Religion in CRPGs

[Shagnak]

No, the diference of a agnostic and atheist is that a agnostic doed belive there is a higher power..

No, I thought the difference was that an agnostic did not believe in a particular "higher power"/faith, but believes that a higher power could be possible, or atleast unprovable one way or another. (Note: this is different from believing that there definitely is one but they don't know what it is)

Whereas an atheist actively denies the existence at all.
I'm pretty sure that is the definition.

This is why I would describe myself as an agnostic. I have no idea if there is a god or not. I don't believe in him, but that is not to say that I'm sure he does not exist.
I used to consider myself an atheist, but I no longer have the certainty (in my mind) of God's non-existence that I had in my youth. I lack the all-knowing arrogance.
This is a far cry from believing he does exist though. Who the fuck knows.

I think you guys have gone overboard on the technicality of it all; I'm pretty sure these are the "commonly accepted" definitions.

Here, from dictionary.com:

ag·nosti·cal·ly adv.

Word History:
An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

 

[Balor]

Ok, then atheist is someone who denies faith...
Hmm, rather logical.
I mean, I do think that faith of any sort is stupid. It can be good when used in small quatities and on special occasions, but if you will base all your life around it...
I can but quote Lenin: "Religion is opium for the people" .
Well, so, while I DO NOT deny existance of God (again, it's like denying existance of green men on Alpha Centauri - stupid and pointless), I am 100% atheist.

 

[Kraszu]

I mean, I do think that faith of any sort is stupid. It can be good when used in small quatities and on special occasions, but if you will base all your life around it...

Stuipid for you (becose you dont need it). Like you write it can have good elements, i cnow ppl that live normal like atheist but have faith in some God.

I can but quote Lenin: "Religion is opium for the people"

Hah, but he gave an socjalizm in exchange, you dont want competition :wink: .

 

[Balor]

*shakes head*
No, it was Stalin who 'took place of God'.
And, quite likely, he was responcible for Lenin's death.
Stalin's regime had nothing to do with communism or socialism - it was more akin to fashism... at least, in reality, not how it supposed to be 'on paper'.
And, Kraszu, please learn some English before you post on forums, ok? I did. You can too.

 

[Kraszu]

I didn't say any word about the God. The socjalism took place that religion had, beliving in system, it made some ppl blind just like religion. Whit no religion some ppl need to have faith in someting else. - i can agree to your disagree on that.

And, Kraszu, please learn some English before you post on forums, ok?

No.

 

[Elwro]

Again, it comes to 'faith that Gods do not exist'?
That, while less stupid then claiming that they exist - is stupid nonetheless, cause you cannot prove it too.

I thought the whole point of faith was that you couldn't prove anything.

 

[Chefe]

If God's so great why does he allow bad games to be made?

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Because God gave us free will. To interfere with our free will to do evil would destroy our human nature. Love is a choice, and if we were forced to love God, it wouldn't be love.

Whoa

 

[Chefe]

Yes, but if God knows evil how can he be the ultimate good?

I wish RPGs gave us free will.

 

[kingcomrade]

I wish your mom would let go of my cock.

 

[Kraszu]

Because God gave us free will. To interfere with our free will to do evil would destroy our human nature. Love is a choice, and if we were forced to love God, it wouldn't be love.

Whoa

Free will is in determined world, so that not explain God.

wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

 

[Chefe]

I wish your mom would let go of my cock.

You're a clever little bitch, aren't you?

 

[kingcomrade]

Mom jokes make me feel clever and powerful.

 

[Sarvis]

Because God gave us free will. To interfere with our free will to do evil would destroy our human nature. Love is a choice, and if we were forced to love God, it wouldn't be love.

Whoa

God is defined as being Omniscient.

If God can know the future, which is to say be Omniscient, there can be no free will because all choices are known. If you can make a choice that was not already known by God, then God is not Omniscient.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Well, it can be arugued that God stands outside of time and therefore can know everything we do since he does not know these facts "in advance".

More later, but Lost is on.

 

[Chefe]

I'd like to think of his omniscience as that ghost from Arcanum puts it when you ask him to read your future.

He can see all the candles, but doesn't know which one is lit.

Deep stuff.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Muslims think they're religion is the same as ours except we with Muhammad correcting all the lies evil people had put in the Bible for some reason or whatever. So it's the same hell.

The correct quote is "religion is the opiate of the masses", which sounds very silly when you compare t.v viewership to church attendance.

Finally, no system, communism, capitalism, fascism, socialism or whatever has ever existed in its "pure" form, because we don't live in a universe of Platonic essences, we have approximations. And considering that the intellectual framework of fascism was created by former communists, you shouldn't be all too surprised when they wind up being rather similar to each other in practice.

 

[Sarvis]

Well, it can be arugued that God stands outside of time and therefore can know everything we do since he does not know these facts "in advance".

More later, but Lost is on.

Doesn't work, because for something to be knowable it must exist. If everything until the end of time can be known, then that means it has happened from the perspective of either the end of time or the out of time perspective. If it has hapened, then there is no other way it can happen.

<b>Chefe</b>

He can see all the candles, but <b>doesn't know</b> which one is lit.

The definition of omniscience is knowing everything. So if he doesn't know which one is lit, he is not omniscient.

The other option which is an offshoot of that is that every option is chosen and played out in different timelines. (Call it the Sliders theory.) But then you still don't have free will because you actually choose every option at any point. So the you that chose not to study for the math test had no choice, because that you is forced to exist by the nature of every option being chosen.

 

[yipsl]

It would be nice if the way you gained power was in converting people to the worship of your god.

What about a religion that did not allow conversions, like real world Zoroastrianism, or accepted only converts who sought them out, like real world Judaism? Not all religions are missionary like the branches of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.

In the Wheel of Time books, there's very much a non-religion spirituality that knows the Creator exists and knows there's a Blight caused by the Dark One's taint, and that the Dark One is touching the world again as the Last Battle approaches. That sort of world uses the semi-monastic, not at all celibate, world manipulationg female Aes Sedai as the magical class with healing, but people rarely encounter them and rely on female herbal healers, while fearing male Aes Sedai use of the tainted male side of the One Power.

Just finished book eleven "Knife of Dreams" and it's my favorite fantasy series, with Feist's Midkemia a close second, J.V. Jones is good too, but I digress. The only game they did based on the WOT was a FPS where you played either a Forsaken, an Aes Sedai or a Whitecloak after artifacts from the Age of Legends -- which Jordan jokingly tells crazed fans is the age after our own, ie we're behind the WOT's legends and they're behind our legends as ages come, go, get forgotten and return.

Once the series is finished with the next book, there would be ample material for an RPG set after the events in the series in the age after the Last Battle when the Dark One is once more imprisoned, when there are still shadowspawn and when the two halves of the Aes Sedia, male and female, yin and yang are in accord; but where there's still intrigue, shadowspawn and Darkfriends who didn't all die fighting the good guys.

Sort of like the LOTR RPGs set in the Third Age after the defeat of Sauron.

 

[Balor]

Mwhahahaha, you have it already .
winds-of-change.org
It's just a mud, though... and we are trying to figure out how it will happen in the end, heh.

Anyway, I find it strange why everybody believes in same Creator... after all, only 'proof' you can have is One Power... yet, how much can this be counted as 'proof'?

Can nuclear syntesis be considered an ultimate proof that god(s) exist?

And it has the 'TEH ULITMATE EVIL' DO that is aptly named Shai'tan (Shaitan is Satan in Middle east, no more, no less)... it's just cheesy.
Well, ok, let's consider that he don't like how the universe is made, and wants to remake it now he sees fit.
Yet, how stupid you must be to not understand (based on how blasted lands look like) - that such 'remake' make it simply inhabitable for humans?
I mean, why would anyone join him? Ok, even dismissing the fact WHY THE HELL we would honor his agreement with them, the 'live forever' gifts is worthless.
I mean, you'll end up in a heavily fucked-up world with no humans whatsoever. So?
Is such an eternity worth fighting for? Eternity of boredom at the very best? *shudders*

All in all, if not for awesome 'scientific' approach to the 'spellcasting' system and detail of the setting, that would be 'an other Tolkienesque fantasy'.
It is a step in right directions... rather small, though.

Oh well, we have Oldie and Eskov here.
They are not religious, and a real joy to read... no damn clishes about 'TEH ULTIMATE EVIL'.

SC2 comes to mind, btw.
Remember "ULTIMATE EVIL!!!" from there?
That was classic.
And both Ur-Quan (and even Kohr-ah) were not candidates for that role.
Heavily fucked-up, (emagine living first in slavery,then in agony for years) but not evil.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

The thing is, Sarvis, we're all speculating from our perspective. You have no idea what's going on in the future, you can only make inferences (i.e. When the school bell rings, the students will leave the class). God doesn't need to make inferneces because he knows it will happen, but he doesn't make it happen. God is not some puppet-master moving all the strings, he watches over us. He doesn't set up a schedule that says "Note to self: Remember to make sure that I make Sarvis get hit by a milk truck". No, it is you walking in front of the milk truck (or the milk truck hitting you) that causes you to be hit by it, not God. God merely knows about it.

And does exist out of time, he is not mortal and therefore is not bound by time. He created time, he stands outside it. And because he is God, he can comprehend all that goes on in "our" time.

 

[Sarvis]

The thing is, Sarvis, we're all speculating from our perspective. You have no idea what's going on in the future, you can only make inferences (i.e. When the school bell rings, the students will leave the class). God doesn't need to make inferneces because he knows it will happen,

For it to be possible for God to <i>know it will</i> happen, it MUST happen. IF he knows something will happen, and there is any chance that something else could happen then God could be wrong.

It is not God pulling puppet strings, it is a natural extension of his knowledge. For something to be known it must exist.

It might help to remove God from the discussion, so let's instead look at this from a perspective of time travel. (Time travel is impossible, but that's a slightly different discussion. Very slightly.)

Let's say someone from the year 3000 shows up today. What does this mean is true? It means that from their perspective every action that we made is written down in a history book. There existence as beings from 1k years in the future means that the future is actually the "current" time and our decisions have already been made from their perspective.

Now you have to think, we are in what we believe is the "current" time and all the actions of, for example, Napoleon are written down in a textbook somewhere. Is it possible for Napoleon, at this time, to have done something different? No, he's _already_ done what he did. His actions are written from our perspective, even if we can only look back. If we were to travel backwards in time, it would have to be true that we exist... for us to exist time has to have moved beyond Napoleon's time.

Now, back to God.

If, from his perspective, he can see all of Time then it works just the same. For God it is like a history book that starts at "Let there be light" and ends at Armageddon. Everything in between must be already written, because it has to exist for him to see it.



It is not that God is pulling puppet strings, it is simply that for something to be known it has to exist (have happened.)

 

[Naked_Lunch]

For it to be possible for God to know it will happen, it MUST happen. IF he knows something will happen, and there is any chance that something else could happen then God could be wrong.

And it WILL happen because, for God, it already has. He has seen the beginning of the Universe to the end of time, in the blink of an eye, and has comprehended everything about it.

 

[Sarvis]

For it to be possible for God to know it will happen, it MUST happen. IF he knows something will happen, and there is any chance that something else could happen then God could be wrong.

And it WILL happen because, for God, it already has. He has seen the beginning of the Universe to the end of time, in the blink of an eye, and has comprehended everything about it.

Exactly, in which case I cannot have free will because every decision I could possible make <i>has already been made</i> from God's perspective.

 

[Shagnak]

Naked_Lunch = altar boy :shock: