours of player drilling involving save/loading, beat them using a combination of these "broken" tactics.

And again, I agree with you: that doesn't sound very appealing to me. But that's the only way he can have fun with this game, so its combat is shit.

 

[Jason Liang]

To the barbari point, he's maintaining that a 0 def. character can use bolas or one of the other "broken" tactics/tools he's mentioned to reliably get through that fight, without counting on good RNG rolls and save/load abuse. So far he's shown that a character with a middling defense rating and significant CS investment can, after a few hours of player drilling involving save/loading, beat them using a combination of these "broken" tactics.

And again, I agree with you: that doesn't sound very appealing to me. But that's the only way he can have fun with this game, so its combat is shit.

And you can't see that AoD has shit combat since you think beating the Arena with a dumbfuck ax bro is actually a satisfying challenge.

"I rolled up an axe 10/10/8/6/6/4 murder murder power armor murder murder murder dur dur dur" Wow! Thanks for sharing! Did you have 15 hours of fun clicking until you got to the end? Look, screen says you were an Arena Champ! YOU BEAT AoD!

I don't know what you mean by "player drilling." If you mean playing the game so you get better at it and learn something worth sharing about it- well, duh. Don't make it sound like I save-scummed for a crit-crit-crit start, as you can see with strategy and tactics you can either beat this fight with this build or come close to beating it unlike your claim that its impossible for a non-combat build.

In the Barbari example, I got 1 somewhat shitty crit from that "significant CS investment." So fuck that idiotic qualifier. I put 6 in CS for fun, not because it's actually t3ch that I am using. If you think a build with only 5 dodge and no weapon skills is a combat build, go fuck yourself.

 

[Jason Liang]

Besides that, when bati and Parabalus actually tried your bow centric builds, they found that you had exaggerated its superiority and only became effective once they'd made decent actual investments in combat skills.

bati posted some like

Even with 5 dodge the fight versus Miletidas' ambush is nuts, as is the fight versus girl and her two bodyguards that try to rob you. I solved the raiders + outpost with diplomacy because it's rage inducing trying to complete them with low hit chance and 4 CON.

and

Goddamn, axe + block is bulldozer mode. I'm not sure I'll be able to go back to dodge builds after this.

but since he's clearly first time playing AoD there wasn't any reason to call him out on it.

On the other hand, you encouraged him

Goddamn, axe + block is bulldozer mode. I'm not sure I'll be able to go back to dodge builds after this.

Fuck yeah.

and your ignorance is offensive and harmful. Playing AoD through once with an axe murder bro and posting like you actually have something worth sharing about it is offensive and harmful. I never wanted to be known as or claimed to be an "AoD guru" but you're giving new players terrible advice based on your ignorance.

It sounds like bati took your advice, got his end screen and his 15 hours of jolly from AoD and maybe that's all he was looking for, since he seems to have moved on. I do hope that one day he plays the game with a different path and experiences all the content he missed, like say the fucking backstory. This game has a skyship you know.

My point was and is that AoD has shit combat. To believe that AoD is a good rpg and recommend it for its combat is ignorant. AoD is a pretty good rpg, but what makes it a pretty good rpg isn't its combat at all. AoD is an interesting rpg because it tries very hard and stretches itself to be enjoyable for a variety of rpg gamers. A lot of gamers are just like you, they want to roleplay an ax murder and take out their issues on AoD's npcs. It's actually all very Westworld: "Our hosts are here for YOU." The enemies that you gleefully butcher act like they're dangerous and the game does a good job of pretending it has good combat, but if you look closely enough you'd realize actually they're gimps and the game has shit combat. But AoD has done its job and provided you who enjoy shitty combat while pretending its good combat your 15 hours of fun. You wouldn't actually have as much fun if the enemies acted like the gimps they actually are, and you wouldn't have all the axe murder bros plastering their cookie-cutter exact ending character sheets and bragging like they made the game their bitch. So it's fulfilled your fantasy.

But I also find AoD an interesting game to visit and think about, what works about it and what doesn't work about it. Sure, this game isn't a true open ended rpg, and it has a linear structure. But AoD *does* have a lot of missable content, which is notable. In fact, quite meta, it even defines its missable content ingame as "Lore" and encourages players to play as a "loremaster" to try to experience all the missable content. I think this meta-level of rpg design will end up being 5 years from now AoD's most significant innovation.

 

[Skittles]

Sorry for enjoying the game, I didn't realize the harm I was doing encouraging people to experiment with builds instead of playing like you want them to.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I didn't discover bolas until that late game fight in the Basil quest. Never actually used them. AoD combat is fine.

If you don't know what bola choke is, of course you think AoD combat is fine. AoD combat would be fine if the game didn't have shit like bola choke.

So AoD combat is fine but there's that one optional item you hate, which means that:

My point was and is that AoD has shit combat. To believe that AoD is a good rpg and recommend it for its combat is ignorant. AoD is a pretty good rpg, but what makes it a pretty good rpg isn't its combat at all. AoD is an interesting rpg because it tries very hard and stretches itself to be enjoyable for a variety of rpg gamers. A lot of gamers are just like you, they want to roleplay an ax murder and take out their issues on AoD's npcs. It's actually all very Westworld: "Our hosts are here for YOU." The enemies that you gleefully butcher act like they're dangerous and the game does a good job of pretending it has good combat, but if you look closely enough you'd realize actually they're gimps and the game has shit combat. But AoD has done its job and provided you who enjoy shitty combat while pretending its good combat your 15 hours of fun. You wouldn't actually have as much fun if the enemies acted like the gimps they actually are, and you wouldn't have all the axe murder bros plastering their cookie-cutter exact ending character sheets and bragging like they made the game their bitch. So it's fulfilled your fantasy.

Bolas' purpose is to help weak players who can't even beat the first fight and give up in frustration. They have absolutely no chance of getting past harder fights like the mine so the bolas allow them to take one guy out for a couple of turns, which neither breaks the game nor turns it into a cakewalk. Either way, the idea that one optional item ruins the entire combat system is kinda silly.

 

[Jason Liang]

I said 2 different things-
* Longbows are the most OP weapon. King of head shots.
* With a longbow you can do all of the hard fights in Teron and Maadoran without investing in the bow skill until the end of act 2.

I didn't say that you could or should do both at the same time. Obviously if you put 0 points in bow and try to head shot, it's going to miss most of the time. It isn't a "magical" weapon that somehow has super head shot accuracy. Its accuracy is the exact same as every other generic weapon in the game. Your weapon has no effect on accuracy.

Instead of telling new players that they need to play an axe bro to do fights in this game, I'm trying to show them that that's bullshit, you can easily do the fights in this game with a hybrid. It doesn't mean that I recommend first time playing through the game doing the fights with no weapon skill, I'm just showing them that it's possible. Hopefully it's clear that my recommendation for a first time playthrough is to play a hybrid with an OP weapon like bow, sword, axe or hammer and improve your weapon skill normally but judiciously. If you have trouble hitting, increase your weapon skill. That's intuitive right?

If you play through this game with a hybrid bow build, you'll breeze through 95% of the game's fights and have a lot of jollies head shotting the poor fucks. And you'll be able to see a bit more of the game too.

 

[Skittles]

So AoD combat is fine but there's that one optional item you hate

Ugh, your ignorance is offensive and harmful. Alchemy, artefacts, longbows, shield bashing, knockdowns, skeggoxes, scimitars, shadhavars, sledghammers, spike clubs, shamshirs, crossbows and defensive skils are all OP and make the game irredeemable dogshit and anyone who disagrees is a CoD-bro moron.

 

[Jason Liang]

Either way, the idea that one optional item ruins the entire combat system is kinda silly.

Well, that's why I listed everything else too.

If you removed the choke and knockdown mechanics (which you gimped the AI to not even use properly)- then you'd have a game that deserves to be known for its great combat.

You must be new, we're pretty elitist about rpgs around here

Bolas' purpose is to help weak players who can't even beat the first fight and give up in frustration. They have absolutely no chance of getting past harder fights like the mine so the bolas allow them to take one guy out for a couple of turns, which neither breaks the game nor turns it into a cakewalk.

The problem is that, as this thread demonstrates, most of those players don't know bolas even exist until they're done with the game. Obviously all the hints that say "use nets and bolas" get ignored, so maybe you should translate the word bola into English as "Darth Vader force choke". Or another idea is you could demonstrate bola choke on players in an early fight so they are aware of the tactic without having to read text.

You also price them too cheap; that's confusing. 48 gold? Must not be anything. If you increased the price of bolas to 500 gold, new players would buy them and try them out. And it would explain why Carrinas isn't handing bolas out to IG recruits like they were Trojans.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think you missed my point. Bolas are basically a cheat for the player - I played through AoD several times, and I can't recall anyone who uses them except the final Basil fight vs TG enforcer. If they were more common, if every enemy who uses nets used bolas instead, you'd see just how ridiculous they are. If you hit a bola you get 100% to hit vs the arena champion for 2 rounds. AoD(and DR) is good combat wise because it is very symmetrical in terms of what enemies can do to you and you to them, bolas stick out quite a bit as a player only toy and I don't think there is any need for that.

The reason is simple - you're usually outnumbered, which isn't symmetrical either. Since we have no difficulty levels, weaker players need help managing crowds. When you're fighting against 4-6 opponents, removing one guy for 2 turns isn't a big deal. That's what the bolas are for. Using it on the player's character would mean instant reload that's why the enemies don't use them.

I've never used them myself because I don't need to. Clearly, our friend Jason is very bothered by them so we can definitely take them into consideration. So how would you tweak bolas? Removing the choke and knockdown is pointless (might as well remove bolas entirely). Lowering THC would simply force the player to reload 10 times which isn't fun. We can, for example, split it into normal and critical effects where only a critical would choke someone.

If you removed the choke and knockdown mechanics (which you gimped the AI to not even use properly)- then you'd have a game that deserves to be known for its great combat.

Keep in mind that you are an experienced player and at this point I'm more concerned about not removing the only tool that can help struggling players than removing something you can ignore on your own.

 

[Lurker King]

If they were more common, if every enemy who uses nets used bolas instead, you'd see just how ridiculous they are.

If my grandmother were alive, she would be the oldest woman in the planet. That's a big if. But bolas aren't common. In fact, they actually add more variety to combat system, so they are fine.

 

[Lurker King]

And you can't see that AoD has shit combat.

Of course, the combat of AoD is fucking awful. A good combat system can be found in a deep cRPGs like Shadowruuuuuuuuuuun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The game is so hardcore and challenging that is on the list of best iOS games for iPhone. That's like grognard stuff, best of the best. You don't even need mouse and shit.

 

[Skittles]

So how would you tweak bolas? Removing the choke and knockdown is pointless (might as well remove bolas entirely).

Honest discussion, I think bolas might work as something that would prevent an enemy from taking move actions and allow you to retreat safely without reducing their defence or preventing them from attacking. Keeping an enemy from engaging so you aren't ganged up on or allowing you to reposition seem like they'd be great for folks struggling with combat without being something quite so powerful.

Is that something you guys experimented with in the earlier iterations of the game? My memory's getting a little foggy on the changes to bolas & nets during development.

 

[Jason Liang]

If you removed the choke and knockdown mechanics (which you gimped the AI to not even use properly)- then you'd have a game that deserves to be known for its great combat.

Keep in mind that you are an experienced player and at this point I'm more concerned about not removing the only tool that can help struggling players than removing something you can ignore on your own.

Not just crowd control; most IG path players (seems like a popular choice for first time players) would find fighting Hazma with their build too difficult if they had to fight him fairly.

I'd probably say just make bolas a little more realistic. I like that you can't bola someone next to you; but you also shouldn't be able to throw a bola accurately from so far away either, so make its range limited to exactly 2 spaces away.

But the real problems lie with the choke/ knockdown mechanics. Someone with no xbow skill shouldn't have 100% accuracy on arterial strikes on a knocked down opponent 40 feet away. The simple solution would be to remove knockdown but at least next time make it less OP.

But really, AoD is what it is. Put your energy into the next game- that's the one that will hopefully be the RPG for the ages.

 

[Excidium II]

lmao this dude. If enemies spammed crowd control combat would be obnoxiously bad. It's bad enough reloading after being knocked down by a crossbow right on the first round. (the fuck are those bolts made of anyway).

Nerfing nets and bolas while making it more common would be fine although the game already suffers from having nothing to spend gold on, looting nets and bolas left and right would remove the only things worth buying in stores for many characters.

 

[bati]

Jason Liang actually I went through the game like 5 or 6 times, all but 1 or 1.5 (my very first char was strongly biased towards combat but still had somewhat decent support skills) were with hybrids. And yeah, axe + block is bulldozer mode, try it out with a character that's actually specced for combat and not some 4 or 5 STR hybrid monstrosity. Killing one or two dudes per turn is very common once you reach end of a2 or start of a3 if you have a blue steel / meteor weapons and 9+ STR. Toughest fights in the game were a fucking joke. I was doing more damage with regular swings than your bow build does with headshots on prone targets. Shit, even the crit damage that I've observed on my bow assassin was barely stacking up vs my normal axe damage. And yeah, longbow is a pretty nice hybrid weapon, certainly something I'd pick over other choices but you still have to frequently get creative with CC to get over the low THC, especially early and mid campaign while you're still prioritizing civic skills.

Also, I flew the airship without crashing

edit: for the record, I don't find hybrids particularly enjoyable to play (obviously I hate myself for finishing the game so many times with them). The compromise on combat side means that you have to resort to bombs/bolas/nets a little too often for my taste and it makes the game feel cheap. Using bombs to keep the enemy prone is not tactics, it's cheese. And if I ever decide to replay the game I'll probably drop like 30% of my civic skills and go more meathead instead, it's simply more enjoyable to me.

 

[Jason Liang]

Jason Liang actually I went through the game like 5 or 6 times, all but 1 or 1.5 (my very first char was strongly biased towards combat but still had somewhat decent support skills) were with hybrids. And yeah, axe + block is bulldozer mode, try it out with a character that's actually specced for combat and not some 4 or 5 STR hybrid monstrosity. Killing one or two dudes per turn is very common once you reach end of a2 or start of a3 if you have a blue steel / meteor weapons and 9+ STR. Toughest fights in the game were a fucking joke. I was doing more damage with regular swings than your bow build does with headshots on prone targets. Shit, even the crit damage that I've observed on my bow assassin was barely stacking up vs my normal axe damage. And yeah, longbow is a pretty nice hybrid weapon, certainly something I'd pick over other choices but you still have to frequently get creative with CC to get over the low THC, especially early and mid campaign while you're still prioritizing civic skills.

Also, I flew the airship without crashing

edit: for the record, I don't find hybrids particularly enjoyable to play (obviously I hate myself for finishing the game so many times with them). The compromise on combat side means that you have to resort to bombs/bolas/nets a little too often for my taste and it makes the game feel cheap. Using bombs to keep the enemy prone is not tactics, it's cheese. And if I ever decide to replay the game I'll probably drop like 30% of my civic skills and go more meathead instead, it's simply more enjoyable to me.

Glad that you got to see AoD's lore!

But try the same stats of your Axe/ Block and instead use Bow/ Dodge...

A 10 STR longbow (or even Kemetian bow) head shot damage is insane.

 

[bati]

It's hard to wield the bow with a PA . That's why I'm a fan of axe+block, because it eases up the STR requirements and you still end up with obscene damage. I did want to play a high str bow char though but I'm currently occupied with Arx Fatalis, maybe I'll give that char a shot once I return to AoD. Was thinking something like 8/9/4/8/7/4 with one jar going to con and the other to str. Should be pretty fun since I won't need as much crafting as on axe murderhobo. Or maybe I'll go full retard (literally and figuratively) with 10/9/5/8/4/4.

 

[Turok]

Fallout 3
Fallout 4
Oblivion
Skyrim
Final Fantasy 16

Avoid them all.

Why this post begin asking about a good game to play and found in the last page people talking about bolas (balls).??

Play with their own bolas? :D

 

[Skittles]

Fallout 3
Why this post begin asking about a good game to play and found in the last page people talking about bolas (balls).??

Because autism.

 

[newageofpower]

I made a second post on this thread stating what else I had played and what I was going to try out, but it got wiped out due to moderation time and massive derail ;_;

 

[Jason Liang]

Fallout 3
Why this post begin asking about a good game to play and found in the last page people talking about bolas (balls).??

Because autism.

Choke on my bolas

Someone hijacked the thread since the thread premise was flawed

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Final Fantasy 16

Avoid them all.

Can I borrow your time machine?

 

[bati]

Jason Liang : I took a 9 str 8 dex longbow assassin to Gazennar for lulz and my conclusion is that I'd benefit far more with a melee build if I had the same stats. Still, the extra damage compared to 5 STR version was pretty nice vs high DR targets.

 

[makiavelli747]

So how would you tweak bolas? Removing the choke and knockdown is pointless (might as well remove bolas entirely)

disable head-attack

Either way, the idea that one optional item ruins the entire combat system is kinda silly.

why is that? it is always the smallest things that can ruin entire empire

 

[Jason Liang]

Jason Liang : I took a 9 str 8 dex longbow assassin to Gazennar for lulz and my conclusion is that I'd benefit far more with a melee build if I had the same stats. Still, the extra damage compared to 5 STR version was pretty nice vs high DR targets.

The STR bump from 5 to 9 also increases your head shot critical chance by 20%

I just found out you can put the marculus in a bag

Holy shit, when did this get patched? Marculus so OP